944 S2 General Questions

[Jason E]

It's good to see that your 944 is the same as every other one around this place, welcome to the club.

My clock is fine Jason and is easy to read from everywhere in the car, do the kit, it's got to be worth it i reckon.

Oh shit here we go.

OK I am on the net now looking at ordering a clutch kit & peripherals so I will order the clock kit as well & see if it works- thanks Tingy.  Was telling Rob today I ordered some Koni yellow suspension from the UK yesterday for a very good price- shipping included- can't wait for it to turn up.  Also installed a bunch of interior trim pieces today to replace a bunch of broken or worn out stuff- car looks pretty flash now.  I am the flashest Rat in my street now.

Finally & before I go Tingy it is my understanding that Porsches Marine Blue 944 interior is the very pinnacle of 80's refinement.  The only thing to top it out for 80's excess would be a full Velour interior in cream with purple trim stiching plus an 80's power suit & suspenders....just sayin'.........

[Plugger2]

Plugger  ( I have No idea at all what you're name is ) , can you give me a list of front engined registered road cars that you know that have the same "small " rear brake callipers on the front as well on the rear "On The Same Car " , meaning  cars that have the same sized brake caliper & same sized brake pads Front & Rear ?

I can not think of another front engined car( any make ) with the same sized brake callipers & exact same brake pads front & rear , there must be something , but maybe you would know 

By the way , the reply you gave above, I found that quite offensive , how dare you mention about my wife in that vein , I its quite obvious you have no answers to just about anything Porsche , it stands out a mile 

Like all internet cowards( bullies ) you turned it personal ( bad mistake )& the reason you resorted to personal is because you have no idea of the technicalities you are trying to purvey  & this personal attack is all you can do 

I will expect an apology 

Bruce, I am sorry that you took the comments about your wife driving a Hyundai as offensive -- I tried to indicate that I was not having a gratuitous poke at you, it's just that I would not let anyone *I* cared about drive a Hyundai -- and I'm completely serious about that. As I said, I've seen what happens to them in prang, and I'm not impressed. But that's by and by, please accept my apology, let's leave it that, and talk about Porsches instead.

As for my questioning your opinion of the S2 brakes, and stopping power, and your suggestion that you have to upgrade to the S4 brakes just to be safe -- well, frankly, I do find that to be just ludicrous hyperbole. The S4 brakes were, of course, designed for the larger and more powerful 928S4. The 928S4 weighs 1590kg and produces 316bhp, the 944S2 weighs 1340kg and produces 208bhp. Think about that for a moment. I think suggesting that you "need" the S4 brakes on the lighter, less powerful S2 "just to be safe" is something of stretch, wouldn't you say? Unless all the 928S4 are also chronically under-braked, of course (feel free to put forth your opinion about this too, if you want, and then we can get the 928 owners in on this too.)

In any case, the proof is in the pudding. You say you feel unsafe driving a S2 with standard brakes and feel you are in danger of running up the back of people in daily traffic. Well fine, I'll take your word for it, but you might want to consider that I have never felt at all unsafe with the brakes on the S2 in any situation. On the occasions when I've had to stop suddenly, in both wet and dry conditions, they performed superbly, and exactly as expected.

So that's two opinions -- yours and mine. Although you are the only person I've ever heard say the S2 was under-braked, I will take a survey of people who use the standard braking set-up on the track, and see what they say. These are people who don't mind spending the money for performance upgrades for their cars, and I doubt very much would be flogging their cars around the track with brakes that feel inadequate for daily driving on the street(!). That will give us a few more opinions to consider. More opinions the merrier, yes?

Finally, I'm not sure why you think it is a big deal that the brake pads on the S2 are the same size front and rear. In any case, you aren't even correct; the *pads* are the same size front and rear, but the *calipers* on the front are larger (piston sizes 28 and 30mm on the rears vs 36 and 40mm on the front.) For whatever reasons the Porsche engineers designed it this way, the set-up works very well, and is very balanced, and that's all that matters (at least to me, and I suspect most other drivers). I'm also sorry if you feel bullied; that was not my intention. I try to show at least a minimum level of respect people with different opinions to mine when participating on Internet forums, even if I feel their opinions are completely unsustainable. But I do reserve the right to disagree, sometimes with a bit of edge and humour. This is the Internet after all.

[Buchanan Automotive]

What is you're name PLUGGER , or is that a secret ?   , I bet it is 

[Buchanan Automotive]

I might chime in here and give an opinion on brakes on the early turbo's, S2's stock and upgrades. This is coming from a racer, I have won 4 Porsche Club drivers championships , 1 sprint and 6 Motokhana Championships, lap records here and there so i think this gives me a little idea what works well, i also do tuition for people looking for help at open days and during our PCNSW track days. I have tried all options available to us to make these cars go, corner and stop.

 

In reference to stock brakes on the early cars, even with the stock Durid pad, personally its a little underwhelming. Bit of a long travel (this can differ between cars) and a feeling of sponginess as you apply the pedal. In hard stopping , say doing a brake test, they tend to lock up the rears first. Now taking these to the track, which we have done(and is a little off topic for this thread) its completely uninspiring, soft mushy pedal when pushing the car within the later stages of the first lap. Thats 1 lap. Within the next lap the front become ineffective and the rears lock, hope you have an LSD for a bit of control back there or the car will rotate like a 911 going in too deep. Upgrading to a dedicated track pad will help here for sure, Pagid blues or blacks RS14 or even Project MU H16's will help deter the sponginess for another lap.

 

When putting on the S4 brakes on the cars its firms up the pedal and gives you an instant feeling of security, for a better word. The car feels straight away like its going to brake and they do. the travel is reduced significantly and during hard stopping we now for the first time have more bite on the front then the back. Which is great because braking hard with the original 4 pots during a corner cause rotation, This is bad. Track wise we will get 2- 3 laps of good braking with the stock Durids before fade sets in, Balance is better, you can go deeper into corners and have more confidence to push the cars harder. Add some Race Pads, as before Pagids RS14 ect and we now have a sprint car on our hands. We can get 7-10 Laps without fade. which is a great little setup for sprints. PCNSW usually holds holds 6 lap dashes. 

 

My personal favourite for a bit of everything is the Big Reds or Big Blacks, Reds found on the 993TT and Blacks on the 928 GTS, these use the 320mm disc. These feel the same as the S4 calipers on the road with a road pad. Firm pedal that just won't falter. for any road use. The down side is that they cost a bit more then the S4 calipers and so do the discs, Both the S4 and Big Reds use the same caliper adapter. The adapters are sold by Racers edge/ Lindsey racing and they have sold thousands of sets, just goes to show how popular these upgrades are. Track use i have only ever used track pads with them. They perform like the S4s but last even longer before any fade or pedal drop comes in. Usually we can get 14-16 laps. Im talking hard driving, pushing the car. Both the S4 and GTS brakes with track pads give you the chance to brake with the same force as the latest GT3, in our case we can out brake them. I will post up some incar videos.

 

The next and absolute in braking is custom Alcon 6 pot with floating 375mm rotors, We have done this on a few cars now, minimum 18inch wheels is necessary. Its costs a bomb, calipers are $1800 each. Awesome is an understatement, these go deeper then any GT3 or Cup we have raced against. 

 

So in recap my personal preference for a road car would be S4's, Road car with an occasional track day S4's, Road car with longer sessions on the track GTS or Big Reds. Track car Alcons. For anyone that thinks that the initial 4 pots are adequate really need to jump in a car with the next step up, the S4's. The impression is instant. We currently setup and support about 14 944's turbos and NA's, even 2 Targa Tasmania entries.

Here is a session from Wakefield, i get a few clean laps then come up behind a Cup and GT3

Regards

Sean

 

 

 

 

[Stepo]

It's all coming together now...........I know his name

Time to move on, can anyone recommend a new shift boot for Jason or a source for my rocker switches ?

[Stepo]

 

When putting on the S4 brakes on the cars its firms up the pedal and gives you an instant feeling of security, for a better word. The car feels straight away like its going to brake and they do. the travel is reduced significantly and during hard stopping we now for the first time have more bite on the front then the back.

 

Your car is crazy Sean, no doubt the benefits of being a mechanic, having a workshop, access to parts and knowing them back to front.

For interest, what is the estimated cost to move from standard front brakes to S4?

 

 

[Rob]

Nice one Sean, must be very embarrassing for the "proper" high $$ to be reeled in and passed by a "not a real Porsche".  Agree with your comment re early 944T brakes, from personal experience.  When I had my '86, with hard pads, I did a training day at Morgan Park with Fitzy.  He jumped into my car to show me some lines, coming into Turn 4 (Gumtree), Fitzy hit the brakes and exclaimed "these brakes are SH1T!".  'Nuff said!

[Buchanan Automotive]

 

Your car is crazy Sean, no doubt the benefits of being a mechanic, having a workshop, access to parts and knowing them back to front.

For interest, what is the estimated cost to move from standard front brakes to S4?

 

 

There has been a lot of trial and error along the way too, some things work well and some things dont. But once you get the formula for a reliable quick car it becomes a lot of fun.

Cost wise, usually its best to find a used set of 944turbo/S2M030 calipers or 928 S4 calipers. Found a set on eBay USA http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-944-S2-Turbo-928-S4-968-M030-OEM-Front-Brake-Calipers-Left-and-Right-/282343815515?hash=item41bd00b95b:g:BXEAAOSwUKxYZCic&vxp=mtr

They are getting up in cost these days because everyone is snapping them up. (brand new is $1125us, if you were to buy new i would go the GTS/993turbo they are about $943us for GTS and $912us for 993TT )

You will also need adapters, you can get them here at racers edge

http://www.racersedge-inc.com/racersedge/rehome.nsf/0/1425808F8F1AE9CB8525718F0063226F?open&id=1.2.1

next up is rotors, Use Sebro rotors from BWA. We find BWA the cheapest for these discs. 

You will most likely change the brake lines as the S4's and GTS use a banjo rather then a screw in fitting.

and finally brake pads, there is a selection to choose from ranging from Hawk street all the way up to Pagids or Project Mu for the track

 

 

 

Nice one Sean, must be very embarrassing for the "proper" high $$ to be reeled in and passed by a "not a real Porsche".  Agree with your comment re early 944T brakes, from personal experience.  When I had my '86, with hard pads, I did a training day at Morgan Park with Fitzy.  He jumped into my car to show me some lines, coming into Turn 4 (Gumtree), Fitzy hit the brakes and exclaimed "these brakes are SH1T!".  'Nuff said!

Taking any cars on the track shows their weakness. We have been there and done that. That would have been a lot of fun having Fitzy in the car for a few laps. Always makes me smile when  get out of cars and the owner says, what do i do again? They are usually having too much fun and dont quite take it all in.

Sean

[ANF]

Time to move on, can anyone recommend a new shift boot for Jason or a source for my rocker switches ?

I know you can buy new stickers for 928 rocker switches, the 944 ones look similar? Or you can still buy the sunroof one (maybe others) new - about $A100 + freight.... (US)

The 928 manual shifter is very similar, maybe someone like Paul Champagne can make one... http://www.designpaulchampagne.com/928Shifter.html

[AU924CGT]

Sorry to hear about the extent of the power steering issue . We discussed this from outset, and to my understanding this was not a bid deal.

Furthermore, when I delivered the car to the workshop for the PPI. I requested a quotation to resolve, but they failed to get back to me. By that time you were satisfied with the overall report, and did not follow up.

 

 

[Timm]

I'd like to give my 2c on the 944 brake discussion. While I have no where near the wealth of experience of the Buchanans, I do track my '86 951 semi regularly, and for now I still have the stock front brakes. They are ok and get the job done, but I agree with Bruce and Sean, the front pad area is just woefully undersized. One of my next upgrades will definitely be the 'medium' 928 s4 brembos, or hopefully a set of GTS big blacks if I can afford them.

The first couple track days I boiled the fluid every time, but now that I'm running Castrol SRF they hold up very well. I can't recommend SRF enough, it's actually good enough to leave in for a couple track days (maybe even a whole season) so despite being a very expensive initial outlay, the fact that you don't need to bleed brakes before and after every track day means it's about the same cost as cheaper brake fluid in the long run.

Also, I'm running Project Mu HC800 pads up front, and QFM A1RM in the back. I did have the QFM's all round to begin with, but they are a pretty shit pad, so now they are just in the back so that the back doesn't lock up before the front. The HC800's are awesome though, perform quite well on track, but still work from cold so aren't dangerous on the street like a dedicated track pad.

Here's an interesting little comparison I made of the small 951/944 S2 pads (green), the 928 S4 pads (red) and the big 928 GTS pads (yellow). You can see that even with just the 928 S4 brakes you gain probably close to a 3rd in pad area, and the GTS pads are almost double the area of the small non m030 pads, as well as having a 2cm larger rotor for increased leverage.

 

[Stepo]

Sorry to hear about the extent of the power steering issue . We discussed this from outset, and to my understanding this was not a bid deal.

Furthermore, when I delivered the car to the workshop for the PPI. I requested a quotation to resolve, but they failed to get back to me. By that time you were satisfied with the overall report, and did not follow up.

 

 

You know how I feel about the PPI Paul, glad the compression test was positive but feedback on other areas had much room for improvement. I specifically asked about the power steering leak more than once and was told it was minimal, turned out to be far from it as the oil is leaking at a rapid rate. No way it would pass a Vic RWC and so easy to identify the extent of the issue when the boot rack was exposed.

Lesson learnt, maybe the fact it isn't a "Real Porsche" in the eyes of some impacted the level of service and feedback I received .

[Carrot01]

I used to drive my stock braked 9442 around Perth's Wanneroo raceway - which is notorious for being very hard on brakes & I found them to be excellent. I beat 944 turbo se's & 930's in porsche club sprint days with that pretty much standard car.

[Jason E]

You know how I feel about the PPI Paul, glad the compression test was positive but feedback on other areas had much room for improvement. I specifically asked about the power steering leak more than once and was told it was minimal, turned out to be far from it as the oil is leaking at a rapid rate. No way it would pass a Vic RWC and so easy to identify the extent of the issue when the boot rack was exposed.

Lesson learnt, maybe the fact it isn't a "Real Porsche" in the eyes of some impacted the level of service and feedback I received ?.

I'd be asking for a refund of the cost of the PPI if they failed to pick up a specific point that you inquired about.   And if I got an unsatisfactory response I would give them a bit of a beating on social media.  Give them a crappy Google/ Facebook review.  Slam them on the applicable Porsche Forums etc.  Won't make any difference probably but I am a bit vindictive when I feel like my money has been wasted.  And further they have cost you money as you have to pay for the repairs that you weren't able to negotiate for in the purchase price.  Blast those Pirates me hearty with a full broadside. (Not sure why but a Piratical analogy seemed appropriate).    

[Stepo]

I used to drive my stock braked 9442 around Perth's Wanneroo raceway - which is notorious for being very hard on brakes & I found them to be excellent. I beat 944 turbo se's & 930's in porsche club sprint days with that pretty much standard car.

Hey Carrot, your post is inspiring.................beating 944 and air cooled turbos in an S2, brilliant! 

Maybe your standard brakes held up well cause you didn't have time to use them.  Does Wanneroo have lots of tight turns and no straights for the turbos to blast through?

I'd be asking for a refund of the cost of the PPI if they failed to pick up a specific point that you inquired about.   And if I got an unsatisfactory response I would give them a bit of a beating on social media.  Give them a crappy Google/ Facebook review.  Slam them on the applicable Porsche Forums etc.  Won't make any difference probably but I am a bit vindictive when I feel like my money has been wasted.  And further they have cost you money as you have to pay for the repairs that you weren't able to negotiate for in the purchase price.  Blast those Pirates me hearty with a full broadside. (Not sure why but a Piratical analogy seemed appropriate).    

It's a good point Jason, but one I expect to be futile.  I'm not going to mention who did the PPI or can them out in the open, they have their reasons for providing poor service, probably focusing on regular customers and higher dollar value returns rather than $650 PPIs.  My Interstate purchase didn't give me much time to second guess the experts or doubt the sellers representation.  I'm disappointed I didn't learn about the rack prior, but keeping my chin up and looking forward to getting her back from the workshop so I can get out there and drive.

[Buchanan Automotive]

Hi Timm , if you're 1986 951 with its small front brakes was just a road car ( no track time at all ) then the the next size up "Factory Fitted 951 Turbo S / Factory Option M030 944S2 / 928S4 "Medium" sized Brembo's would be fine , however you do go to the track & with the 951 being lower compression as compared to the NA 944S2/968 etc you have less engine braking then I would skip the Medium sized Brembo's & go straight to the Big Blacks / Big Reds 

As Sean has already mentioned ( Example only ) the Big Reds ( 993 Turbo ) are the least expensive to buy" new" as compared to new Big Blacks( 928GTS)  & the most expensive new ( these days ) are the much older style 928S4/951 Turbo S / 944S2 optional M030 larger brakes "Medium " sized Brembo caliper

Once you have something like the Big Reds / Big Blacks on the front & Pagid Black pads F & R , the first thing you will notice is you can pull up from "Ludicrous" speed ( phrase from Spaceballs movie I think ) with masses of confidence , this alone means you can go a lot deeper into the entry of corners ( on the track ) and wash off any speed you want in what feels like instantly , this not enhances confidence in the car at Ludicrous speed ,but you're lap times will come down & the fun factor goes up

The other nice thing about the larger front discs , be it the Medium 928S4 front discs  or the larger 928GTS front discs is they have larger brake discs cooling vanes but better still they are the "Curved " directional style , meaning the air is actively thrown out of the disc centre by rotational forces ( acts like a fan to draw air through )  & this must be fitted in the correct rotation direction

Where as the standard NON M030 944S2 thin / small front discs are just bog standard Radial / straight vanes & these are much smaller because the discs is thinner & these standard Non M030 944S2 discs can be fitted to spin in any direction ( very standard road car stuff )

Regards

Bruce Buchanan
Buchanan Automotive

[Carrot01]

Hey Carrot, your post is inspiring.................beating 944 and air cooled turbos in an S2, brilliant! 

Maybe your standard brakes held up well cause you didn't have time to use them.  Does Wanneroo have lots of tight turns and no straights for the turbos to blast through?

 

oh I used them alright! The circuit has 2 medium length straights, plenty of footage on youtube if you want to check out the circuit. It was a long time ago now, but I still have the results print out ;-)

[Plugger2]

What is you're name PLUGGER , or is that a secret ?   , I bet it is 

Call me Ishmael.

(Or, you can just call me Plugger like everyone else on the forum, lol.)

[Stepo]

Why is it storage in a 944 cockpit is so shitty?

Yes, you get a glovebox and slot under the stereo, but seriously.........you're lucky to hold anything bigger than pens in the centre console!

The G series cars give you that missing cupholder if your takeaway cup isn't too big, squeezes nicely in front of the handle and I haven't split a cup yet.  You even get a flip up section in the arm rest that is very handy storage.

I'm not sure what year there were changes, but it looks like earlier 944's had a little side pocket hole in the door card.  There's only mesh there in the S2, are there any known options to utilise the mesh area?

[TINGY]

Why is it storage in a 944 cockpit is so shitty?

Yes, you get a glovebox and slot under the stereo, but seriously.........you're lucky to hold anything bigger than pens in the centre console!

The G series cars give you that missing cupholder if your takeaway cup isn't too big, squeezes nicely in front of the handle and I haven't split a cup yet.  You even get a flip up section in the arm rest that is very handy storage.

I'm not sure what year there were changes, but it looks like earlier 944's had a little side pocket hole in the door card.  There's only mesh there in the S2, are there any known options to utilise the mesh area?

Come on maaaate!

It's for driving not sipping your skinny, de-caf, chai latte in, if you want to do that you need to stop at a cafe first.

[Dreamr]

Come on maaaate!

It's for driving not sipping your skinny, de-caf, chai latte in, if you want to do that you need to stop at a cafe first.

Seems to me that he's complaining about the lack of space for his roadies ..... 

We'll leave the chai lattes to you mate! .....

[TINGY]

Seems to me that he's complaining about the lack of space for his roadies ..... 

We'll leave the chai lattes to you mate! .....

No mate, Deano drinks the latte's, remember?

[Stepo]

I know I'm expecting too much, thought you guys were going to tell me about some secret pocket that sits behind the door card mesh, not to be.

Never say never, will post some pics when I come up with a solution.

[Dreamr]

I know I'm expecting too much, thought you guys were going to tell me about some secret pocket that sits behind the door card mesh, not to be.

Sorry to disappoint you mate, but after 267 posts, surely you would realise by now that it wasn't going to be as straight forward and as easy as that ..... 

[TINGY]

I know I'm expecting too much, thought you guys were going to tell me about some secret pocket that sits behind the door card mesh, not to be.

Never say never, will post some pics when I come up with a solution.

I don't know what you're expecting, it's just an old Porsche.