TINGY Posted 14December, 2013 Report Share Posted 14December, 2013 GM has killed SAAB, Hummer, Pontiac, Opel and now Holden, what else do they own, and by the way, we want our money back Detroit! I wonder how many commodore owners will take off the Chevrodore badges and put a Holden badge back on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bully69 Posted 14December, 2013 Report Share Posted 14December, 2013 I agree with the sentiments on propping up a failing business. Business is business...let the poor performers die...as much as I appreciate the locally made stuff - economics wins out for me. Those soon to be sacked workers - adapt. Now the govt should do the right thing and reduce the stupid taxes on cars.... Having just returned from the middle east where a new 991 is just over 100K we have been missing out for far far too long... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airhead Posted 15December, 2013 Report Share Posted 15December, 2013 Puttin it in perpective from the Sat Age. 84 million passenger cars were made world wide last year. Aust share was 209730 - less than a quarter of 1 per cent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OZ930 Posted 16December, 2013 Report Share Posted 16December, 2013 Maybe some entrepreneur type could take over at least one plant, hire the best designers/engineers from ford and holden, then develop a new alternate type of vehicle that doesn't need fossil fuels, control the patents and sell to the world Dreamin ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted 16December, 2013 Report Share Posted 16December, 2013 UNCLE could do it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OZ930 Posted 16December, 2013 Report Share Posted 16December, 2013 and what is going to happen to the test tracks ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastr Posted 16December, 2013 Report Share Posted 16December, 2013 and what is going to happen to the test tracks ? IIRC they were already for sale, but they might be kept. Holden itself is not closing, just the loss-making assembly plants. it's likely that vehicle development and engineering will still go on, but not sure if there will be enough of that to justify keeping the test tracks running. Maybe some entrepreneur type could take over at least one plant, hire the best designers/engineers from ford and holden, then develop a new alternate type of vehicle that doesn't need fossil fuels, control the patents and sell to the world Dreamin ? Most definitely. An entrepreneur would have to be insane to burn their money on investing in large scale manufacturing in this country, particularly in South Oz, for all the reasons already mentioned. You just don't set out to sail into a direct headwind just so you can paint a flag on a car, unless you want to turn a large fortune into a very small one. Even David Brown got bored with throwing money away on Aston Martin, and they were fun cars to build and sell. Patents are only as useful as the depth of your pockets for defending them in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted 18December, 2013 Report Share Posted 18December, 2013 http://www.holdencampaign.com.au/email/Holden_Manufacturing_Announcement/web.jsp There you go....from Mike DEVEREUX. HOLDENS are here to stay....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurK Posted 19December, 2013 Report Share Posted 19December, 2013 Hopefully Holden retains its engineering experience and continues to contribute to worldwide platform development. The Camaro and Ctsv both owe their lives to the commodore platform. How did you figure that out? The main reason for Holden's demise is the fact it didnt use a global platform and built a unique architecture for the Commodore. At no point is the Camaro and Cadillac related to the Zeta platform of the current VE/VF car. Engineers are going too as the only main engineering centres to remain are in Detroit and Shanghai. The issue is when the MD at the time Peter Hanenberger came up with the grand plan of the VE and using a unique architecture rather than basing it on anything in the GM portfolio. Holden is/was heading to a global platform but I guess we will never see it eventuate as a local manufacturing base. It is a sad day indeed........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurK Posted 19December, 2013 Report Share Posted 19December, 2013 I guess that means there will be a big stockpile of workers lined up to take over mining jobs. The wages for those jobs will then drop to more an average wage, it will become a normal thing to FIFO to a mining job for $60k a year and rarely see the wife and kids in your 3 weeks on 1 week off roster. Poor workers take it up the **** once more. I am lucky to be nearer the end of my working life than the start AND have a good paying job close to home. AND drive a Porsche! We have no future investment in mines in the short term and as the mine goes into production watch what will happen to unemployment in this country. By the time all the auto pull out and I do mean all, the country will be in a world of hurt. Mining employment to drop 70%+ of its work force at the same time as 40-50K auto and associated industries dropping their workforce too. Hmmm great thinking Abbott........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurK Posted 19December, 2013 Report Share Posted 19December, 2013 and what is going to happen to the test tracks ? Its up for sale - Linfox might buy it by some reports in the media Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustJames Posted 20December, 2013 Report Share Posted 20December, 2013 ...Mining employment to drop 70%+ of its work force at the same time as 40-50K auto and associated industries dropping their workforce too. Hmmm great thinking Abbott........Sorry Arthur, but I don't see this as a political issue.How much tax are you prepared to pay to have an iconic Aussie motor manufacturer/airline/typewriter manufacturer?If subsidised manufactured goods are exported, then you're talking about exporting those subsidies so that people in the rest of the world can buy goods cheaper than they could without your subsidy - you're no longer subsidising Aussie jobs, you're exporting the subsidies and subsidising RoW consumers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurK Posted 20December, 2013 Report Share Posted 20December, 2013 Sorry Arthur, but I don't see this as a political issue. How much tax are you prepared to pay to have an iconic Aussie motor manufacturer/airline/typewriter manufacturer? If subsidised manufactured goods are exported, then you're talking about exporting those subsidies so that people in the rest of the world can buy goods cheaper than they could without your subsidy - you're no longer subsidising Aussie jobs, you're exporting the subsidies and subsidising RoW consumers. Ummmm so what car do you drive JustJames? ALL auto makers receive subsidies in every country that manufactures. Does that mean you should be paying more for your car too? Its a blinkered view we have about this situation. It has nothing to do with lining pockets of auto makers, it has to do with investing in our people and our future. Australia is one of the lowest subsidising countries in the world in the auto sector. Lets talk about our favourite brand Porsche what subsidies do you think they get from Germany? If you think its $0 then we have our heads in the sand................. I find it strange that we are not interested in investing in employment and future generations of engineers and techinal people. If I came to you with a business investment and I said to you that if you put in $1000 I will bring you back a benefit of $16000 in direct and indirect benefits would you be interested? As you said lets not be political about this lets be businessmen. Would you knock back 16x ROI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted 20December, 2013 Report Share Posted 20December, 2013 Definitely a shame to see Holden and Ford stop making cars in Aus. My Falcon is a ripper and I'll buy a new one in 2016, the last year they will make them. Unfortunately, while people are getting up and saying they love the local product, sales figures tell a different story. As much as I love my 911, if I could only have one car it would be a Falcon. The big sedans really are still the best all rounder vehicles for Australia IMO but todays huge range of choices and greater consumer buying power has made them yesterdays cars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastr Posted 20December, 2013 Report Share Posted 20December, 2013 Ummmm so what car do you drive JustJames? ALL auto makers receive subsidies in every country that manufactures. Does that mean you should be paying more for your car too? Its a blinkered view we have about this situation. It has nothing to do with lining pockets of auto makers, it has to do with investing in our people and our future. Australia is one of the lowest subsidising countries in the world in the auto sector. Lets talk about our favourite brand Porsche what subsidies do you think they get from Germany? If you think its $0 then we have our heads in the sand................. I find it strange that we are not interested in investing in employment and future generations of engineers and techinal people. If I came to you with a business investment and I said to you that if you put in $1000 I will bring you back a benefit of $16000 in direct and indirect benefits would you be interested? As you said lets not be political about this lets be businessmen. Would you knock back 16x ROI? If the German government wants to tax Germans to make Porsches and BmWs cheaper for Aussies to buy, fantastic. The point being missed here is that we are being asked to pay more tax to find an inefficient and unprofitable business, then we pay more tax on the sales of imported cars to protect that inefficient business. The import market is then penalized further with soft protections like parallels import bans and ADRs. The end result is that Austrlain new cars buyers spend an estimated $3 billion more than they should, every year, for overpriced cars, if you took that money and stopped it being carried away in foreign profits and govt taxes, that means ther would be an awful lot more money available for people to spend on other things. I'm sure there are people on this board who work in construction, hospitality, services, who knows what. Each of these businesses would benefit from more money in the pockets of Austrlaians, and more money spent creates more jobs. Employment is created through sound, profitable investment, not through make-work schemes. I applaud Gillard for letting Ford go, and applaud Abbott for letting Holden go. It is painful but nothing that cannot go on will go on. Return the money back to the people who earnt it, instead of creating a protected class of workers with conditions that e rest of the taxpayers could only dream about. It will all work out better for everyone after the grief has subsided, Note that this does not mean the end of manufacturing, just the end of subsidised, protected manufacturing. And that is ultimately a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustJames Posted 20December, 2013 Report Share Posted 20December, 2013 Ummmm so what car do you drive JustJames? ALL auto makers receive subsidies in every country that manufactures. Does that mean you should be paying more for your car too? Its a blinkered view we have about this situation. It has nothing to do with lining pockets of auto makers, it has to do with investing in our people and our future. Australia is one of the lowest subsidising countries in the world in the auto sector. Lets talk about our favourite brand Porsche what subsidies do you think they get from Germany? If you think its $0 then we have our heads in the sand................. I find it strange that we are not interested in investing in employment and future generations of engineers and techinal people. If I came to you with a business investment and I said to you that if you put in $1000 I will bring you back a benefit of $16000 in direct and indirect benefits would you be interested? As you said lets not be political about this lets be businessmen. Would you knock back 16x ROI?Hi Arthur. My daily drive is irrelevant. As is "what the other kids are doing".To carry on with something I hinted at, if Holden were the iconic Australian typewriter brand, how would people feel about government payouts to keep the great Australian typewriter brand in business? How many schools, police stations, operating theatres and water treatment plants should we be laughing off in order to support Holden?These thousands of workers in related businesses...firstly, we need to look at the numbers involved. Secondly, we need to ask whether those skills can't be used to supply other firms and other industries.Lastly, manufacturing ends in what, 3 or 4 years. That gives people plenty of time to re-skill and re-deploy.If this sounds heartless, I've been through 2 redundancy progroms, back when I used to have a real job, so I have first hand experience of what it's like, right down to one of them being at Christmas time. But the answer to a private enterprise business that can't make a profit is never to subsidise it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurK Posted 20December, 2013 Report Share Posted 20December, 2013 If the German government wants to tax Germans to make Porsches and BmWs cheaper for Aussies to buy, fantastic. The point being missed here is that we are being asked to pay more tax to find an inefficient and unprofitable business, then we pay more tax on the sales of imported cars to protect that inefficient business. The import market is then penalized further with soft protections like parallels import bans and ADRs. The end result is that Austrlain new cars buyers spend an estimated $3 billion more than they should, every year, for overpriced cars, if you took that money and stopped it being carried away in foreign profits and govt taxes, that means ther would be an awful lot more money available for people to spend on other things. I'm sure there are people on this board who work in construction, hospitality, services, who knows what. Each of these businesses would benefit from more money in the pockets of Austrlaians, and more money spent creates more jobs. Employment is created through sound, profitable investment, not through make-work schemes. I applaud Gillard for letting Ford go, and applaud Abbott for letting Holden go. It is painful but nothing that cannot go on will go on. Return the money back to the people who earnt it, instead of creating a protected class of workers with conditions that e rest of the taxpayers could only dream about. It will all work out better for everyone after the grief has subsided, Note that this does not mean the end of manufacturing, just the end of subsidised, protected manufacturing. And that is ultimately a good thing. And what you think cars are going to get cheaper because of this? Sure the government is going to let go of that revenue as well......... Wonder how long it will be before the 5% tariff is removed on imported cars now that we have no local manufacturing. Wonder if they will remove the LCT and wonder if the prevention of parallel imports will be lifted. My guess none of the above will happen in a hurry. If you believe manufacturing is not dead in this country then you are in for a rude shock.......... As a matter of interest Coastr do you believe that Australia will have any form of manufacturing in the country in say 10 years time and if we do what will it look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurK Posted 20December, 2013 Report Share Posted 20December, 2013 Hi Arthur. My daily drive is irrelevant. As is "what the other kids are doing". To carry on with something I hinted at, if Holden were the iconic Australian typewriter brand, how would people feel about government payouts to keep the great Australian typewriter brand in business? How many schools, police stations, operating theatres and water treatment plants should we be laughing off in order to support Holden? These thousands of workers in related businesses...firstly, we need to look at the numbers involved. Secondly, we need to ask whether those skills can't be used to supply other firms and other industries. Lastly, manufacturing ends in what, 3 or 4 years. That gives people plenty of time to re-skill and re-deploy. If this sounds heartless, I've been through 2 redundancy progroms, back when I used to have a real job, so I have first hand experience of what it's like, right down to one of them being at Christmas time. But the answer to a private enterprise business that can't make a profit is never to subsidise it. What you have failed to realised is that I dont care about Holden what I care about is what we as a country will stand for and produce going forward? The spin off effect is far too great with losing an auto industry. Who will ever want to be an engineer in this country? We have some of the best auto engineers working here and beyond 2016 we will have nothing. We are creating a brain drain........ Re train and redeploy to what? Where are the new industries that are going to take up the slack? Where are the investment projects in infrastructure to take up slack? I dont see it as a black and white situation of kill off the subsidies and all will be sweet. Do people actually know what money terms we are talking about here? Do we know how the ledger looks like when we take out the auto subsidies what it does to the economic impact on the country? What is the tax revenue loss to the government? What is the social security payouts that they will be making to these people? What is the social economic impact to the areas that will directly effect these people. Its not a black and white "stuff them they need to make it work on their own" situation. We need some forthought on what the long term impact will be and having Victoria and South Australia in recession till 2028 is not ideal....... Does this impact me directly yes and no, do I know more about this whole situation than I care to, yes. Having a family member directly working on this has been an eye opener. Seeing the workings of both sides of politics and the impact studies that have been generated is very gut wrenching. I too can have the attitude of stuff them I run my business and who helps me? No-one! But guess what if I start losing clients because of this and I know I will as we take care of auto suppliers it will spill over to my sector as well and I am in IT........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nath Posted 20December, 2013 Report Share Posted 20December, 2013 Wow getting heated in here. With Holden and ford it's a lesson in falling to adapt to the market which is woeful really. As for manufacturing it's not dead, no where near from my experience. I work in the Defence sector and the next 20 years will be the largest manufacturing increase in Defence history since probably WWII, across both the ship and vehicle building industry. Just look at the work being done in Adelaide with the AWD and future submarines and the increase in capability for ship maintenance and manufacture in SA having re largest dry dock in the Southern Hemisphere. The we have Thales in Victoria on the brink of a contract with the government worth hundreds of millions over decades that before the Holden shit down was an 85% lock and would now be a guarantee all of which were already designed and to be manufactured using Holden's workforce and production lines to a point, and this platform may well pickup a US contract which will see hundreds of thousands of the vehicles exported, not to mention the amunition factory in country Vic or the fact they've been manufacturing and exporting bushmasters for over a decade out of Victoria. The death of part of the car manufacturing is a blow no doubt, but the alarmist nature of some of the media reporting that it spells the end of manufacturing in Aus is somewhat over stated. Newscastle is the model they should be looking to, it is fast becoming a centre for medical research from the ashes of the heavy industrial that when closed spelled the end of Newcastle and the start of the end for manufacturing in Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarreraG50 Posted 20December, 2013 Report Share Posted 20December, 2013 Per capita we are way below the US and Germany. It is not fair to compare us with Korea etc only other countries with a similar standard of living. The loss is in skills and training, many of our engineers etc were trained in the car industry. For mine I'm sorry to lose the Falcon and Commodore, even though I don't own either and I guess thats the problem. If we dont buy them we lose them, so I am to blame............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurK Posted 20December, 2013 Report Share Posted 20December, 2013 Per capita we are way below the US and Germany. It is not fair to compare us with Korea etc only other countries with a similar standard of living. The loss is in skills and training, many of our engineers etc were trained in the car industry. For mine I'm sorry to lose the Falcon and Commodore, even though I don't own either and I guess thats the problem. If we dont buy them we lose them, so I am to blame............. Actually South Korea's standard of living and cost of living isnt that far off Australia........ S. Korea is not a cheap place any more. My concern is the loss of skills and training and the auto industry was the stepping stone for all of these guys to bigger and brighter futures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OZ930 Posted 20December, 2013 Report Share Posted 20December, 2013 and the TV ads start …..we're not leaving….just making your Holden cars overseas I feel better already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastr Posted 20December, 2013 Report Share Posted 20December, 2013 Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy to see this happen, but the solution is not bending over and Subsidising forever. Part of the problem is that the assemblers have always been able to run to the government Instead of trading their way out. A close relative has a factory in Victoria that had big contracts with Nissan and that nearly caused closure when they left. But they recovered and managed to keep going with non- automotive work. Things can get better. The real issue here is that we, as a country, refuse to confront head-on the real problems that manufacturing faces, and try and paper over the cracks with handouts and subsidies. Manufacturing can survive and prosper, but the settings need to be right. That includes less regulations, lower punitive taxes like payroll, forgetting the ridiculous EBAs lat Holden and Toyota have and going back to having the cheapest energy in the world instead of the most expensive. As already mentioned Germany and South Korea have similar labor rates, but the total cost of a orkforce is much more than just the hours paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted 20January, 2014 Report Share Posted 20January, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/embed/Lvl5Gan69Wo So is this where the next GM car is going to come from..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAFE Posted 20January, 2014 Report Share Posted 20January, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/embed/Lvl5Gan69Wo So is this where the next GM car is going to come from..... ouch and more than just a little bit scary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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