RE-STAMPING OF A PORSCHE ENGINE

[Coastr]

The main reason we should care about original matching numbers is because those cars set the ceiling on what people will pay.

[Skidmarks]

If you do (or even if you actually can) buy a case from Porsche that doesn't have an engine number, what other use for it could there be, but to put the original number back on it. It is not like you can just make something up if you want to be honest about a replacement.

I agree. It's about disclosure. 

[StevepGT3]

I restamped new factory Ducati 851 cases with the old number,for a bike that threw a chain and cracked the cases at Philip island back in the day. I didn't even think twice about any implications of non matching no's or reduced value etc, just simply replacing something that was broken with a new  factory component.

[JLD]

I agree. It's about disclosure. 

The thing with a blank case stamped with the matching number is that you know it's been done. You tell the next owner it's been one, he trades it in at a dealership and doesn't tell them (or does and they ignore), and before you know it everyone is none the wiser. It becomes a matching numbers car as far as anyone knows

[Skidmarks]

The thing with a blank case stamped with the matching number is that you know it's been done. You tell the next owner it's been one, he trades it in at a dealership and doesn't tell them (or does and they ignore), and before you know it everyone is none the wiser. It becomes a matching numbers car as far as anyone knows

That could happen. I traded my 74 Carrera recently and was very up front about the restamped case. It was also really obvious if you know what you're looking for. 

[SimonN]

The "matching numbers" logic is anything but logical, but I do understand it. I hope we can all understand it when it comes to collectible cars. The issue comes about with the rest and I believe it is pretty simple. Engines need totally replacing for many reasons, and among those many reasons, there are a fair number that relate to abuse of the car, which is where the concern is. How does a buyer know if the reason why the engine was replaced was because of, say, a manufacturing defect or because of continual track and burn out abuse. If the car has been abused, how is the rest of the car. Did the engine detonate because of a single, extreme over rev due to a missed gear, or was it because the owner habitually bounced off the rev limit? And the big problem is, how do you provide  buyer with enough comfort that  At very least, the buyer of a non matching numbers car needs to do (even) more due diligence and that, regrettably, comes at a price. 

I think it is completely different when you have a hot rod type car which i  mix and match to suit a particular build requirement/desire.

As said above, it is all about disclosure. The risk, as pointed out above, is hat happens when the history, and therefore, disclosure, gets lost or forgotten. 

And as for the comment about simply replacing "something that was broken with a new  factory component", I think this is way off the mark. On that basis, I can smash a car and replace the damaged parts with new factory components and all is sweet? Surely a buyer has the right to know the history of a vehicle so they can make a judgement call as to whether they want to buy said vehicle. It's the disclosure issue and if you are going to disclose you have replaced an engine case, why stamp it with the original number? 

[StevepGT3]

The "matching numbers" logic is anything but logical, but I do understand it. I hope we can all understand it when it comes to collectible cars. The issue comes about with the rest and I believe it is pretty simple. Engines need totally replacing for many reasons, and among those many reasons, there are a fair number that relate to abuse of the car, which is where the concern is. How does a buyer know if the reason why the engine was replaced was because of, say, a manufacturing defect or because of continual track and burn out abuse. If the car has been abused, how is the rest of the car. Did the engine detonate because of a single, extreme over rev due to a missed gear, or was it because the owner habitually bounced off the rev limit? And the big problem is, how do you provide  buyer with enough comfort that  At very least, the buyer of a non matching numbers car needs to do (even) more due diligence and that, regrettably, comes at a price. 

I think it is completely different when you have a hot rod type car which i  mix and match to suit a particular build requirement/desire.

As said above, it is all about disclosure. The risk, as pointed out above, is hat happens when the history, and therefore, disclosure, gets lost or forgotten. 

And as for the comment about simply replacing "something that was broken with a new  factory component", I think this is way off the mark. On that basis, I can smash a car and replace the damaged parts with new factory components and all is sweet? Surely a buyer has the right to know the history of a vehicle so they can make a judgement call as to whether they want to buy said vehicle. It's the disclosure issue and if you are going to disclose you have replaced an engine case, why stamp it with the original number? 

what number would you suggest, 666? The reasoning behind the original number was simply that no other number would make sense considering that the cases were blank 

[DJM]

How does a buyer know if the reason why the engine was replaced was because of, say, a manufacturing defect or because of continual track and burn out abuse. If the car has been abused, how is the rest of the car. Did the engine detonate because of a single, extreme over rev due to a missed gear, or was it because the owner habitually bounced off the rev limit? And the big problem is, how do you provide  buyer with enough comfort that  At very least, the buyer of a non matching numbers car needs to do (even) more due diligence and that, regrettably, comes at a price. 

 

in my experience, potential buyers have no interest in what happened or why an engine was replaced. It's simply "non matching" and therefore tarnished because that's what they've been brainwashed to believe is an issue.  Non matching numbers doesn't mean abused just as matching numbers doesnt mean pampered.  You need to investigate and assess and buy on condition no matter what.  

[SimonN]

 Non matching numbers doesn't mean abused just as matching numbers doesnt mean pampered.  

Where did I say that non matching numbers means abused? I offered that up as one of the reasons why a car might have a non original engine, and the one that worries people. After all, there is never a good story about why a car needed a new engine. I doubt I am that unusual in that when I hear about a car with a non matching numbers engine, my first thought is Why, followed by a healthy degree of skepticism about what else is going on with the car. So if I had the choice between a non matching number car and a matching number one, I need a good reason why I would go for the non matching one and that good reason is usually financial. Sorry, but it isn't brainwashing. It is common sense.

[firstone]

?

[9r]

in my experience, potential buyers have no interest in what happened or why an engine was replaced. It's simply "non matching" and therefore tarnished because that's what they've been brainwashed to believe is an issue.  Non matching numbers doesn't mean abused just as matching numbers doesnt mean pampered.  

I agree with DJM's observations and would like to add my 20-30% (or even more price impact that seems to involved)

I find this match numbers quite perplexing especially when we are talking about cars that are built to be driven and for air cooled cars the youngest are coming up to 20 yrs old, G series over 40 yrs old especially when you take into account that that metallurgy and lubricarion technology has come a long way in that time. It's interesting that people want matching numbers for originality but I put it to everyone that engines and gearboxes were not designed or made to last that long no matter what use (or lack of use as which I also bad for an engine) they have had.  

So looking at matching numbers as being how it was originally came out of the factory then are we saying that NO work has ever been done to that driveline... In which case I would think for cars the age we are talking about that would (to me) mean a car that would need an awful lot of work before they could be reliably driven either through not being used and all that means, or if it has been used some significant refresh work.  And here is where the discussion gets interesting... So, how much work is acceptable?

From what I can see it seems that matching numbers cars that have new pistons and even barrels and related bits and bobs seem to be fine from an originality point of view (price wise) though they definitely didn't leave the factory with those bits, but someone who was unlucky and scored a magnesium alloy case that became porous can't replace the case of their engine through no fault of there own (or how they drove or maintained the vehicle) 

[SimonN]

The more interesting and relevant debate is what constitutes the identity of a car. Forget what Australian law says because law differs in other countries. I am going to use a 73 RS as an example, so we can discuss a hypothetical car with real value, but the same could apply to any car.

If I build a car from all new parts, is it a 73RS? I think all would agree that it was not. If I took a small bit of metal from a genuine 73RS, would it be a genuine car? What if that small bit had the chassis number on it? Or what happens if I use a genuine factory 73RS engine that has never been modified? What happens if i take every bit of running gear, engine, gearbox, interior etc from a 73RS and put it in a newly built shell? How is that different from using an engine from another car in a 73RS chassis? Can we separate the chassis number and engine number to create 2 genuine 73RS's?

Although the above is maybe extreme, I personally believe that a car is more than a single number, be it chassis or engine. It is a collection of components (and numbers). It is why I believe that the whole issue of restoration is so fraught and why we see big differences in values between some restored cars. i believe that if you are doing a proper restoration, you need to do all you can to keep as many components as possible. It is often more expensive and takes longer, because cleaning and reconditioning parts can take longer and cost more than replacing them. Replacing "consumables" is fine, but every time you replace a more significant component, the car becomes something different.

Values reflect originality - the closer a car is to how it came out of the factory, the more it is worth. It may not be the most perfect pricing mechanism, but it is logical and reasonable. Otherwise, the logical conclusion is that if we took a car built with new parts to exactly the 73RS spec, it should be worth the same amount as a concourse, perfect original 73RS, which we all know would be crazy to suggest, even though they would both look the same and drive the same.

[ByronBayChris]

This sounds like the Shelby Cobra CSX4000 series.   "Authorised" but the factory.   65 Cobras are $1mil+ USD.    CSX4000 series (being the "same" car) are $150k USD.

[StevepGT3]

I wonder if series 1 991 GT3`s were re stamped with original numbers, or documentation changed to suit after that little fiasco. Also there was a lot of talk about lots of  M96 engines being swapped out when the cars were still under warranty,however I have never heard of this one , or that one doesn`t have matching numbers.

 

[ByronBayChris]

What about a car with matching numbers engine, BUT, that case is in a box and the car is running an identical case but with no number.   Should the original number be stamped on the new blank case and the old case kept for "proof" ?

[WOKA]

I wonder if series 1 991 GT3`s were re stamped with original numbers, or documentation changed to suit after that little fiasco. Also there was a lot of talk about lots of  M96 engines being swapped out when the cars were still under warranty,however I have never heard of this one , or that one doesn`t have matching numbers.

 

My 996 had an engine swap under warranty in 2004 at about 35000km..  So my car isn't a matching numbers car - still drives the same though.

In this case they gave the car a 'special engine number' that identifies it as a PCA engine swap out.      

[StevepGT3]

My 996 had an engine swap under warranty in 2004 at about 35000km..  So my car isn't a matching numbers car - still drives the same though.

In this case they gave the car a 'special engine number' that identifies it as a PCA engine swap out.      

thanks for that, wasn't sure how they went about it.

[DJM]

What about a car with matching numbers engine, BUT, that case is in a box and the car is running an identical case but with no number.   Should the original number be stamped on the new blank case and the old case kept for "proof" ?

fascinating how many tyre kickers asked if I still had the original crankcase because they'd rather toss the brand new engine and build up a new engine off the old wrecked crank case.  Umm, do you think it is was reusable I wouldn't have done so?

Scary thing is with the premium paid for matching number cars, these idiots are motivated to cut corners.  Caveat emptor.