used prices of 9 year old 911 versus 10+ year old

[acid_rider]

greetings

 

I am continuing my research into buying my first (used) 911....

 

please correct me if I am wrong below and offer explanations.

 

I am looking at used prices of 911 cars which are 9 years or younger (997.1 and 997.2) and therefore do have 1 year or more of Porsche 10-year warranty available.

I am comparing these prices with cars that are 10 years or older (i.e. 996 1997-2004) which do not offer any kind of warranty.

 

Both engines have a fair share of problems, more so with 996 and 997.1.

 

I am not seeing dramatic price differences once the 10 year old age is crossed in used prices sold by the dealers. I.e. a 996 built in 2002-2004 (10 years) is not hugely cheaper than 997.1 from 2005-2006 (8-9 years, i.e. 1-2 years warranty is available).

There is ~$15K difference only yet 997.1 is a big advance over 996 as well as have 1 year warranty.

 

I saw 2005-2006 997.1 for $80-90K (approx.) and 2003-2004 model 996 are still asking for $65-$75K, assuming similar options, i.e. only 15K cheaper. Considering an engine rebuild of 996 or 997.1 would probably cost $25K or more (assuming use of genuine Porsche parts, carried out by approved dealer), I would expect at least $25K cheaper price on 996 from 2004 than 997.1 from 2005.

 

is this correct or have I misread the prices?

 

if I am correct - why so?

 

thanks

[Coastr]

The price is not determined by any sort of logic like you're putting together.  It's priced based on how they shift off the lot at that particular point.  I doubt the average buyer does anything like the sort of calculations, and condition and mileage, options and transmissions trump any type of warranty available.

[Black Pearl]

Whilst being more of an older car guy I could suggest that there are a couple of factors are at play here. 

 

Firstly, don't mistake advertised prices for what they're actually getting sold for. Many sellers not active in the market will find their perspective recallibrated, especially those selling 996's who bought from new. 

 

Another perspective is that buying a porsche falls way on the end of the emotional side of the buying spectrum. As coastr suggested, the quantitative approach you applied would be more common for government fleet buyers rather than someone buying an emotional luxury. The resultant subjectivity will then see other factors like colour mix, location, seasonality etc start to play a factor, otherwise everyone would simply buy silver corollas.

[Hounddub]

Absolutely spot on Black Pearl.

[Hounddub]

acid_rider, I've lost track of which thread to put this on but check this one out:

 

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Porsche-911-Carrera-2005/SSE-AD-2592711/?Cr=6&sdmvc=1

 

Private seller, Rushcutter's Bay address, full Porsche History, 44K kms, black on black......right in your budget (and its got new brakes on it)

 

Get on it son!

[acid_rider]

Thanks, it looks nice BUT

 

Sydney is too far for me to travel from Melbourne!

 

I realize some of you bought your cars interstate, but I am not prepared to travel outside Melbourne for one.

Happy to sit and wait for the right car at the right price to come to a (reputable!) Melbourne dealer..... Even if it takes many months.

[Davhen]

As the very happy owner of a 2005 997 the logic you are attempting above doesn't work because not all 997's qualify for the warranty.

 

The warranty costs I think $2000 a year to buy.  Had my IMS retrofit done At Jocaro with a clutch and service for $3500 and the clutch

 

was the most expensive part and not covered by warranty.  Discussed it with Sean and Calvin (at Jocaro)  and I had owned the car for 18

 

months and 20000 K's before I did the Job.  There is lots more that can go wrong of course and no major repair is cheap on any 911.

 

Of course I wholly approve of your choice and agree that waiting for the right car is the only way to go....

[acid_rider]

I just test drove a 2004/2005 997.1 auto at Porsche Brighton dealer and asked him about the repair prices.

 

He said to rebuild/replace the 997.1 engine, if it blows up, will cost me about $10K and to rebuild/replace the 5-speed tip-tronic automatic transmisson will cost me about $6K. To replace the disks + brake pads, he said, will cost about $1800 for all 4 corners. This is using genuine parts with work done at Porsche dealer.

 

Was he telling the truth, folks?????

 

I was under impression those costs would be at least two times higher than what he claimed.....

[Hounddub]

Fair enough. But cars like the one I posted are usually tough to find....and Sydney is a short drive away (just ask Orion)

 

Maybe you need to hope there's one in your preferred colour that will turn up with a bow on it only 5 min from your home.

[Simonoz]

Fair enough. But cars like the one I posted are usually tough to find....and Sydney is a short drive away (just ask Orion)

 

Maybe you need to hope there's one in your preferred colour that will turn up with a bow on it only 5 min from your home.

I can guarantee only one thing, and that is that five minutes after the ink dries on the contract for your new 911, the one in your preferred colour with a bow on it located five minutes from home will be advertised. It's an immutable law of car buying.

Good luck with the hunt. Personally I agree with Hounddub, but what would I know having bought fifteen of the ruddy things, from all over Australia. If I had waited each time as you suggest you will, I would never have bought any of them. Life's too short, so get into it son!

[Hounddub]

Acid_rider. I just want to clarify my last comment so it doesnt look like I'm having a go.

 

You're spending $80-90K on a 9 year old car. You're clearly smart and very involved in the decision making process. You've joined this forum looking for advice from other owners just like you. But you're not prepared to entertain looking at a car that's a $200 flight away?

 

I would have thought that if the right car came up anywhere within a day's drive of your home you'd jump at it. There's plenty on this site from Sydney who would happily help with an inspection, use this to your advantage.

 

You've posted a heap of topics regarding ownership reliability, servicing, repair costs......but my honest and heartfelt advice is put your energy behind getting the very best car you can buy for your money. And if it's in Sydney or Adelaide or Brissy.....then find a way to assess it, and buy it if it's the right one.

 

Simon has just bought a GT2 for WAY more cash than you are looking at....from Sydney and shipped it to Perth! Orion bought his from Sydney and had a great drive home to Melbourne for his first drive.

 

Wouldn't you like the same first experience for your first day with your Porsche?

[acid_rider]

thank you folks, all good advice! Duly noted!

 

So, can anyone comment on the dealer claim that in worst case scenario if a 997.1 or 996 engine M96/M97 blows up due to IMS bearing or scored cylinders or any other issue that it will cost about $10K to have it rebuilt/replaced?

And if the tiptronic automatic from 996/997 blows up that it will cost about $6K to rebuild/replace?

(this is all inclusive claim - all parts and all labour, using genuine Porsche parts and using Porsche service technicians doing the work).

 

Is the dealer telling the truth?

If not - what would the worst case cost be - to replace/rebuild M96/M97 engine and the automatic tiptronic on 997/996 cars??

[ByronBayChris]

Engine rebuild is always double what you think. Trust me.

My advice.... Don't worry about the costs too much as they ruin the experience. Buy he car, and drive it and find out how different it is to a Benz and BMW (I've had/got both).

[hugh]

thank you folks, all good advice! Duly noted!

 

So, can anyone comment on the dealer claim that in worst case scenario if a 997.1 or 996 engine M96/M97 blows up due to IMS bearing or scored cylinders or any other issue that it will cost about $10K to have it rebuilt/replaced?

And if the tiptronic automatic from 996/997 blows up that it will cost about $6K to rebuild/replace?

(this is all inclusive claim - all parts and all labour, using genuine Porsche parts and using Porsche service technicians doing the work).

 

Is the dealer telling the truth?

If not - what would the worst case cost be - to replace/rebuild M96/M97 engine and the automatic tiptronic on 997/996 cars??

Personally I would expect it to be more but again it is very difficult to put a price on it given the potential variables. Yes Porsches can be expensive to maintain or fix but this is no different to any other euro manufacturer (+ they are a high performance sports car).

I think Black Pearl nailed it in the 3rd post, you don't look to buy a sports car with your sensible trousers on. This thread is a good read, really enjoying the responses.

[edgy]

Engine rebuild is always double what you think. Trust me.

My advice.... Don't worry about the costs too much as they ruin the experience. Buy he car, and drive it and find out how different it is to a Benz and BMW (I've had/got both).

+1

Try not to focus on the worse case scenarios too much... We all know motor & transmission are rebuilds never a cheap conversation to have, however bare it in mind as an incentive to give your car the best upkeep you possibly can.

IMO focus on the big ticket consumables.. If you can afford those, no worries. Pull the trigger!

I know if I found myself doing a $25k engine rebuild in 10-20 years, I can live with that...

Or do as I do and compare it to your other stupid hobbies... Ie boats

[GC9911]

acid_rider, I've lost track of which thread to put this on but check this one out:

 

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Porsche-911-Carrera-2005/SSE-AD-2592711/?Cr=6&sdmvc=1

 

Private seller, Rushcutter's Bay address, full Porsche History, 44K kms, black on black......right in your budget (and its got new brakes on it)

 

Get on it son!

Agree with Houndhub, this is a great car, you have to be prepared to travel for the right car. It's a quest not a convenience thing IMHO. Ruschcutters Bay is an upmarket suburb, I find good cars come from these areas as the owners have the money to maintain them properly & are realistic about sale prices. Good luck with your search.

[clutch-monkey]

Thanks, it looks nice BUT

 

Sydney is too far for me to travel from Melbourne!

 

I realize some of you bought your cars interstate, but I am not prepared to travel outside Melbourne for one.

Happy to sit and wait for the right car at the right price to come to a (reputable!) Melbourne dealer..... Even if it takes many months.

 

come on- where's the adventure? a bank cheque and a one way plane ticket is the best way to start the journey

[edgy]

come on- where's the adventure? a bank cheque and a one way plane ticket is the best way to start the journey

Yeah... I can honestly say that it was a fun way to do business & pleasure!

[TrevMcRev]

Those rebuild prices sound under, i think he's being conservative to not scare you off, he want's to make a sale and knows your worried.

 

But i don't think it matters...  Find out if the IMS has been done, if it has, don't worry.  And if it hasn't budget $2-3k and get it done, then don't worry.

 

Ask BMW & Mercedes how much a rebuild is on a similar price level car.  

 

I don't think you'll be rebuilding an M5 or E63 for that money either....

[Simonoz]

I think it's worth noting perhaps that Porsches are made to be utterly and absolutely flogged to within an inch of their lives.

Most of the issues that people have had with 911's, 996's and 997's included, have been caused by a lack of use, poor servicing, or inappropriate use ie, not enough caning when warmed up.

To imagine that you're going to suffer an unexplained blow up is going to ruin the experience altogether, and it won't be a reasonable concern.

In fact it may promote exactly the issue you want to avoid, as you will baby it.

I agree with others, get the IMS done, and then drive the thing, hard and often as it's designed to be driven.

Service it properly always, and enjoy it.

Tiptronics don't let go. I have only heard of one in all my years, and that was in a 968 with doubtful history ie, a rear end shunt in the past.

If you want absolutely bulletproof, without the IMS issue, then buy a Turbo or a GT3 with the Mezger motor.

Porsches have a high resale versus other prestige cars in part because they are so well made. I hope you find the car of your dreams and enjoy it, sooner rather than later.

[T-Man]

I think it's worth noting perhaps that Porsches are made to be utterly and absolutely flogged to within an inch of their lives.

...................................not enough caning when warmed up.

 

 

I really have to admire this sort of attitude Simon.

 

No point in buying a performance car if you're not going to give it a spanking!!!

[acid_rider]

terrific replies, thanks guys!!

[ArthurK]

terrific replies, thanks guys!!

Acid,

If you are reluctant due to the IMS issue etc and you dont need 4 seats then I would highly recommend you expand the search to including the series 2 Caymans. You can get them in your price range and you will have the peace of mind that you are buying a newer car and the IMS does not come into the equation.

I drive a 991 and I can tell you now that if I didnt need 4 seats I would drive a current cayman in a heart beat. Took one around the Porsche track and it blew me away. They are fun to drive and quite nimble at it too. You get a lot of car for what they are, BUT it is not a 911. If this is your entry in to the marque and you want it to be painless and without worries in the back of your mind take a cayman for a drive you will be impressed. It will have to be an S to get close to base 911 performance (but still wont be the same) and you will only ever really know the difference on a track.

Arthur

[acid_rider]

Acid,

If you are reluctant due to the IMS issue etc and you dont need 4 seats then I would highly recommend you expand the search to including the series 2 Caymans. You can get them in your price range and you will have the peace of mind that you are buying a newer car and the IMS does not come into the equation.

I drive a 991 and I can tell you now that if I didnt need 4 seats I would drive a current cayman in a heart beat. Took one around the Porsche track and it blew me away. They are fun to drive and quite nimble at it too. You get a lot of car for what they are, BUT it is not a 911. If this is your entry in to the marque and you want it to be painless and without worries in the back of your mind take a cayman for a drive you will be impressed. It will have to be an S to get close to base 911 performance (but still wont be the same) and you will only ever really know the difference on a track.

Arthur

 

Thanks Arthur,

 

I don't need 4 seats.

What you say is very intriguing, I never really considered Cayman/Boxter..... Perhaps I should?

 

Please tell me what year build/model/engine Cayman '2-series' should I look at re no-IMS issues?

Also, is the Cayman automatic (PDK?) as easy to drive in traffic as the automatic 997 ?

Does it also have Porsche factory 10 year warranty available?

Does it cost as much to own as non-turbo 997 ?

 

THANKS!!

[ArthurK]

Thanks Arthur,

I don't need 4 seats.

What you say is very intriguing, I never really considered Cayman/Boxter..... Perhaps I should?

Please tell me what year build/model/engine Cayman '2-series' should I look at re no-IMS issues?

Also, is the Cayman automatic (PDK?) as easy to drive in traffic as the automatic 997 ?

Does it also have Porsche factory 10 year warranty available?

Does it cost as much to own as non-turbo 997 ?

THANKS!!

Anything with pdk will be safe as I'm pretty certain that pdk was the introduction of the new engine '09 is the model year. Warranty upgrades are valid just the same and maintenance cost should in theory be no different.