924 944 race engine packages

[Paulm]

http://www.motorwerksracing.com/engine-packages. 

Here is accompany in the states looking to sell race engine kits to 924 944 owners .

 

[KBGr4]

Or you could just fit a 5 cylinder 20 valve Audi motor and be really quick !

[Airhead]

Or you could just fit a 5 cylinder 20 valve Audi motor and be really quick !

I'd like to see that done.

[Rob]

I'd like to see that done.

Well, have a look here then...

You may be some time reading it...

http://rennlist.com/forums/944-turbo-and-turbo-s-forum/803341-vw-audi-07k-2-5l-20v-i5-swap-thread.html

 

[Peter M]

So what is the smaller lighter motor that MWR is offering to fit to your 944?  Honda?

[a239947]

Im pretty sure its a 1.8L audi/VW motor. I believe it has a similar bolt pattern to the 931 bellhousing so wouldnt be too hard to develop a DIY kit for.

Its a pretty good idea but most 924 guys like me seem to be trying to do stuff on the cheap so I think it would be marketed more at the 944.

Besides, the 924 lump seems to take boost pretty well anyway.

I might even do a turbo setup one day from lowballed gumtree parts and drain pipe! Lol. 

This kit doesnt look cheap, hopefully they offer a conversion kit if you have access to your own 1.8

[Timm]

I think for the price of what one of those swaps would set you back, you could build a 3L 16V turbo and have just as much or more power and with a broader torque curve than a 1.8L.

[XLR8]

I think for the price of what one of those swaps would set you back, you could build a 3L 16V turbo and have just as much or more power and with a broader torque curve than a 1.8L.

Probably.

However, if you are stuck with a NA 924, you're limited to about 200hp (unless you want to change clutch and possibly torque tube and gearbox input shaft).

I suppose, if you're going as far as a big hp engine conversion on a 924, you'd be doing all that, and the brakes as well.

For a 944, a developed Porsche engine is still likely less expensive. Those 1.8T VW engine are easy to find (well, in the US and Europe at least).

They can be nicely mapped for super flat torque curve, which would be pretty nice. I'd think my 924 would be great with 180hp and bags of torque from 2000rpm. The chassis would be able to handle that. The brakes might need some fettling.

That said, has anyone confirmed the 1.8T is indeed what they are using?

 

 

[a239947]

A 1.8T shouldnt be too hard to find here as well. Lots of golfs and audis use them and there are plenty rotting away in backyards and wreckers. Could even pickup cheap runners on carsales and gumtree. 

I wouldnt be too worried about the strength of the 924 drivetrain. Yes the clutch is a weak point but nothing that cant be fixed with the right expertise. The 20mm imput shaft on the NA 924 although not as strong as the 944s 25mm it is still strong enough to hold plenty of power. 

The 924 board has a few guys that have squeezed 400hp out the old 2L without any internal mods and running e85, the drivetrain was never an issue.

i believe some have found the old fox mustang clutch disc to fit the 924, there are plenty of stronger options for them in the U.S.

 

[Paulm]

If you go to Instagram and search thenickwatkins. He is the lead race man building these from what I can see also has some video with some specs. Yes they are Audi 1.8 from what I believe. Gives people the option to buy a cheap 924 and do some serious racing. Internals can be items like JE pistons etc with options to upgrade off the shelf parts depending on your budget.

[Buchanan Automotive]

For the 951 , the old American "automotive " saying sums it up well } There is no replacement for cubic displacement & this is very true in regards the the already quite large capacity 2.5L 8 V  engine & a whole lot more with the 3.0L 16 Valve  & 3.0L 8 Valve 951 engine's Sean has built , the extra 500CC gives a massive increase to the low down ( off boost ) Torque " Pulling Power " out of corners & just general driving on the street & track 

A  1.8 Litre is by nature a backward step as compared to a 2.5 and very wanting compared to the large 3.0L engines ( not even in the same ball park )in low RPM torque & drivability & you get to retain the excellent 951 engine ( which a whole lot better than some VW/ Audi unit that looks non Porsche )

Staying with the 2.5L 8 Valve 951 engine for the moment, we have installed a lot of our stage 1 kits which increases the HP + drivability & lowered the RPM Turbo spool up point of the standard small turbo dramatically when considering we are only changing relatively a modest range of components }

Vitesse performance chip ( latest one )
Lindsey Reacing dual port waste gate or similar
Turbo Smart BOV ( plumb back )
3.0 bar fuel reg
Manual boost control ( not electronic as these are hopeless )
Rotary valve delete and compete clean up of some of the now out of date under manifold vacuum plumbing
Bosch 4 pintle electronic fuel injectors ( a type only we use in this stage 1 )

The above will make a reduction of spool up time & RPM of the turbo very notable & takes the 220HP & 250HP 2.5 951 to between 310HP to 330HP ( depending on boost levels ) 
Note 1 } we do not usually go beyond 1.4Bar boost pressure , quite modest boost for the performance 
Note 2 } The above is only done if the conrod bearings ( 30 year old bearings) are in excellent condition & not worn from using a low oil viscosity oil in the past 

Then if we install a Vitesse Luft Hotwire air mass meter & the associated electronics to make it happen & this also gets rid of the restrictive air box , you can add an extra 20HP or more and even better drivability , it makes them a very exiting car to drive & makes the old standard one almost un-driveable by comparison 

----------------------

Then we go to the stage 3 Vitesse kit ( we are doing one right now at work ) , this has a larger newer style turbo , different injectors , piggy back system & the left hot-wire airmass etc & depending on boost around 380 - 400 + HP on 98 premium ( add extra 60 HP if E85 used ) & not over 1.5 bar boost to give longevity

-------------------------

Then we go to the GT3 beating 3.0L 16V ( Vitesse stage V Turbo) twin cam engines ( E 85 fuel ) and 590 - 630 HP with very little internal engine changes , meaning we take a 944S2 or 968 engine & we install custom Wossner pistons and very good quality aftermarket con-rods , we do not change anything else within the engine , standard crank , standard sump & baffle , standard head & cams ( no change to porting at all ) not even the valves are changed or the valve springs , all standard 944S2 / 968 , custom manifolds , standard 951 X under pipe 

Same goes for the 8 V  3.0L 951 engine's Sean builds ,  similar HP to above to 5,000RPM , but even slightly better torque at low off boost RPM , but there is a noticeable difference between the 16V to the 8 V from between 5,000RPM to 6,500 RPM , meaning the 16V twin cam engine breaths a tad better the higher the RPM 

I have lost count how many Motorkhana & Drivers Championships Sean has won in the PCNSW with his ( earlier 2.5L 951 ) and later 3.0L 16V E85 GT3 eating monster & its eligible to compete in these classes/ competitions because it has a Porsche engine 

Same goes for a lot of events ( Targa etc ) where the car entered must have the engine that the car came with ( not from another maker ) unless you want to end up in a class that will be very disadvantageous 

-------------------------

Now to the 924 , personally I would concentrate on the 931 & develop that , so its eligible for competition & it has the 5 stud wheels ( not 4 ) so it can be upgraded with later 951 brakes on the front & rear , the standard 924 rear drums are fine for road but deadly on the track 

I actually like the 931 engine & it has a huge scope for development & turbo repositioning & custom ignition & fuel injection( get rid of the K-Jet ) & I bet this can be done with less money than trying to install a 2nd hand 1.8L VW engine ( which has to be stripped and rebuilt with better parts anyway )

Regards

Bruce Buchanan
Buchanan Automotive

 

Edited 17May, 2016 by Buchanan Automotive
add content

[a239947]

Maybe this is more aimed as an alternative to those who are thinking of an LS swap. And performance parts for the 1.8T are in abundance in the U.S. i have seen a couple of these swap over the interwebs. 

But it still seems an LS swap would still be cheaper.

like you say though, if your racing it does not seem advantageous to swap out the original engine. I guess things are different in the U.S

[XLR8]

Yes Bruce, I'd prefer to "keep it in the family"and I'm sure a 931/2 engine (or car) would do the trick for me. However, I've never had the pleasure of driving one.

The 924 is a little "hobbled" with the in-built restrictions to cost effective mods - 4 stud, drums, crossmember limiting engine choice, etc. But it still remains a nimble driver's car. It just won't win any drag races.

I tend to agree, the 944 variants/engines seem a far better choice if you're chasing horsepower. I am amazed at what you guys are building down there. I must stop by one day.

All of this is academic for me (and dreaming!). I am happy to keep my little '24 as standard as I can. I'll save up for the 951.

[michel]

On 16/05/2016 at 21:11, Buchanan Automotive said:

For the 951 , the old American "automotive " saying sums it up well } There is no replacement for cubic displacement & this is very true in regards the the already quite large capacity 2.5L 8 V  engine & a whole lot more with the 3.0L 16 Valve  & 3.0L 8 Valve 951 engine's Sean has built , the extra 500CC gives a massive increase to the low down ( off boost ) Torque " Pulling Power " out of corners & just general driving on the street & track 

A  1.8 Litre is by nature a backward step as compared to a 2.5 and very wanting compared to the large 3.0L engines ( not even in the same ball park )in low RPM torque & drivability & you get to retain the excellent 951 engine ( which a whole lot better than some VW/ Audi unit that looks non Porsche )

Staying with the 2.5L 8 Valve 951 engine for the moment, we have installed a lot of our stage 1 kits which increases the HP + drivability & lowered the RPM Turbo spool up point of the standard small turbo dramatically when considering we are only changing relatively a modest range of components }

Vitesse performance chip ( latest one )
Lindsey Reacing dual port waste gate or similar
Turbo Smart BOV ( plumb back )
3.0 bar fuel reg
Manual boost control ( not electronic as these are hopeless )
Rotary valve delete and compete clean up of some of the now out of date under manifold vacuum plumbing
Bosch 4 pintle electronic fuel injectors ( a type only we use in this stage 1 )

The above will make a reduction of spool up time & RPM of the turbo very notable & takes the 220HP & 250HP 2.5 951 to between 310HP to 330HP ( depending on boost levels ) 
Note 1 } we do not usually go beyond 1.4Bar boost pressure , quite modest boost for the performance 
Note 2 } The above is only done if the conrod bearings ( 30 year old bearings) are in excellent condition & not worn from using a low oil viscosity oil in the past 

Then if we install a Vitesse Luft Hotwire air mass meter & the associated electronics to make it happen & this also gets rid of the restrictive air box , you can add an extra 20HP or more and even better drivability , it makes them a very exiting car to drive & makes the old standard one almost un-driveable by comparison 

----------------------

Then we go to the stage 3 Vitesse kit ( we are doing one right now at work ) , this has a larger newer style turbo , different injectors , piggy back system & the left hot-wire airmass etc & depending on boost around 380 - 400 + HP on 98 premium ( add extra 60 HP if E85 used ) & not over 1.5 bar boost to give longevity

-------------------------

Then we go to the GT3 beating 3.0L 16V ( Vitesse stage V Turbo) twin cam engines ( E 85 fuel ) and 590 - 630 HP with very little internal engine changes , meaning we take a 944S2 or 968 engine & we install custom Wossner pistons and very good quality aftermarket con-rods , we do not change anything else within the engine , standard crank , standard sump & baffle , standard head & cams ( no change to porting at all ) not even the valves are changed or the valve springs , all standard 944S2 / 968 , custom manifolds , standard 951 X under pipe 

Same goes for the 8 V  3.0L 951 engine's Sean builds ,  similar HP to above to 5,000RPM , but even slightly better torque at low off boost RPM , but there is a noticeable difference between the 16V to the 8 V from between 5,000RPM to 6,500 RPM , meaning the 16V twin cam engine breaths a tad better the higher the RPM 

I have lost count how many Motorkhana & Drivers Championships Sean has won in the PCNSW with his ( earlier 2.5L 951 ) and later 3.0L 16V E85 GT3 eating monster & its eligible to compete in these classes/ competitions because it has a Porsche engine 

Same goes for a lot of events ( Targa etc ) where the car entered must have the engine that the car came with ( not from another maker ) unless you want to end up in a class that will be very disadvantageous 

-------------------------

Now to the 924 , personally I would concentrate on the 931 & develop that , so its eligible for competition & it has the 5 stud wheels ( not 4 ) so it can be upgraded with later 951 brakes on the front & rear , the standard 924 rear drums are fine for road but deadly on the track 

I actually like the 931 engine & it has a huge scope for development & turbo repositioning & custom ignition & fuel injection( get rid of the K-Jet ) & I bet this can be done with less money than trying to install a 2nd hand 1.8L VW engine ( which has to be stripped and rebuilt with better parts anyway )

Regards

Bruce Buchanan
Buchanan Automotive

 

Hi Bruce ,,

ive acquired a 931 as a parts car  to install all parts across into a CGT rep project. though the 931 now I’ve seen it is too nice to wreck.. I know,  I’m like you a  sentimental fool . 

 

Perhaps I should be installing a CGT kit on the 931 ??????? 
 

So now, I’m interested to know what we could do with a rebuild of the 931 donk including the above required mods - turbo reposition , new manifold headers , EWUR/CIS  or EFI etc etc 

this something you’d still consider or ?

Suspect I’ll be calling you 

cheers 

[michel]

I got an answer .. something about preferring a case of non treatable *#%@#*!!!