Crowd Funding a Build

[turboT]

Building a car can be an expensive business. Building a 'perfect' P-car is a tricky balance between nostalgia, engineering and ultimate use.I am playing around in my head the notion of creating such a car and am putting the team together as we speak. The 'dream' is to be able to build a low volume, exclusive, and yes relatively pricey, but beautifully engineered and finished product, that even if you can't afford it, you definitely want to look, touch and know about its every detail. 

 

It is this enthusiasm that fuels development projects like you find on KickStarter. We would need to demonstrate our full understanding of the engineering challenges and ambitions aswell as the visual direction of the project. For a donation as small as $50 you get access to projects from the ground up and effectively watch something you have contributed to, develop and finally become something real. 

 

PFA members are clearly representative of the best kind of Porsche enthusiastic Porsche owners so I thought I would ask the question:

 

Would anyone here want to be part of and financially contribute to a build? Lets say we were talking a minimum of $50, and offered varying amounts from that to say $1000, each offering a different level of 'thankyou' for your contribution.

 

and then the important part:

 

What would you want in return? Kickstarter doesn't allow financial reward, but does allow product, participation, experience  - stuff like that.

 

These are questions posed really to just get your thoughts and reactions at this stage. Its not real yet, but it is a potential option open to us, so please any contributions would be welcome.

 

 

[clutch-monkey]

What return/product would there be? I.e. Do contributors over a certain amount get cheaper access to parts developed during such a project

[turboT]

What return/product would there be? I.e. Do contributors over a certain amount get cheaper access to parts developed during such a project

That's exactly the kind of thinking I am after. Right now just want as many ideas as possible as to what would appeal to PFA members.

[Dusty]

And how much do you think you'll need to get this off the ground? Regardless of whether I was investing/donating $50 or $1k, I'd want to know how much impact I was having at getting this off the ground.

[turboT]

And how much do you think you'll need to get this off the ground? Regardless of whether I was investing/donating $50 or $1k, I'd want to know how much impact I was having at getting this off the ground.

Working on this now dusty. It maybe that we can't do the total figure through this approach and we just look at components but a whole car project of the quality I am thinking would be 'at least' $250k. A lot of components for the build would of course be sourced from what is currently available on the market.

[Coastr]

All kickstarter (and clones thereof) have a minimum funding level that has to be met before the funds are taken from the pledges and given towards the project owner.

I personally wouldn't be interested because there is nothing to be gained from a 'car build'. If you were talking about development of individual parts, then there might be something more interesting. So, for example, if you wanted to create a kickstarter project to fund development of a new carbon fibre wing and worked out the budget to develop it, and provided early copies of that wing to contributors, then you might be onto something. Or brakes, or wheels, or something like that. But a whole car - well, that's too big if you ask me.

The carbon fibre targa top that some guys on Pelican developed would have made an ideal kickstarter project, as it gives the funds for development and a guaranteed initial order book. Or maybe new AC parts, or something else to cure a 911 shortcoming.

[turboT]

All kickstarter (and clones thereof) have a minimum funding level that has to be met before the funds are taken from the pledges and given towards the project owner.

I personally wouldn't be interested because there is nothing to be gained from a 'car build'. If you were talking about development of individual parts, then there might be something more interesting. So, for example, if you wanted to create a kickstarter project to fund development of a new carbon fibre wing and worked out the budget to develop it, and provided early copies of that wing to contributors, then you might be onto something. Or brakes, or wheels, or something like that. But a whole car - well, that's too big if you ask me.

The carbon fibre targa top that some guys on Pelican developed would have made an ideal kickstarter project, as it gives the funds for development and a guaranteed initial order book. Or maybe new AC parts, or something else to cure a 911 shortcoming.

Good feedback. Definitely thinking carbon fibre components could form part of the build, and would be attractive to those interested in their own builds

[michel]

my 2 cents turbot some may be happy with limited edition art work, , print photos scuulpture, 3d printed scale parts and or complete model - some may want a date night

 

there are a number of interesting crowd sourced auto build projects out there. An american company name currently escapes gets buy in, as they open up the design process, getting ideas from amateurs and pros alike - the best of the crowd sourced design then voted by the community and they then put it into production.

 

I reckon your market place as you know is beyond PFA - get cracking on the 'idea' and produce a few aspirationall renders to get the juices flowing. gotta get some runs on the board and build a bit hyperbole

 

though one of the issues you face is how to position yourself in what is a relatively  small market and price difference aside, avoid the 'not another singer clone tribute'.

 

BTW if the exchange rate hadnt shifted Id have suggested NZ as a place to bo a build.

[Pauly]

Hmm. I'm not seeing the full picture. 

 

usually funding projects like from kick starter, You usually get a return of your investment. Ie. $1000 investment, you should be getting something that is worth $1000 or more for a return of the investment. 

 

For some, who don't have the base model car you're wanting to use, may not be able to get a return on their investment as they could have a different model or platform Porsche. 

 

I like the idea of building a P-car ect. We did something similar of building a "charity car" everyone put loose change or donation into a box. bought a shit box and modified it. people donated parts or their spare time to fix and modify the car, then end up selling the car off and donating the money to a charity. 

[turboT]

2 cents are welcome:)

also aware the market for the end product might be beyond PFA, but the interest here is real for the process, and as some have attested to above, the potential components that comeout of this process.

'audience participation design' I might leave for now - i wonder how well that build turned out..

Singer Clone tribute...yes, this is a real concern, but might be hard to avoid the comparisons in reality. Certainly their quality and attention to detail, often lacking in other pretenders, is what we will be aiming for here. + lets face it a Singer is $700,000+ landed here in OZ. They have created a worldwide desire, but can't possibly service every market(especially OZ) if this is what they cost. So maybe there lies the opportunity...

pretty picture are a way off, but will be part of the pitch definitely!

[turboT]

 

usually funding projects like from kick starter, You usually get a return of your investment. Ie. $1000 investment, you should be getting something that is worth $1000 or more for a return of the investment. 

 

not always the case

[J.J.]

forgive me if I am wrong, are you basically planning to build a 250k Porsche hot rod, funded by PFA members and offer something to each who have contributed to your build, but at the end your the one left owning the 250k car?

 

I can't see how this will work, unless everyone on the forum ends up with a 250k hot rod

[michel]

You can also get kisses and quality time ...

Btw this whole crowd source palava ain't anything new ... http://www.overtheriverinfo.com/index.php/about-over-the-river/

It's gotta though be visceral capture the imagination and allow the 'community' to participate have ownership attend the spectacle etc avarice lust and what not

[turboT]

forgive me if I am wrong, are you basically planning to build a 250k Porsche hot rod, funded by PFA members and offer something to each who have contributed to your build, but at the end your the one left owning the 250k car?

 

I can't see how this will work, unless everyone on the forum ends up with a 250k hot rod

J.J. you cynic - michael's got the rights idea - the 'visceral capture stuff."

But what if your 'contribution' bought you a lottery ticket to 'win' the first car?. Would you put $250 of your hard earned down knowing you had a 1:1000 chance of being the new owner..

[J.J.]

yeah I would, where do I buy the ticket?

[turboT]

yeah I would, where do I buy the ticket?

ha - one of many options, but glad I've got your attention

[Airhead]

My parents weren’t rich and every Pcar (and other brands) I’ve own/owned I’ve had to get with my own hard earned.

Haven’t managed to get one for nothing yet.

[Tit]

Micheal is thinking of this crowd: https://localmotors.com/

(scroll down for all the info)

 

Crowd-sourced design came up with this beast:

 

[Coastr]

Local motors is crowd sourced, not crowd funded. There is a distinct difference. They have tried some crowdfunding for other things.

The idea is to create an open-source product where the ideas of many people go into the final product, not necessarily the wallets of many people.

Open source talks about 'free as in speech, not free as in beer'. As in, you're free to copy and contribute, but you don't get free labour to build you a product.

Building a cohesive design requires a singular vision and not a design by committee. So I think that side of things is out. Selling the prospect of getting a free car is a tough one. The lottery ticket idea would be well outside of crowdfunding rules.

[ByronBayChris]

T

Sounds like you are asking for $1,000 to be invested by 250 shareholders. Then you can all sell the car and recover the costs. Managing 250 enthusiast shareholders? Your job not mine.

Would you stump up 50% yourself as a show of commitment? Then the other 50% would be (relatively) simple.

All you are asking for is sone see funding. Crowd funding is not the answer for this. Different model in my.opinion (which has been wrong innate past)

Get your prospectus done and raise the capital. If your management team (not just you) has passion and ability, then anything is possible.

[withers]

If you were going to raffle the car once it's built giving all funders a chance to win - maybe.  OR put it up to auction and then divide the funds up amongst the funders - maybe.  Or as someone else said - have new parts designed, manufactured and offered at a discount rate to the funders - maybe.

 

It seems like a very extravagant ask of people to donate funds to build a car, a car that might be nowhere near them, they can't see it, drive or touch it.  And what happens if it gets wrapped around a tree?  Or stolen?  Be nearly impossible to insure it at it's crowd funded value surely?

 

Who would own the car? Who's name would it be under? Would you register a business and put the car under it?  And who's to say that person won't do a runner with it?  Not saying you are dishonest TurboT, I'm just putting some thoughts out there.

 

Usually at the end of a kickstarter project you get something in your hands for the $ spent or maybe an application on your iPad for example. 

 

I'll shut up now, as the idea does not interest me.  Not owning a Porsche or having one built the way I want it to be built is such a first world problem! 

[turboT]

So after a day of feedback it is clear I am coming across as an evil extortionist out to get you guys to buy me a car for free

Wasn't really the point. Crowd funding is a way of getting people involved in the creative process and allowing 'you' all to feel a little better about the world by actually getting involved with making something from nothing.

That said I am on a forum full of 'grease monkeys' (said with the greatest of respect), so probably don't realize the joy some get from being part of something bigger, because you are all so good at constructing things for yourselves.

Something makes me think I will get no joy on Pelican Parts either...

[Shady Speedway]

Building a car is a tad ambitious from my eyes.

 

It would be fine if we all agreed that an orange 1980 924 targa sporto 4wd was the ultimate car.

 

Truth is everybody is different, to think all the investors could settle on a design is a little optimistic.

 

Maybe test the water by aiming for something with a known quantity. 

 

For example obsolete parts, survey the market, find out what is in demand. Then have it made.

 

Everybody can agree this is what we need and what the outcome will be.

 

There is a guy in Europe that has done this with the snorkel head light washers from mid 70's 911 along with other parts.

 

My car is missing 2 little rubber bushes that center the boot lid. This guy has had them reproduced and charges a hydrous amount for a tiny piece of rubber.

 

Lets not forget the P car parts market is a global one.

[f3nr15]

Hmmm.

 

Like any other venture that requires a support base, a crowd funded project requires a valid value proposition for the investors.

 

A reasonable prospect of a return on investment is the quintessential value prop, but to think that is the whole story is to fall far short of the mark -

 

Successful ventures all begin with only one thing - belief.

 

Belief of your investors is a function of their perception of you (1. motivation, 2. innovation, 3. realisation); 4. the product; and 5. the value for themselves.

 

 

Case study 1 -

 

Hi all, I am Joe. My dad is a Porsche-phile, and has been so as long as I can remember. He finally bought a beat-up old 964 five years ago as a project car, but that got waylaid when mum died a month later, and dad needed to focus on raising the five of us. I'm now twenty and trying to put myself through an electrical apprenticeship. My siblings and I are now trying to repay dad by realising his dream for him. We've snuck the old 964 out of the shed and into the capable hands of Autohaus Hamilton, and put an old Corolla under the tarps in its place. I would like your help.

 

Applying the framework -

 

1. Motivation - altruistic, charitable. 1 point here.

2. Innovation - minimal, there are plenty of 911 builds out there. 0 Points.

3. Realisation - there's a high probability of the project being realised, it's already at Autohaus, they do good work. 1 point

 

4. Product - great product, a bespoke 911, who doesn't want one? 1 point

 

5. Meaning for the investor - would not benefit them in a personal sense, but by looking after Joe's dad, they are looking after their own dad (this is called 'transference'). 1 point.

 

So, 4-out-of-5 positive factors, likely to succeed.

 

 

Case study 2 -

 

Hi all, I am Chad. I believe that bespoke 911s like the ones built by Singer in the US are widely appealing for us Porsche-files, but due to economic conditions they are beyond our reach. I have planned to create a company that coordinates the design, engineering and production of small volume but extremely high quality components used to create such cars, using local manufacturers and expertise, at an incredibly cost effective pricepoint. Investors will have the opportunity of input into every stage of the component design, and then the opportunity to purchase the parts as part of the small volume runs. This will take the form a project build, and I would like your help.

 

Applying the framework -

 

1. Motivation - Self serving, but to build a service that fulfils a well defined need, so 1 point.

2. Innovation - To make bespoke and high quality componentry available to enthusiasts at a low price point, so 1 point

3. Realisation - It is doubtful that such high qual components could be produced at low volume AND cost effectively, so 0 points

 

4. Product - Componentry to create a bespoke 911, great! 1 point

 

5. Meaning for the investor - the ability to realise a Singer-like vehicle, or at the very least have access to some great parts, 1 point

 

So 4-out-of-5 again.

 

 

Your proposal, with all due respect -

 

1. Motivation - you already own two desirable 911s, and you'd like to create a third bespoke one, whereas most investors may never realise ownership of any of these cars. 0 points

2. Innovation - minimal, there are plenty of 911 builds out there. 0 points

3. Realisation - I assume you'd engage a builder like Autohaus to do the work, so likely to be successful. 1 point

 

4. Product - a bespoke 911, desirable. 1 point

 

5. Value for the investor - You would get a third awesome 911. They would get to see you enjoy a third awesome 911. 0 points.

 

So 2-out-of-5, not so likely to work out.

[clutch-monkey]

Shady has nailed it. Things like hard to find parts would be a good idea for this- everyone contributes for a 3d printer, and you bang out trim pieces etc at discounted price for members or something.

Hell, someone local starts making good quality carbon fibre and frp panels/doors etc and I'll be one of the first on board