944 sale price

[TINGY]

First thing i got asked from most people when i was selling was, is it Aus delivered and a matching numbers engine.

This matching No's debate has come and gone on this forum for a long time now.

If a 944 had an engine that was 4 numbers out from thè originally delivered engine and had done 180k less kms i don't think i would be too bothered, think I'd be a winner actually.

If the engine is from the same series but a few numbers out does it really matter to the run of the mill car or just a highly desirable model, let's face it, most cars are not "matching No's" are they.

[Dreamr]

 

As Tingy has quite rightly said .... this debate has come and gone .... but it will always be there, lurking ....

 

I completely understand that a lot of you wouldn't give a crap if any of the cars had matching numbers .... but I find it a bit naive that some of you don't think it affects the value .. I can tell you it does ..... the fact is that "most" buyers would expect the price to be lower .... it has nothing to do with whether you would buy it or not ....

 

I also ask is it matching numbers and Australian delivered .... those criteria are purely my own.

[brian in buddina]

hypothetically:

say you had a 1989 turbo S, silverrose.Good or better condition. what it worth here today?

We know what has happened to the price of regular 1986 turbos in the last 6 months to a year.

Now the white 1987 turbo left hooker still for sale, is this a true relection of its value? no one wants it.

what is 1989 turbo S, silverrose, left hooker worth? not much, no one wants a left hooker in oz.

 

[Rob]

To some, there is a LHD "cachet" involved with A/C 911s.  Not so for 944s, where the question is "WTF did you buy a LHD one?"  There's no advantage in a LHD 944 over a RHD, as they don't suffer from the distorted driving position that a RHD A/C 911 does, leaving only the disadvantages of a LHD car in RHD Australia.  So the market makes its position known.

[brian in buddina]

rhd✔️

[TINGY]

hypothetically:

say you had a 1989 turbo S, silverrose.Good or better condition. what it worth here today?

We know what has happened to the price of regular 1986 turbos in the last 6 months to a year.

Now the white 1987 turbo left hooker still for sale, is this a true relection of its value? no one wants it.

what is 1989 turbo S, silverrose, left hooker worth? not much, no one wants a left hooker in oz.

 

Brian the Turbo S Silverrose was only available in '88, the same spec was then available in '89 in other colors and with options, MO30 etc.

The grey 89 has just sold for $49k ish?

This is where the market is at for this particular car i guess, it doesn't mean every other Turbo S spec car is worth the same money.

I think the left hooker is worth the money but who wants some of the hassles that come with a left hand drive car.

[Plugger2]

Does a collector have to collect collectable cars or can they just be someone who collects cars that have some meaning to them.

If the car's value is only in the special meaning it has for that person, then the car isn't collectible in the ordinary sense that there is a collectors market for it.

[TINGY]

If the cars value is only in the special meaning it has for that person, then the car isn't collectible in the ordinary sense that there is a collectors market for it.

 

 

I had to read that a couple of times, yep.

[Dreamr]

If the car's value is only in the special meaning it has for that person, then the car isn't collectible in the ordinary sense that there is a collectors market for it.

I believe that pretty much any classic Porsche is now a "collectable" car due to the extremely low numbers left and the high demand .... waaaay more people want them than are left.

That doesn't mean that the owners are collectors .... it just means that they appreciate the things of old ..... I don't consider my self a collector and I have a couple of them .... more of an appreciator and preserver ....

[Plugger2]

but I find it a bit naive that some of you don't think it affects the value .. I can tell you it does ..... the fact is that "most" buyers would expect the price to be lower .... it has nothing to do with whether you would buy it or not ....

I still don't believe it has hit the front engined market in any significant way yet, unlike the aircooled market. Many potential buyers may ask the question "matching numbers?", but that doesn't necessarily affect the sales price. (Remember, it is the guy who is most interested in the car that is the one that actually determines the sale price and therefore the market value, the tyre-kickers and chancers don't count). It does affect the sales price when _all_ potential buyers are asking the question (and actually care about the answer, as opposed to, say, just trying it on for a car they've already decided to buy at the asking price if they can't get it any cheaper.) But I don't think we're there yet.

I've never been asked "matching numbers?" for any car I've sold (but admittedly it's been a few years now since I've sold one.) If I was to get asked the question today, I'd politely ask "why do you think that matters for this car?" just to hear an undoubtedly fascinating response, while trying to keep a straight face.

But if this "matching numbers" meme eventually infects the whole front-engined market, the way it seems to have in the aircooled market, then the market will be what the market will be. Markets can certainly go off the rails and become irrational for extended periods (a speculative bubble being the obvious example), but they inevitably self-correct in time. Keep an eye on the fundamentals though, and you won't go too far wrong. Unless the vehicle really is collector grade, the fundamentals simply do not support "matching numbers", and that would be true for the vast majority of the cars selling today. OTOH, the fundamentals do support a well-maintained, Oz-delivered car with a good service history and clear title. Follow those principles, and you will be largely insulated from any temporary fads and general silliness infecting the market.

Oh, and just for fun -- Here's an interesting S2 cab that's just hit the market:

https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/_/SSE-AD-4640773?WT.seg_4=AutoAlert;PCAA

But -- oh no! -- "This very special 1990 Porsche 944 has had the renown 2.5 litre Turbo engine fitted by Peter Fitzgerald."

Tsk, tsk. Non-matching numbers for sure. Now who'd want a Fitzy-built turbo when the numbers surely don't match? Surely a matching numbers engine -- even if tired -- would be far preferable,

LOL!

 

[MB911]

 

 

If the car's value is only in the special meaning it has for that person, then the car isn't collectible in the ordinary sense that there is a collectors market for it.

I didn't actually say "the car is collectible in the ordinary sense (how did you define this ordinary sense you speak of?) that there is a collectors market for it" because there doesn't have to be a market at all, you could collect Hyundai Excels if you wanted to and still be a collector. I wrote my response to your statement "A collector is someone who collects collectible cars". To be a collector you don't necessarily have to collect something that there is a market for, the person that does that can also be a merchant or second hand seller. I said people collect cars for many reason,the meaning may be the cars value or rare status or it may just be that they give them some pleasure. 

Edited 26March, 2017 by MB911

[Plugger2]

To be a collector you don't necessarily have to collect something that there is a market for

That's the "ordinary sense" when people talk about e.g., collectible cars.

If you want to define it differently, fine, but then this becomes irrelevant when discussing why some people believe "matching numbers" is important regarding market values.

[MB911]

I'm pretty sure I've never mentioned matching numbers? I think you are getting your posts confused there Plugger?? My comment was a simple one about the definition of what a collector is. You guys can fight out the matching numbers stuff in my absense I have no interest in that debate  

[Dreamr]

You guys can fight out the matching numbers stuff in my absense I have no interest in that debate  

C'mon mate ..... when the going gets tough, the tough get going!!

Don't leave now ..... 

[michel]

Just put my Jammies on  filled the popcorn and flopped in the Jason ...ahhh

[Kelly]

Matching numbers might be good for accountants, I just like it when they drive well with whatever collection of parts and numbers they have.

[TINGY]

https://www.thoughtco.com/what-is-numbers-matching-classic-car-726148

[Niko]

For anyone interested in a 944... I had a look at this one on Saturday for another forum member interstate.

That member has decided to look for a later model 944.

I took it for a drive, had a good visual look at it.   Seems like a very authentic car.  

The seller even put it up on the hoist for me for an undercarriage inspection.

Now I am definitely no expert on these cars...in fact it is the first 944 I have driven.

It drove well, got it into a 100 k zone and hands off the wheel and it was as straight as a die.

Body has had a couple of touch ups over the years, and has a few painted stone chips on the front bar area.

Motor sounded strong.    Gears were nice.   Clutch appeared good.  Interior good.

Car was dead cold when I had a look at it.   was a bit rough on idle but once on operating temp, went beautifully.

Lots of paperwork history including the purchase etc.

It certainly needs a couple of things, it has what we think is a slight leaking rocker cover gasket,

Front discs and pads need replacing, and it needs a new screen.   The passenger sunvisor has a broken clip in section.

The seller, (Jim) who appears to be very genuine and a good bloke will probably come to the party with some of that stuff if not all.

I'm only putting this up because I think it is a good car.  

If I was in the market for a 944 that is nice and original I would be pretty serious about this one.

Definitely would need a PPI before purchase though.   He does have a couple sniffing around at the moment on it.

I am getting absolutely bugger all for putting this out there,  and I hadn't met Jim until last Saturday morning.

I would just like to see it go to a forum member. 

https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Porsche-944-1984/SSE-AD-4624466/?Cr=4

Edited 26March, 2017 by Niko

[MB911]

This thing is dropping $1000 a week, what will the end price be, place your bets gentlemen....

 

https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Porsche-944-1986/SSE-AD-4596667/?Cr=1

[Stepo]

Love the last line .....

"Will consider selling for this price" ..... 

Took the black S2 for its second drive today, getting to know her in the miserable Melb rain.

Re your comment Dreamr; it made me laugh re-reading as the seller did need to consider.  I offered the asking price with no changes and got told he wanted to think about it (this is a car listed on Carsales).  I had to wait 24hrs before having the seller agree to the deal .

[brian in buddina]

This thing is dropping $1000 a week, what will the end price be, place your bets gentlemen....

 

https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Porsche-944-1986/SSE-AD-4596667/?Cr=1

has anyone looked at this car?

[Rob]

Just looking at the pics of that ^ car and noting it is an "early offset" model (ET 23mm) and that it has D90s which have an offset of ~55mm from memory, it appears to me that the wheels are inboard of their correct position, needing spacers to rectify.  Or are my eyes deceiving me?

[Port 911]

Good spotting, If you look at photo's of Tingy944's car, same wheels but they sit out way further or where they should.

So the wheels are not right what else it not right?

All may not be as it seems. 

[Plugger2]

Just looking at the pics of that ^ car and noting it is an "early offset" model (ET 23mm) and that it has D90s which have an offset of ~55mm from memory, it appears to me that the wheels are inboard of their correct position, needing spacers to rectify.  Or are my eyes deceiving me?

They could also be 16x7" & 16x9" 944 TurboS ClubSport wheels (standard on the late Turbos -- I expect that's what Tingy has). Although these are similar to the D90s, they're forged and about 1.5-lbs lighter (according to the interwebs).

But offset issues would be the same. Definitely not original wheels (although not in itself a big issue). A nice set of Fuchs would be ideal if you had the 86, since they wont fit properly on cars later than that. (About the only downside to having a later car is that Fuchs wont fit, imho.)

 

BTW, on a completely different topic -- anyone with an Oz-delivered car but with split rear seats, check for option code

M685 REAR SEATS, DIVIDED

I found this in a list of S2 options (original source was Jim Pasha, apparently.)

http://www.connact.com/~kgross/FAQ/944faq944S2optioncodes.html

Edited 10April, 2017 by Plugger2

[TINGY]

They could also be 16x7" & 16x9" 944 TurboS ClubSport wheels (standard on the late Turbos -- I expect that's what Tingy has). Although these are similar to the D90s, they're forged and about 1.5-lbs lighter (according to the interwebs).

But offset issues would be the same. Definitely not original wheels (although not in itself a big issue). A nice set of Fuchs would be ideal if you had the 86, since they wont fit properly on cars later than that. (About the only downside to having a later car is that Fuchs wont fit, imho.)

Correct Plugger although the fronts are 7.5", i'm not nit picking, just saying that's what they are.

I would love a set of Fuchs on my turbo

Just looking at the pics of that ^ car and noting it is an "early offset" model (ET 23mm) and that it has D90s which have an offset of ~55mm from memory, it appears to me that the wheels are inboard of their correct position, needing spacers to rectify.  Or are my eyes deceiving me?

Some 86 cars had the late off-set i believe, i'm thinking these would be very late 86 cars, someone correct me if i'm wrong.

Didn't all turbo's have the late off-set?