Battle for Ukraine

[sleazius]

4 hours ago, FAP911 said:

I'm 100% supportive of protecting a democratic world, and the West got into bed with a dictator, now innocent people are dying, displaced and the world remains divided again! Totally opposed to the Ukraine invasion, but could it have been avoided finding some middle ground! No winners in war particularly the innocent lives lost!

Dictators don't deal in middle grounds - they deal in absolutes. Watch the first 5 minutes of that video I linked to find out why.

You're also glossing over the fact that it is the west who thinks that no-one has empire building in mind anymore, and therefore negotiation will work - I can tell you that Putin and the Panda both have other ideas about that. They're both nuclear armed, and they're both pushing 70 with only a limited amount of time to make their mark on history.

Do they want to be the strong-man who regained their former empire's lost territory, or glossed over as a footnote in history who expanded nothing? This is the issue the world is currently dealing with. Ukraine is just collateral damage to those ends.

[GT3MEZ]

On 28/02/2022 at 17:40, Fishcop said:

Neither Putin or Xi want world domination as a primary exercise.  The are both deeply (and troublingly) nationalist.  Both want a return to their romanticised histories when the USSR and Chinese multi-generational dynasties held enormous power.  These were times when information was controlled and the concept of western politics and liberalism was squashed.  They see the erosion of State by their forbears as a grievous misstep.  Both countries keep the huge majority of their people very poor and reliant on the government and socialist state.  It's only been in recent times that access to information about the rest of the world has made it's way to their people (and the ability for an individual to independently seek and gain wealth).  North Korea is the last bastion of information lockdown and severe State oppression - and they've managed to keep the internet out of the peoples' reach.

Both Russia and China have been consistently embarrassed by the West both intentionally and accidentally - and the countries are led by 70 year old men with long memories, bent perspectives, and a deep hatred of western interference.  Both desire to 'undo the western malaise' in their countries within their lifetimes. 

Xi is untouchable.  Putin could be reined in by other oligarchs if he missteps - this is an endgame for him; it'll either see Russia become an emboldened powerhouse or he'll be internally removed.  I suspect if the latter occurs, it will be before a "button" is pushed.

Whilst I don't disagree in general terms, it is truly uncanny how readily you could find and replace "Putin/Xi" for "any US President since WWII" and have your arguments hold true.

[Fishcop]

4 hours ago, GT3MEZ said:

Whilst I don't disagree in general terms, it is truly uncanny how readily you could find and replace "Putin/Xi" for "any US President since WWII" and have your arguments hold true.

Agree.  With maybe the exception of Carter.  My only other point would be that the USA is 5 minutes old compared to both European and Chinese empires; its "cultural memory" is much shorter.  And it's not looking to expand into Canada or Mexico.

[Cheshire Cat]

Ok, quick update before work.

In the very first post about this war I`ve posted about the "Snake" Island and 13 troops. The story of russian warship.

Good news. Those guys aren`t dead. They captured alive by russians. Presuming.

What exactly happened and why?

Well, for sure I won`t know much of the details for obvious reasons but what do we know so far (or have reasons to believe).

The famous radio chat was real. What happened after it - that warship destroyed all the infrastructure, radio towers and everything on the island. We`ve lost the communication and after some time of no contact with our troops and considered them dead. 
There are rumours they were fighting till the last round then - just put the empty weapons down. 

So, to anyone who cares, basically. 

It`s up to you what to do with that. For me it doesn't change anything. But they are (I hope) alive.

And I think that`s not the end of this story.

p.s. my missus has a friend in russia who has a friend (with benefits I guess) who`s in Ukraine this days on the bad side. His words are:
"we lost HUGE amount of people. And no one knows about it." 

Official Ukrainian stat says the same. Other sources agree with that.

Over.

[flamingporsche]

From the maps, looks to me like Russia is trying to advance a 2nd front at Kyiv so the Ukrainians have to divide their forces to defend the capital.  Russia may be losing heaps of people, but they have a lot of cannon fodder in reserve.  In a war of attrition I can't see how Ukraine prevails.  Hopefully the rest of the world succeeds in intervening before it gets that far.  It's already gone too far.

[brian in buddina]

Interesting article this morning in the Australian. “NATO was no trigger for Putin’s invasion”

 

Seems Putin is playing a bit loose with the facts, providing misinformation or just plain lying, in regards to the  promise of no eastward expansion for NATO.  
 
Mikhail Gorbachev and his Soviet foreign minister Eduard Shevardnadze, said in the article no such promises were made. 

 
 
 

[Raven]

Porsche makes a generous donation to Ukraine crisis .

 

[Cheshire Cat]

1 hour ago, brian in buddina said:

Interesting article this morning in the Australian. “NATO was no trigger for Putin’s invasion”

 

Seems Putin is playing a bit loose with the facts, providing misinformation or just plain lying, in regards to the  promise of no eastward expansion for NATO.  
 
Mikhail Gorbachev and his Soviet foreign minister Eduard Shevardnadze, said in the article no such promises were made.

No one gave any formal promises neither to USSR nor to russia. 

Poorin twists history all the ways, he twists reality. I mean it. 

Recently they shot down to semi independent media sources. People worked there leaving russia.

Russia officially bans word "war" in the case if this war. Official name is "special operation etc" who ever uses the word "war" gets arrested. 

Remember George Orwell and his 1984? Thats what russia is. And I wish I was wrong. 

Yesterday I've asked my russian "friend": "how should I feel about him if my parents and relatives would die". He told me, they supposed to stay home, out of trouble while the whole this is going on. It will be over soon. And just to make it clear for you, gents, it ment: we gonna rape you and you just relax and try to enjoy. 

Blocked the f..wit. He's dead to me.