997.1 Manual Vs 997.2 Auto

[Slick]

Hi Guys,

I've been reading the forums for a while but this is my first post. Have finally decided to bite the bullet and fulfill a life long dream of owning a 911. I'm set on a 997 and given it wont be a daily driver I really want a 6 speed manual. Problem is I can find a 997.1 manual easy enough, but a 997.2 manual seems to be very rare. I really dont know whether to go for a gen 1 in manual or a gen 2 in PDK.

Pros and cons of each are:

997.1 - can find one in manual. Will save about 20K compared to 997.2. Reliability issues will always be at the back of my mind.

997.2 - Seems like I will need to settle for a PDK. Will cost about 20K more but ""should" be a more reliable and bulletproof motor.

I know it comes down to personal choice, but any thoughts or opinions?

 

[ANF]

Welcome Slick! Drive both and see which one you prefer, then buy it

Good luck

[symsy]

997.1 MANUAL .. Rebuild it if you have to with ya 20k and or put that 20k into the second car classic fund     PDK is a lot of fun though

997s also the way to go 

[ANF]

3 minutes ago, symsy said:

997.1 MANUAL .. Rebuild it if you have to with ya 20k and or put that 20k into the second car classic fund     PDK is a lot of fun though

997s also the way to go 

So what you are saying is that either will be good 

[symsy]

I wouldnt worry about engine issues ...  get a scope down there and check ..

997S best bang for buck and looks 

997.2 unless you really need PDK ..I wouldnt pay the uplift.

I would buy a PDK car .. if my Mrs was involved.. shes a Auto girl .. I would save my 20k

[911 Snake]

I daily my 997.1 manual. Reliability shouldn't be an issue, you just may end up with a stronger left leg than your right . Unfortunately I spend majority of my time in inner city traffic so I just make a point to get out and drive her on the weekends when I can.

As mentioned above, a solid pre purchase inspection and providing no surprises, you should be fine. 

Probably overkill but I always let it run the cold start cycle on start it up (2mins or so) and usually dont push it over 3-4k until the temps are up. 

Summer 40 degree day AC on full = no issues either (despite the front rad fans blasting away)

Good luck! Either way you will be in a  911. WIN 

[Redracn]

Make sure the PDK car is fitted with sport chrono as it turns an average auto mode for doodling around town into a fantastic one for either blasts in the country (sport) or race tracks (sport plus). 

[red clubbie]

I just bought a 997.2 Carrera S, PDK.

It's the first PDK car I've had and I love it.

It has Sport and Sport Plus, which I think is a must for the PDK.

 

Cheers,

Geoff.

[Slick]

Thanks for the replies guys.  PDK car is fitted with Sport Chrono, but to be honest I think I'm leaning to the 997.1 manual.

[Peter John]

997.1s manual for the win! ?

[OUTATIME]

On 5/3/2018 at 5:39 PM, Slick said:

Thanks for the replies guys.  PDK car is fitted with Sport Chrono, but to be honest I think I'm leaning to the 997.1 manual.

Hi Slick, I’ve been where you are and I bought a manual 997.1 C2S Sports Chrono recently and I’m very happy with it and will give you my personal observations and thoughts but remember each to their own.

With your research you’d know it has a different engine and is not DFI and I’ve found that it uses a lot of fuel when driving it as it should be driven. I don’t generally worry about fuel consumption but sometimes I do go “wow I’ve used half a tank already??” On the plus side the injectors are sprayed with fuel which keeps them clean and avoids build up I’ve been told.

The PCM is outdated obviously with no Bluetooth and so far I’m not aware of recent map updates for the Navi. It’s grey and looks dated compared to the black pcm3 in the 997.2. The phone SIM card option no longer functions on the current phone networks unless someone tells me differently. You can replace the whole system but I prefer to leave as close to factory as possible (you can easily add Bluetooth music streaming and phone but lose the excellent CD player with some of the better aftermarket solutions. Btw the surround Bose system in the S is awesome. It absolutely cranks especially the hard rock. Tbh I don’t want to talk to anyone when I’m enjoying the sounds and experience of driving my 911 so I haven’t been in a hurry to add Bluetooth. (Sorry wifey, friend, work, couldn’t answer. No Bluetooth lol)

The Chrono option is more than just the timer and rev ranges/mapping providing programable driver options and settings which you can find in the ownership manuals. Leather options would be highly desirable especially the centre console which is cheap vinyl or plastic and wears prematurely. You’re looking at a couple of thousand at least just for the console itself excluding the ashtray and rear console cover and rear console extension. Don’t expect to find PSE on too many early 997.1’s as I’ve been told it wasn’t common. If you’re patient though you can find one with most of the options you want.

The manual is awesome to drive after so long in auto’s but not in traffic which I too avoid. I’m thinking of upgrading the transmission inserts as it is a little hard to “find” the gears at times with the amount of play there is in my 2005 circa 100k kms but honestly it is inspiring out in the twisty roads. The engine sounds great but I’m going to have to shell out for the PSE or just a Gundo Hack/Fister mod. Probably the PSE keeping in line with factory, with an override switch (yes I know it’s expensive, heavy and holds debatable merit whether it actually improves performance but I don’t really need more performance personally. I’m a factory option w@@@e what can I say lol). It needs more of that sweet engine note though whatever the solution.

An annoying aspect for me is the common foam issue in the air vents where degrading insulation foam from the internal “gates” shoots out the vents into the car, your clothes and face meaning regular clean ups. It can be fixed by removing the dash (long expensive way a dealer would likely do) or a short cut method that you can do yourself if you’re handy and have time (dealer probably wouldn’t do as it involves cutting a retaining cap for the “gates” to remove). Not sure if 997.2 owners have the same problem?

I have the sports steering wheel with the round airbag but would prefer a more updated version. The sport imo was the best of the ones available at the time but still dates the car more than necessary. The 997.2 offered some more modern options and you can retro fit steering wheels up to the 991 if you’re tech savvy and handy but if not the 997.2 already has some nicer options.

IMS bearing failure was a concern and I did a lot of research on this. What I concluded from actual data and not hearsay was the earlier bearing on the 997.1 was the one that failed in some cases and always seems to have that potential for failure. If it fails Porsche don’t really care but there are after market kits that feed oil to the bearing to keep it lubricated to prevent this problem and it can also be replaced easier than the later revised bearing which can’t be replaced without engine removal. I haven’t been able to find any confirmed cases where the revised bearing has failed yet. It seems to be the first bearing. You can check with Porsche what bearing the vehicle you are looking at actually has and don’t trust engine number ranges on forums as mine is an early engine number 04 MYO5 but my mechanic and Porsche confirmed it has the revised bearing part number so who would know!

I don’t know how many 997.1 manuals they made but overall they made a large number of 997s. I’m hoping not that many and have noticed like most forum members manuals do sell quicker than tiptronics. I purchased the manual for some hope of value retention with any luck as well as the feel of working the shifter. After a couple of months of driving it’s second nature but I do think maybe there will be no real financial benefit of an older 997.1 manual over a pdk 997.2 given the model updates that make the 997.2 more appealing overall. 

Subtract potential value retention from the equation and assume you want to drive it more than just Sundays through the winding hills and personally I would buy the updated 997.2 C2 non S with sports Chrono plus vs 997.1 C2S manual when looking at similar prices.

It has no ims bearing to worry about, a smaller capacity 3.6l which means less boring out of the engine block (997.1S has a 3.8l with some known bore scoring issues unlike the 3.6l), upgraded lights and bumpers, nicer looking pcm module with Bluetooth (more than Sunday driving eventually you have to talk to people), better fuel consumption, nicer steering wheel options and the paddles allow you to keep your hands on the wheel when giving it the beans through the winding roads. It would also be easier to finance if you’re going that option due to the younger age. (Book values on 997.1c2s manuals are much lower than what you actually have to pay to get one.)

Whichever way you go the best way to find the car you want other than forums and Carsales is the Porsche dealers. Tell them what you want and keep checking back with them. Go in there regularly to get to know them so they remember you and enjoy the free coffee and biscuits while you’re there looking at the beautiful Porsches.

A lot are sold to people registering interest as soon as they are traded for a newer one by existing customers. They generally have full dealer history and sometimes are one owner examples. I’ve found price to be similar to private at Porsche Perth for used 996s and 997s like for like condition.

My final two cents would be I’d prefer a C2S manual 997.2 all day when having more to spend for the updates to the car and collectibility factor without getting crazy on price. In hindsight I probably should have waited and spent the extra but I have to say I love my manual 997.1 anyway!!

This is a long post as I was up all night with my sick 2 year daughter so thought I’d spare the time to summarise a few key points. Good luck with your journey and as everyone says do your PPI and whichever one you buy you’re going to be overjoyed owning overall an amazing motor car.

[sleazius]

Never had the foam issue on my 07, you learn something new every day.

[OUTATIME]

12 hours ago, sleazius said:

Never had the foam issue on my 07, you learn something new every day.

Apparently it’s the adhesive they used to attach the insulation foam. Some of it comes out looking like Goldmembers skin flakes. “Save me from myself” lol.

Happens after about 10 years or so but also depends on climate for the adhesive to fail. Hot humid climate definitely things going to get flaky!

[Slick]

23 hours ago, OUTATIME said:

My final two cents would be I’d prefer a C2S manual 997.2 all day when having more to spend for the updates to the car and collectibility factor without getting crazy on price. In hindsight I probably should have waited and spent the extra but I have to say I love my manual 997.1 anyway!!

This is a long post as I was up all night with my sick 2 year daughter so thought I’d spare the time to summarise a few key points. Good luck with your journey and as everyone says do your PPI and whichever one you buy you’re going to be overjoyed owning overall an amazing motor car.

Hi Outatime. Thanks for your detailed and informative post. I too would prefer a 997.2 manual if I could find one and at a reasonable price !

I''ve decided that a 997.1 manual will be the go. Now I just need to find one that ticks all the boxes.

[911 Snake]

@Slick

What are the boxes you'd like to tick? From there, I'd split that into a 'Desirable' and a 'Not 1st preference but acceptable' .

If there's a lot of 'desirable/must haves' then you might be hard pressed to find one that matches your dream wish list (depending how patient you are). 997.1 manuals aren't exactly a rare sight but there's not an abundance either.

Personally, searching for mine a couple of years back, I gave myself some wiggle room as I knew if I was too picky I'd never find the exact dream spec when I was ready to buy.

EG: COLOUR:  

Desirable: white, silver, grey or red.

Not 1st preference but acceptable: black, dark blue, 

 

MILEAGE:

Desirable: under 80k

'Not 1st preference but acceptable: 80-150k

 

etc..

 

Happy Hunting!

[JB]

5 hours ago, Slick said:

Hi Outatime. Thanks for your detailed and informative post. I too would prefer a 997.2 manual if I could find one and at a reasonable price !

I''ve decided that a 997.1 manual will be the go. Now I just need to find one that ticks all the boxes.

@Slick where are you located?

You wont go wrong with a 997.1 manual for me the only choice. Try and get something around 07/08 year which apparently avoids alot of the potential ims issues (there is a engine number range you can get) but to be honest i believe its the 2% of issues dominating the majority.

Desirables and must haves is a great suggestion, work with what you must have vs what you can settle with. For me Manual, S, Chrono coupe were musts, my colour black was not my preference by far but happy to settle with based on right car right time.

Don't rush your purchase, patience is your friend.

[Slick]

19 hours ago, JB said:

@Slick where are you located?

You wont go wrong with a 997.1 manual for me the only choice. Try and get something around 07/08 year which apparently avoids alot of the potential ims issues (there is a engine number range you can get) but to be honest i believe its the 2% of issues dominating the majority.

Desirables and must haves is a great suggestion, work with what you must have vs what you can settle with.

I''m In Melbourne.

My list is not very picky so I'm sure I'll find something soon. Must be manual coupe. Ideally I'd like black or grey with black interior. Preferably 07/08 to try avoid potential IMS issues. Ideally low kays but more concerned about condition and service history. Any options are a bonus.

I'm sure my patience will be rewarded.

Cheers....

[JWM]

2 minutes ago, Slick said:

I''m In Melbourne.

My list is not very picky so I'm sure I'll find something soon. Must be manual coupe. Ideally I'd like black or grey with black interior. Preferably 07/08 to try avoid potential IMS issues. Ideally low kays but more concerned about condition and service history. Any options are a bonus.

I'm sure my patience will be rewarded.

Cheers....

Have you been to look at this one? https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Porsche-911-Carrera-2007/SSE-AD-5308883

[Slick]

2 hours ago, JWM said:

Have you been to look at this one? https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Porsche-911-Carrera-2007/SSE-AD-5308883

That car looks great, but haven't gone to see it because I really don't want another silver car.

[raafrebel]

On 5/9/2018 at 2:46 PM, Slick said:

That car looks great, but haven't gone to see it because I really don't want another silver car.

get it wrapped... pick your own colour...

what ever one you decide , you will love it. I have 997.1 S and love it. I wouldn't be worried at all about IMS, its a myth. If you want to keep your engine in top shape, use good oil, and rev it like its built for.

these engines love to rev and that keeps good oil all through out engine. they hold like 9 litres of oil.

[Tom M]

Hi Slick, I also went a 997.1 C2S manual. 

I absolutely love the car but worth pointing out a couple of things:

- I drive it only on weekends and a manual is perfect for that. For me there is nothing like a stick shift, you really feel like you "drive" the car. That said if I was driving it to the Melbourne CBD for work every day I think I would go the PDK. For me the manual would be hard work in bumper to bumper traffic every day.

- Be prepared to spend a bit of money upfront to get the car right. Mine only has 57,000kms on it but I ended up spending a bit to get various bits replaced (brakes, coolant pump, starter motor). Mostly wear and tear but it all adds up. Now its perfect. Not many people sell their car having just replaced a lot of wear and tear items so be prepared for that. Do a PPI (although be careful who you go to, happy to give recommendations in Melbourne)

- IMS. I'm no expert in this but I am told that the 997 S 3.8l engines are less prone to IMS issues, its mostly the early 3.6l engines (see attached link: http://autohaushamilton.com.au/news/ims-bearing-the-facts-made-simple listing only the 997 3.6l engine with relevant engine numbers, which they also told me verbally). 

Hope that helps.

[Merv]

It is about your experience in driving both and where you drive.  If you live in a major city, the manual can be a pain. I had a low kms Gen I 997 manual and in city traffic it was less than pleasant.  Out of the city it flowed beautifully.  Then back to the city ... PDK for me is a nice liveable balance, with the SportsChrono bonus. Only on Gen II and no IMS and the additional bonus of direct injection. I have no experience of the Gen II manual, it may be lighter in operation.

[symsy]

On 19 May 2018 at 8:28 PM, Tom M said:

Hi Slick, I also went a 997.1 C2S manual. 

I absolutely love the car but worth pointing out a couple of things:

- I drive it only on weekends and a manual is perfect for that. For me there is nothing like a stick shift, you really feel like you "drive" the car. That said if I was driving it to the Melbourne CBD for work every day I think I would go the PDK. For me the manual would be hard work in bumper to bumper traffic every day.

- Be prepared to spend a bit of money upfront to get the car right. Mine only has 57,000kms on it but I ended up spending a bit to get various bits replaced (brakes, coolant pump, starter motor). Mostly wear and tear but it all adds up. Now its perfect. Not many people sell their car having just replaced a lot of wear and tear items so be prepared for that. Do a PPI (although be careful who you go to, happy to give recommendations in Melbourne)

- IMS. I'm no expert in this but I am told that the 997 S 3.8l engines are less prone to IMS issues, its mostly the early 3.6l engines (see attached link: http://autohaushamilton.com.au/news/ims-bearing-the-facts-made-simple listing only the 997 3.6l engine with relevant engine numbers, which they also told me verbally). 

Hope that helps.

Isnt the start issue just an earth strap and in some cases people putting low cranking amp batteries ..  cheap ones when they swap out the OEM.   I know on my GT3 and it may be slightly differnet , when I swapped a crappy old century for a Silver Varta is cranks much better , not just in numbers but in feel , noise when you start up ???

[Slick]

Thanks to everyone who provided their opinion. I really did prefer a stick shift car and have ended up purchasing a 2008 997.1 black on black manual. ?

[GC9911]

14 minutes ago, Slick said:

Thanks to everyone who provided their opinion. I really did prefer a stick shift car and have ended up purchasing a 2008 997.1 black on black manual. ?

Congrats & photos?????