RE-STAMPING OF A PORSCHE ENGINE

[marco]

Wonder if someone could help me on this. 

Recently i was in discussions to buy a Porsche in Australia, supposedly a matching numbers car. When i saw the engine numbers it had definitely been re-stamped and poorly at that. Reading up about it apparently if Porsche re-stamps an engine casing they usually add "KD" in front of the numbers.

When i asked the dealer on this their response was that Porsche Australia re-called a number of the Aluminum cases as you couldn't order the magnesium case at the time of order and because of that they cracked. Only later could you purchase from Porsche dealers the magnesium cases and then Porsche Australia dealers would re stamp the engine number. 

Asking some Porsche experts in Australia and abroad they had never heard of this, but i am hoping the dealer is legit and telling me the truth.

Wondering if anyone had heard of this in Australia Porsche history?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Robert930]

Hi Marco, I've never heard of it, it does not sound plausible, especially for a company so strong in engineering / record keeping.

All manufacturers have spare blocks / cases that would be sold as service units / warranty replacements, but they would have their own numbers at the time of build, before they even know where the engine will end up.

I'm not going to say too much more, but I would tread carefully around this one, do as much research as you have time for, or just find another car, there are plenty more about

Unless the whole car has been re-birthed and somehow connected to a famous Racing driver, then it's somehow not rebirthing and actually adds value.....LOL

[LeeM]

 

Any idea @jnr356 ?

[Skidmarks]

Porsche regularly sold replacement cases without numbers. I recently sold a car with one. A 74 2.7 Carrera. The replacement case was a 7R mag case. It was for a locally delivered car and Porsche here did not restamp the case, the person who rebuilt the engine did.

In my view, it took around 10% off the "market" (whatever that is) price.  That's fine as price and value are also perception based.

Also, Porsche's record keeping is very good but not fantastic. 

In Europe when they re cased, Porsche sometimes stamped the letters AT in front of the restamped case which was an abbreviation for the German word for "replacement".

But I agree, do your research carefully.  And talk to real experts. 

And im not one of them!!!

[SimonN]

Besides the need to do the research to get the story straight, if it does stack up, where does that leave this car. In the truest sense, while it might have the right numbers, we now know it isn't the original engine, or at least, engine case. Most consider "matching numbers" to mean that the car has the same chassis, engine and gearbox as it left the factory. Does it matter? If the story can be verified without any doubt, does it simply add to an interesting history or should the car be treated as any other non matching numbers car. I personally like cars with interesting, unusual and verified histories, but tend to think the market isn't quite as keen as I am.

[Skidmarks]

Besides the need to do the research to get the story straight, if it does stack up, where does that leave this car. In the truest sense, while it might have the right numbers, we now know it isn't the original engine, or at least, engine case. Most consider "matching numbers" to mean that the car has the same chassis, engine and gearbox as it left the factory. Does it matter? If the story can be verified without any doubt, does it simply add to an interesting history or should the car be treated as any other non matching numbers car. I personally like cars with interesting, unusual and verified histories, but tend to think the market isn't quite as keen as I am.

I take the view that matching numbers is nice but only critical in the high end Carcoon market where the owner savours the car over the 5th glass of Hill of Grace after the family has gone to bed. 

It does knock the edge off the price which is OK but the semi hysterical hand wringing that permeates the topic does my head in sometimes.

Same chassis is a must.

Engine? If the only thing that's different is the number is no big deal. Engines go bang and need replacing. If the engine was made by Porsche then it doesn't dilute the gene pool.  Its not like someone dropped a 202 red motor in is it?  Gearbox matching?  For sure but numbers?  Again,if it came with a 915 and because it went bang another 915 went in, its still OK by me.  I'd take issue if you managed to get a Top Loader in there - but maybe not if it was a bullnose ....

These things are made to be used.  When they're used, things break and have to be replaced.  

Take this example.  My 75 2.7 Carrera.  Its matching numbers.  It also has 2.8 pistons and barrels and an insane amount of exotic but period correct internals and pumps 315 hp.  Still has the original mag case.  The gearbox is the mag case it came with also but the gear set is different and has many strengthening upgrades.  The diff is all but a spool.

So, the numbers match but no way is it as it left the factory.  And its still worth what they're worth on the market.  Its not as "original" as my Jap 74 Carrera but - to me - is a great drive,  its still a 2.7 MFI like the 74 and was born in Stuttgart.  

Think if it as being like the knee or hip replacement that grandpa had. Its still grandpa ...

[edgy]

Hill of Grace

202 red motors

top loaders 

grandpa..  

 

i love your way ? Hehe

[SimonN]

Skidmarks

I personally agree with your sentiments, but I am not sure the market does. This is a good thing, because it means we can pay less for cars that we are happy with. I love driving a car that has cost me 30% less than somebody else has paid, knowing the driving experience is exactly the same!

[MFX]

Porsche regularly sold replacement cases without numbers. I recently sold a car with one. A 74 2.7 Carrera. The replacement case was a 7R mag case. It was for a locally delivered car and Porsche here did not restamp the case, the person who rebuilt the engine did.

In my view, it took around 10% off the "market" (whatever that is) price.  That's fine as price and value are also perception based.

Also, Porsche's record keeping is very good but not fantastic. 

In Europe when they re cased, Porsche sometimes stamped the letters AT in front of the restamped case which was an abbreviation for the German word for "replacement".

But I agree, do your research carefully.  And talk to real experts. 

And im not one of them!!!

I have the same sort of opinion as @SimonN where I am happier getting cars I can drive and not stress about, but I still think the purists would have more than a 10% issue with it. Look at DJM recently selling his GT2 with a Porsche repalcement engine in it, and I think it was a lot more than a 10% difference in price. 

With original 2.7 MFI engines asking around $100k, I very much doubt anyone would pay even close to that for a recased engine.

[tazzieman]

Think if it as being like the knee or hip replacement that grandpa had. Its still grandpa ...

But not a "matching numbers" grandpa. Like botox , Pete Evans teeth and a wife 1/2 your age , some people insist on perfection, however flawed their reasoning.
They have a personality flaw that can be traced back to the factory. Grandpa?

[jnr356]

 

Any idea @jnr356 ?

not true

replacing cases was very ,very rare

the few that were replaced,were stamped with the original number and the original case destroyed

never heard of or seen a "kd" stamped case

[JLD]

Skidmarks

I personally agree with your sentiments, but I am not sure the market does. This is a good thing, because it means we can pay less for cars that we are happy with. I love driving a car that has cost me 30% less than somebody else has paid, knowing the driving experience is exactly the same!

so really you have to define the perspective. Is it from the buyer's or the seller's! As a buyer, I'm happy with the above statement as I want to use mine when I finally buy one

[Skidmarks]

Hill of Grace

202 red motors

top loaders 

grandpa..  

 

i love your way ? Hehe

sort of date stamps me doesn't it?

so really you have to define the perspective. Is it from the buyer's or the seller's! As a buyer, I'm happy with the above statement as I want to use mine when I finally buy one

Thats true. He who has the cash rules until the heart takes over ...

And in that, I have some experience!

[DJM]

Look at DJM recently selling his GT2 with a Porsche repalcement engine in it, and I think it was a lot more than a 10% difference in price.

yeah well above 10% discount for my non matching number GT2 relative to the other GT2s currently on market.  Having said that, the other cars have all been sitting around for a long while with prices tumbling from mid 4s to high 2s in the last year and they remain unsold.  Until a matching numbers car sells, it's all speculation.  But I'm pretty sure the delta is still 20%.  The other factor in my case is I was a very motivated seller and was keen on a quick sale.  If circumstances were different I'd have kept it so that impacted price as well.

so be it, happy that the buyer will use it - these cars are for driving not ogling.

[MFX]

I almost pulled the trigger on buying a genuine 3.0 Carrera engine from NZ for my car. I did my homework on the engine case, etc, and it was in fact a genuine C3 engine, but upon further investigation it had a standard 76 2.7 engine number. After some head scratching, I had a closer look at the photo's of the engine number, I could see that it had been ground off and re-stamped. The current owner had apparently owned the engine for around 15 years, and said he recalled something strange about the engine number when he bought it. Either way, even though it was a great price (I was going to pick it up for just $8500AU late last year), it was too dodgy to touch.

[DJM]

When my engine let go, some people advised to buy a blank case from Porsche and have it stamped with the original engine number.  My view was it's either the original engine or it's a replacement.  A new engine with the same number does not really satisfy the intent of matching numbers.  If it's a replacement, by definition it will have a different number otherwise it's a pretend original engine.  My decision no doubt impacted resale value but honesty and integrity is of more value to me than money.  Even if I had recreated a new engine with old number, I would have been upfront about it and presumably the value would be the same?  I can only see it being more valuable if you hide the true story.

[Peter M]

Guys,

Is there any legislation that covers engine case replacement and numbering?

If there isn't I can't see what's wrong with what jnr advised above about what Porsche has done in the past in these situations.  ie transfer the numbers onto a new case and destroy the old. 

It's not as though the engine case has anymore significance than any other major part of the engine that I can see.  (However I agree if the case, the crank and a few more major items were damaged maintaining the existing engine number would be hard to justify.)

Happy to be convinced otherwise by some sound logic but I'm not hearing any yet. 

I think the whole matching numbers thing is just another marketing exercise to differentiate product and hopefully command higher prices for those vehicles that fit this segment. 

[DJM]

I don't see any logic for the whole matching numbers thing.  I get that an original car is preferred over a non original car but the disdain for non matching cars seems pretty extreme to me.  Maybe I'm just bitter.....

The point I was making is that if matching numbers is really what a buyer wants then serving up a new case with the old number probably doesn't pass the "originality" test that the Porsche market in particular is fixated on.  If you're not trying to pass it off as "original" then who cares what the new engine number is.

[Blue964]

Hill of Grace

202 red motors

top loaders 

grandpa..  

 

i love your way ? Hehe

202 and hill of grace...finally the old red motor is getting some respect.

[tazzieman]

202 and hill of grace...finally the old red motor is getting some respect.

My first car , an HR Holden , sported a 202 with the high comp head. The PO had installed a Holley over his pre-existing triple Webers , which had bled his wallet to the point where he could no longer afford his drug habit. Mind you , eventually he sold the car to me and promptly went out and bought $850 of hash.
Whilst the 202 was a fine motor (which lasted me 7 great years until I ran it low on oil on a long trip) , I wouldn't deem it appropriate for my fully matching numbers '73 Land Rover with the baritone engine note! My warped thinking says my Landy will be worth a lot more in that configuration one day. My "a lot" differs from others' perception of "a lot". It's all relative. Car cost me $1...

[JLD]

How about this: 100% profit on a car, who would believe it! I'll give you $2 for the Landrover

[Blue964]

Love a 202 but had a preference for the 186. The 202 had a habit of pushing con rods out of the side of the block. 186 revved harder and wasn't know for spitting con rods. 

[Skidmarks]

Guys,

Is there any legislation that covers engine case replacement and numbering?

If there isn't I can't see what's wrong with what jnr advised above about what Porsche has done in the past in these situations.  ie transfer the numbers onto a new case and destroy the old. 

It's not as though the engine case has anymore significance than any other major part of the engine that I can see.  (However I agree if the case, the crank and a few more major items were damaged maintaining the existing engine number would be hard to justify.)

Happy to be convinced otherwise by some sound logic but I'm not hearing any yet. 

I think the whole matching numbers thing is just another marketing exercise to differentiate product and hopefully command higher prices for those vehicles that fit this segment. 

There is no specific legislation dealing with case replacement and numbering.  

However, there is a range of both Commonwealth and State based legislation dealing with misleading and deceptive conduct (including conduct that's likely to mislead and deceive) and misrepresation.

There are also a number of common law and equitable causes of action available such as passing off, deceit, fraud, misrepresentation etc. Sale of goods legislation that implies terms such as goods having to fit a description might also apply.

The upshot, if a seller is claiming something is "matching numbers" and but they'd (without disclosing it) sourced another case, destroyed the original and re stamped the clear suggestion/inference would be that it was original (as delivered). 

As a buyer having bought it with the vendor claiming "matching numbers" when it had a replacement engine or even case, notwithstanding it had the right number and the original one was destroyed, then you'd be very well placed to successfully take a poke at the vendor. 

I'm with DJM and others who have said that unless originality matters to you, then the abscence of the original numbers on an otherwise identical engine does not diminish what the car really is.

The thing is, if that's been done, be upfront about it as if you aren't you'll be in the kaka legally.

And an ar$ehole as well. 

 

202 and hill of grace...finally the old red motor is getting some respect.

I'm a big fan of the 202. I used to rebuild the top ends as part of my job at the local servo.  I was also a wiz and replacing the welsh (sic?) plugs.  

[Peter M]

There is no specific legislation dealing with case replacement and numbering.  

However, there is a range of both Commonwealth and State based legislation dealing with misleading and deceptive conduct (including conduct that's likely to mislead and deceive) and misrepresation.

There are also a number of common law and equitable causes of action available such as passing off, deceit, fraud, misrepresentation etc. Sale of goods legislation that implies terms such as goods having to fit a description might also apply.

The upshot, if a seller is claiming something is "matching numbers" and but they'd (without disclosing it) sourced another case, destroyed the original and re stamped the clear suggestion/inference would be that it was original (as delivered). 

As a buyer having bought it with the vendor claiming "matching numbers" when it had a replacement engine or even case, notwithstanding it had the right number and the original one was destroyed, then you'd be very well placed to successfully take a poke at the vendor. 

I'm with DJM and others who have said that unless originality matters to you, then the abscence of the original numbers on an otherwise identical engine does not diminish what the car really is.

The thing is, if that's been done, be upfront about it as if you aren't you'll be in the kaka legally.

And an ar$ehole as well.  

Skids, you've nailed it.  It's all about upfront disclose whether the numbers change or not.

Thanks

[MFX]

If you do (or even if you actually can) buy a case from Porsche that doesn't have an engine number, what other use for it could there be, but to put the original number back on it. It is not like you can just make something up if you want to be honest about a replacement.