996.1 or 997.1 GT3 CS - changing hands for $ ??

[SimonN]

Back in the day of nations cup we took new MK1 GT3's & turned them into race cars, the mods were full roll cage, cup car shocks with softer springs, slicks, race seat, window net, race steering wheel & a cup car fuel drain fitting in the engine bay thats about it. The motec was data logging only the standard ecu's were swapped at each race meeting with the other gt3 competitors to make sure no one played with them. All mechanicals were standard.

James

Wasn't the nations cup basically a production car class?The reason why yo didn't do more mods was because you weren't allowed. How well would a Nations Cup car have gone against a SuperCup car?

You only have to look at the 991 GT Cup car and compare it with the road going car to see what i am talking about. The differences are significant including a different gearbox with a clutch, different brakes, different and light weight panels. More importantly for this discussion, it is a different driving experience. The road car comes with satnav and bluetooth, electric windows, sound proofing and 245kgs more weight. Back with the aircooled RS's, if you removed the carpet, you basically had a Cup car. Sure, they fitted some different parts, but that was to ensure they didn't fall apart when racing, but on a one lap basis, the standard car was as quick as the race car.

I understand that times have changed and maybe the differences between top race cars and road cars is now bigger. Things like weight are hard to achieve when you need to fit airbags and other such things. And i know that I am biased towards the air cooled cars. But what strikes me is this. The older cars that are now becoming worth the big money were shunned because they were too raw and radical for their day. It took people a long time to realise why these cars were special. They were built with no other intention than to race. When Porsche builds a GT3 Cup that simply adds the bare minimum to make it road legal, then we would be in the same ball park, but i would bet a lot of money that if they did, the car would be panned for being too raw and unsuitable for a road car, just like their predecessors. 

The world would be a strange place of we all thought the same way and wanted the same things. Clearly I don't understand what drives people to pay so much for these cars because, while they are great cars, I do not get what makes them so desirable a collectors car so soon in their lifecycle. It feels like a bandwagon or bubble to me, because certain elements are missing from these cars. Low production numbers alone aren't, IMO, a good enough reason. Time will tell, and I might be very wrong, but I will be happy sticking with the type of cars I love.

[kaitan]

but you can't import one. AUSTRALIAN protectionism wins every time...

I believe you can once you've owned the car for 1 year. Import unders personal import. 

[turboT]

I believe you can once you've owned the car for 1 year. Import unders personal import. 

but you need to also reside in the country for that year

[SimonN]

I believe you can once you've owned the car for 1 year. Import unders personal import. 

You have to have owned it and used it for a year. Buying it and leaving it in a garage doesn't count. I am currently trying to get a proper definition of what would be needed. I live in Oz and have dual citizenship. How many visits do I need to make to the UK in that year and for how long? My fear is that you need to be the equivalent of non resident in Oz for tax purposes.

[hugh]

James

Wasn't the nations cup basically a production car class?The reason why yo didn't do more mods was because you weren't allowed. How well would a Nations Cup car have gone against a SuperCup car?

The point is that at the time when the GT3 was homologated, supercup, RSR etc. cars didn't exist - there was only 1 GT3 car produced (available in either touring or CS). Even now, Cup cars are a standard control issue car but the point of the discussion is that they differ extensively from a standard GT3 (including the RS) - but they initially didn't.

[SimonN]

The point is that at the time when the GT3 was homologated, supercup, RSR etc. cars didn't exist - there was only 1 GT3 car produced (available in either touring or CS). Even now, Cup cars are a standard control issue car but the point of the discussion is that they differ extensively from a standard GT3 (including the RS) - but they initially didn't.

Hugh

You might be right, but I seem to remember that the GT3's used in the SuperCup were actually very different from the road cars. Homologation is always a red herring, because it doesn't often equal race car. Homolgation has such a wide range of purposes which depend on the rules of the particular class. It can be used for whole cars or just small components (such as bringing out a model with 4 pots calipers rather than 2). The point is whether you could simply remove the carpet, fit a full roll cage and harnesses and race or how much extra work you needed to do. At my age, I am always pleased when my memory doesn't let me down , but I thing that to take an original GT3 and make it a Cup car needed a full strip down and rebuild with a lot of different components.

Is all this important? Not sure, but these minutia always fascinate me. Somebody once said that the devil is in the detail, which reminds me, i have some work to do!

[edgy]

You only have to look at the 991 GT Cup car and compare it with the road going car to see what i am talking about. The differences are significant including a different gearbox with a clutch, different brakes, different and light weight panels. More importantly for this discussion, it is a different driving experience. The road car comes with satnav and bluetooth, electric windows, sound proofing and 245kgs more weight. Back with the aircooled RS's, if you removed the carpet, you basically had a Cup car. Sure, they fitted some different parts, but that was to ensure they didn't fall apart when racing, but on a one lap basis, the standard car was as quick as the race car.

Simon, as Spiller earlier posted, 996 & 997 road car is practically the same at core with the Cup. GT3 doesn't have any sound deadening, nor does it come with radio, air con or sat nav in its base spec like you suggest, those are options (usually no cost, how generous).. and they are more or less at the bare minimum to meet road regs! This even changes on 996 in generations (safety standards increasing with time I guess) because the 6.1 Clubsport didn't even have airbags in the doors, where as it was 6.2 that got them regardless or CS or Komfort... for some reason I think carbon doors with virtually no structure & fixed plexi glass added to gymnasium set and suspension so low it'll grid more rail than Tony Hawk, is not anyones idea of a good road car!

But you are right in that the 991 Cup and 991 GT3 Road car are completely different, even the engine block is different from road car to Cup, I do believe the GT3-R now comes with the 9A1 based motor mind you. 

How much time have you spend in a GT3 Simon? I have to ask you because you imply that its not raw or engaging like an air-cooled 911, I don't agree.. and as you know I've lived with 2 generations of GT3 and spent enough time in a well set up Air-cooled car to know this is a fallacy. 

Tell you what, I'll give you my 997 for a day and you will be begging for a Toyota Camry by the end of the day.  

 

 

[SimonN]

How much time have you spend in a GT3 Simon? I have to ask you because you imply that its not raw or engaging like an air-cooled 911, I don't agree.. and as you know I've lived with 2 generations of GT3 and spent enough time in a well set up Air-cooled car to know this is a fallacy. 

Tell you what, I'll give you my 997 for a day and you will be begging for a Toyota Camry by the end of the day.  

I haven't driven the GT3's much. I had a 996 GT3 RS for a day and a single track test of 10 laps in an ex 997 Super Cup in the UK.  (I was going to race in 2007 but moved here instead!). That car had a sequential gearbox, which i don't think the road cars had. I have been in a number of GT3's as a passenger.

One thing I can tell you for absolute certain. Compared with my old car, the road going GT3's (even the RS's) are very civilised. That isn't just my view and I think that is supported by test reports even today. But then again, I am mad as I used the car as primary transport, doing 10,000 miles a year all over the UK, including London traffic. Most other RS owners thought I was crazy and that I must have had most of my senses disconnected. As one recent article said when comparing it to the GT3 RS 

" (it's) a complete pig, or at least three quarters of one: noisy, uncouth, hard-riding, uncomfortable, hot, hard work and generally something of a masochist’s car."

while another said

On track, around Croft the GT3 RS is in its element, a joy to behold and one helluva toy to have at your disposal. The 964 RS is another step up again though. Put it down to its age and the trailing arm rear suspension design if you will, but the 964 RS feels more of the edgy racer than the GT3 RS. The payback for a shattered spine on the journey here is rewarded with a race car-stiff setup that generates so much control and composure on track that the younger, fresher 996 feels almost like a standard 911 in its company."

I never felt it was the "shattered spine" that was the challenge (although maybe that's why my back is so bad!), more like the noise and concentration needed even on gentle drives. So, I can assure you that after a day in your GT3, I will be looking for a way to make it more raw and not wanting a softer car

But I need to be careful because people might think that I don't respect the GT3's and that is wrong. There is no doubt in my mind that they are the best Porsches of recent years. I think they are probably do the best cross over between daily drive and track car that Porsche has done. I am really discussing valuations and reasons for why I personally think they are over cooked, rather than saying they aren't great cars.

[edgy]

I think this can be easily summed up by the "Classic Car Factor" 

Your 964 is a classic car, the GT3 is not, never will be in the same league.

Its true that the GT3 gets more civilised with each iteration, 997 is easier to live with than the 996 and so on... 

[hugh]

Hugh

You might be right, but I seem to remember that the GT3's used in the SuperCup were actually very different from the road cars. Homologation is always a red herring, because it doesn't often equal race car. Homolgation has such a wide range of purposes which depend on the rules of the particular class. It can be used for whole cars or just small components (such as bringing out a model with 4 pots calipers rather than 2). The point is whether you could simply remove the carpet, fit a full roll cage and harnesses and race or how much extra work you needed to do. At my age, I am always pleased when my memory doesn't let me down , but I thing that to take an original GT3 and make it a Cup car needed a full strip down and rebuild with a lot of different components.

Is all this important? Not sure, but these minutia always fascinate me. Somebody once said that the devil is in the detail, which reminds me, i have some work to do!

Simon, please enlighten me with how the first gen 996 MK1 GT3 was different to the 'cup cars' and/or 'super cup' cars as I would really like to know for my own benefit. Aside from some bolt on modifications (as James had outlined previously in this thread), I fail to find any information (or reason) for them to be any different - especially the need for a full strip down and rebuild as you have stated? 

[spiller]

For interests sake...

996 Cup vs Road car (mk2)

Engine: Cup has different cams and air intake, engine is solid mounted in the cup, otherwise more or less the same internal components between the two cars.

Gearbox: Same 6 speed non sequential H-pattern for both cars but shorter gear ratios and final drive in the cup. Cup also has different internal components in the LSD for better adjustment and longevity. Uprated shift cables and shifter mechanism. Gearbox is solid mounted to the chassis. Cup car also has a triple plate clutch and single mass flywheel.

Exhaust: Centre exit single muffler on the cup, side exit on the street car with two large mufflers on either side and two cat converters in the center.

Brakes: Same rotor and caliper size on both cars, cup has lighter rotors and race pads. Bigger brake ducts on the cup. Cup also has a Bosch Motorsport ABS system which is better calibrated for race use and slick tyres.

Body: Cup has carbon doors, front bumper, rear bumper, engine lid, lexan side windows and rear window. Single wiper arm. Larger front splitter, larger rear wing

Suspension: Cup has adjustable rear toe links, front and rear control arms, double adjustable dampers with higher spring rates. Street car only has adjustable front control arms and sway bars front/rear. Street car coilovers are height adjustable but not damper adjustable. Cup also has centre lock hubs with stronger uprights.

Interior: cup is gutted with comprehensive weld in roll cage, only interior trim is dash board. Single recaro halo seat for the driver. Cups also have a plumbed fire extinguishing system. Both cars have the same gauge cluster. Cup has a motec ECU

Wheels/Tyres: Centre lock 3 piece BBS 18 inch wheels and slicks on the cup. Street car 18 inch cast alloy.

Fuel System: Cup has a fuel cell mounted in the frunk.

Cup also has an air jack system.

They're the main differences, there are likely multiple other small pieces which I haven't listed, but the important thing is a lot of this is plug and play between the two cars. There is a guy who races here in SA with a right hand drive 996 cup. The car came about because someone with a lot of money didn't like left hand drive so he turned a street GT3 into a cup car, right down to the fuel cell and air jacks. Could not tell the difference other than the steering wheel being on the other side.

[SimonN]

Thank you, Spiller. I was about 20% through typing, had to stop to speak to a client and came back to find your list. I would add that the engines or the SuperCup (or carrera Cup or whatever the GP support series was called)  were blue printed in the factory. The only thing I am not sure about is the exhaust. I have a photo of a fully restored, back to original Cup car that shows 2 exhaust tips.

To me, it doesn't matter that you can bolt all of those things onto a GT3 road car. The fact is, the cars are pretty different. It doesn't matter that the engines have the same internals if the cams, intake and mapping are different. If a gearbox has different ratios and the LSD is different, the car will feel very different. And that is my point. The difference between the car you drive out of the show room and the car you see racing in support of the GP is significant. Now I would love to have a road legal Cup car. It would be super knarly and most would think I was mad, but if i want the "comforts", I can drive my regular cars. When I take my Porsche out for a drive, it is for the pure fun of it, so having a totally impractical, loud, hard riding etc. etc would be brilliant, although i do wonder whether with the state of roads here, a full blown rally car might not be a better bet.  I don't think it could happen here (well, the rally car maybe), but I know of one in the UK.

[spiller]

^^^ the pic you are referring to might be one of the early cups. 2000-2002 had the 996.1 styling with side exit exhausts. Those ones were never raced here in Aus (as far as I know). There is also the GT3RS race car which again has the Mk1 styling, H pattern and a more extreme engine, then there is the RSR which has the MK2 styling with wide body, more aero, crazier engine again and a sequential gearbox.  GT3RS and GT3RSRs are very rare race cars and demand half a million or so!

My GT3 is sort of what you described in your post above Simon - very stiffly sprung, solid suspension bushes, cup arms, diff, centre exhaust and cup shifter/cables, a/c delete etc. Very sketchy on the road and it's a real event to drive but god I'd hate to drive it every day. When I do drive it though I love what it brings and wouldn't want it any other way.

[James P]

Guys on paper you can interchange anything between 996 gt3 road & the 996 gt3 cup BUT you will never turn a road going gt3 into a 100% cup car at any reasonable cost & it won't do the same lap times as the cup, there are just to many small & large differences. My 04 OZ delivered cup car would have to be the most original cup car going around it has never turned a wheel in anger or been played with since it finished its last race of the Carrera cup season in 2005, it still has the original tyres on it. i can give you all the answers on late 996 cup cars... Anyway way off topic now...

[SimonN]

James

I don't know if you can confirm this, but I believe the body for the Cup cars had some extra seam welding, particularly around where the cage connects and the cage itself was different.

There was an early Cup car for sale in the UK earlier this year that was claimed to be refreshed to factory original spec. It was advertised at GBP70k and looked stunning. Look here as it also gives an idea of some of the differences

996 GT3 Cup Car for Sale

[symsy]

You have to have owned it and used it for a year. Buying it and leaving it in a garage doesn't count. I am currently trying to get a proper definition of what would be needed. I live in Oz and have dual citizenship. How many visits do I need to make to the UK in that year and for how long? My fear is that you need to be the equivalent of non resident in Oz for tax purposes.

You can import via a service man returning home.. no tax .. you can import afer use .. genuine.. like i have done 6 trips in 20 months visiting family - sick mum …  there are ways and as I said with a 200K spread on a 997.1 RS .. who wouldnt try … Im sure there are ways ...

You can of course also pay a retrun home citizen just to do it , ownership and registration very very different things ..just keep the keys in your hands !!

Creativity 

You could also buy it via a Museum  

 

[smit2100]

You have to have owned it and used it for a year. Buying it and leaving it in a garage doesn't count. I am currently trying to get a proper definition of what would be needed. I live in Oz and have dual citizenship. How many visits do I need to make to the UK in that year and for how long? My fear is that you need to be the equivalent of non resident in Oz for tax purposes.

When I looked at that on an impending expat assignment from Aus to Uk for more than 12months, personally importing a 360 Ferrari (yes moment of weakness)  as a nice bonus to taking the assignment was seriously considered in equation to signup.  To be able to make that happen,  I understood I  needed  to have owned the car and used it (registration of the car in the UK would appear to satisfy that requirement along with a sales agreement , - eg need to document everything along with the kilometers when purchased (dated photograph).  I understood that  your weekly run round town to show the odometer moved from the time you owned the car until you needed to get the approvals for importing it back into Australia was suffice toprove usage.  Then you need to be able to prove that during that ownership duration (min twelve months)  you were actually in the UK for at least twelve months and you owned and used it  So matching passport stamps. at the time was what I understood would be used to satisfy that along with my assignment letter and payslips from the UK entity that employed me.     So if you brought the car, registered it for exactly one year, you would need to show that you were in the UK for exactly the same period before  applying  for importing the car back to Australia.  That said, if you had a business trip to the US within that twelve months for two weeks, you fail to meet the criteria.   eg would need to rollover the registration (way to prove ownership in your name and being used ) and you would need your passport stamps to show you were in the UK for 365 days plus an additional two weeks to cover the business trip.

To me, your dual citizenship in no way helps, unless you have a job / business with a one week one, one week of fly in fly out roster, that's going to take you 2.1 years to satisfy that requirement.  If you have that arrangement or in that position, I would expect you are not short of a quid and you wouldn't be dicking around with importing something unless it was a collectors piece.  Hopefully for you what I outlined above based on your advise  is a lot of crap

[spiller]

Guys on paper you can interchange anything between 996 gt3 road & the 996 gt3 cup BUT you will never turn a road going gt3 into a 100% cup car at any reasonable cost & it won't do the same lap times as the cup, there are just to many small & large differences. My 04 OZ delivered cup car would have to be the most original cup car going around it has never turned a wheel in anger or been played with since it finished its last race of the Carrera cup season in 2005, it still has the original tyres on it. i can give you all the answers on late 996 cup cars... Anyway way off topic now...

Agree, the guy who did the RHD one would have spent hundreds of thousands getting it there, makes absolutely no sense. That's interesting about your cup, are you keeping it as an investment or just don't have the time to use it?

[SimonN]

When I looked at that on an impending expat assignment from Aus to Uk for more than 12months, personally importing a 360 Ferrari (yes moment of weakness)  as a nice bonus to taking the assignment was seriously considered in equation to signup.  To be able to make that happen,  I understood I  needed  to have owned the car and used it (registration of the car in the UK would appear to satisfy that requirement along with a sales agreement , - eg need to document everything along with the kilometers when purchased (dated photograph).  I understood that  your weekly run round town to show the odometer moved from the time you owned the car until you needed to get the approvals for importing it back into Australia was suffice toprove usage.  Then you need to be able to prove that during that ownership duration (min twelve months)  you were actually in the UK for at least twelve months and you owned and used it  So matching passport stamps. at the time was what I understood would be used to satisfy that along with my assignment letter and payslips from the UK entity that employed me.     So if you brought the car, registered it for exactly one year, you would need to show that you were in the UK for exactly the same period before  applying  for importing the car back to Australia.  That said, if you had a business trip to the US within that twelve months for two weeks, you fail to meet the criteria.   eg would need to rollover the registration (way to prove ownership in your name and being used ) and you would need your passport stamps to show you were in the UK for 365 days plus an additional two weeks to cover the business trip.

To me, your dual citizenship in no way helps, unless you have a job / business with a one week one, one week of fly in fly out roster, that's going to take you 2.1 years to satisfy that requirement.  If you have that arrangement or in that position, I would expect you are not short of a quid and you wouldn't be dicking around with importing something unless it was a collectors piece.  Hopefully for you what I outlined above based on your advise  is a lot of crap

I think you are close, but not spot on and this is why I am looking at it more closely. I have brought over 2 cars under the 12 month rule (mine and the wife's) and all we needed to do was show a bill of sale that was more than a year before. Yes, we were living there, myself forever and my wife for 20 years, but I don't remember being asked for passport proof and I know that our overseas trips weren't even considered. i do remember being asked about mileage on purchase and on application, but I saw no guidance on minimums. I think the lowest usage car came out at about 4500 miles per year.

One thing I am sure about is that it is not easy, but like symsy, I feel there has to be a way around it. If there is, it has to be a pretty limited thing otherwise everybody would be doing it.

[James P]

Agree, the guy who did the RHD one would have spent hundreds of thousands getting it there, makes absolutely no sense. That's interesting about your cup, are you keeping it as an investment or just don't have the time to use it?

Im currently recommissioning it & will be on the track soon... 

[SimonN]

Im currently recommissioning it & will be on the track soon... 

Good luck with the project James. Great way to go. If I could get it past "The Boss" , I would love to do the same thing.

[356993???]

997.1 GT3 CS currently on the market in Melbourne has an immediate 10 k downwards price adjustment over a phone call. While still above 200k asking, shows there is some fat in asking $ vs what it may actually change hands for....

[sandy468]

997.1 GT3 CS currently on the market in Melbourne has an immediate 10 k downwards price adjustment over a phone call. While still above 200k asking, shows there is some fat in asking $ vs what it may actually change hands for....

There's very nearly always fat on most cars, often obesity ....don't ask don't get!

[symsy]

There's very nearly always fat on most cars, often obesity ....don't ask don't get!

What the yellow one at HFactory?

[symsy]

Did this just drop 50k??  It been around for a while yes and  PFAers ?

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Porsche-911-2010/SSE-AD-4225640/?Cr=9