996/997 C2 - rebuild

[MW83]

Hi All,

Looking to buy a 996/997 C2 in manual. 

Theres a couple of 996.2 of interest ranging from 90-145k kms (3.6) All with servicing/maintenance history and the usual ailments resolved (IMS etc)

Always plan worst case scenarios, and wonder what a typical cost would be for;

1. Engine rebuild

2. Gearbox rebuild

Lot of variables in this I know, but just after a general ballpark idea. 

Cheers!

[tomo]

Engine and box, you would have to think 🤔 

Around the 60 k bracket, Maybe a bit more for bibs and bobs.

[MW83]

60 for both, you mean?

[sjm]

Haven’t gone through the process of rebuilding an engine (997 3.8) and/or gearbox, but when asking around specialists and those in the know, $40-50k for engine alone. With a gearbox, what tomo said is around the mark. Factor in waiting times of 12 months or more if going through Hartech or LN Engieering overseas. Plenty of info on Rennlist and other forums to absorb when researching this subject 🙂

[tomo]

3 hours ago, MW83 said:

60 for both, you mean?

Yep, But don't forget the bibs and bobs 😀

Hartech pricing.

https://www.hartech.org/porsche-engine-rebuilds/rebuild-prices

[Steve996]

I thought it was more like $25-30k for an engine build. 
@michel might know more given his 3.9 built 996. 

[LeeM]

1 hour ago, Steve996 said:

I thought it was more like $25-30k for an engine build. 
@michel might know more given his 3.9 built 996. 

 When a member here was quoted $50k for an air cooled rebuild by a certain Porsche shop in NSW, I'd say $25-30k would be way off these days

[tomo]

38 minutes ago, LeeM said:

 When a member here was quoted $50k for an air cooled rebuild by a certain Porsche shop in NSW, I'd say $25-30k would be way off these days

Hartech 10 000 quid build. I think we are getting ripped off in Oz.

ENGINE WITH CAR:

Remove engine, strip, clean & prepare for re-assembly, re-assemble with all new gaskets & seals, strip & clean ancillaries, re-fit to engine, re-fit unit to car, re-commission with new fluids, a/c re-charge etc. & test.

All new high strength aluminium alloy nickel silicon plated closed deck wet liners (all 6 cylinders).

New performance piston set with new rings.

New crank shaft main & thrust bearing set.

New performance big end bearing set.

New timing chain set with new guide rails.

New intermediate shaft bearing. (Assuming already running the late 2005 onwards version with larger bearing).

Basic cylinder head overhauls (strip down, de-coke heads & valves, re-lap valves to seats, skim & re-assemble with new valve stem oil seals).

New lower temperature thermostat.

New spark plug set.

£10000 + VAT

[JWM]

 

2 minutes ago, tomo said:

Hartech 10 000 quid build. I think we are getting ripped off in Oz.

Some times I think about how I’d enjoy starting a business rebuilding M96/97 engines in Australia and try to make a good name for it, like Hartech … then I remember the market is probably too small and also that I’m a numpty who doesn’t know anything about rebuilding engines 😂

[LeeM]

Just like everything else @tomo

 

 

[Harsh]

35 minutes ago, tomo said:

Hartech 10 000 quid build. I think we are getting ripped off in Oz.

ENGINE WITH CAR:

Remove engine, strip, clean & prepare for re-assembly, re-assemble with all new gaskets & seals, strip & clean ancillaries, re-fit to engine, re-fit unit to car, re-commission with new fluids, a/c re-charge etc. & test.

All new high strength aluminium alloy nickel silicon plated closed deck wet liners (all 6 cylinders).

New performance piston set with new rings.

New crank shaft main & thrust bearing set.

New performance big end bearing set.

New timing chain set with new guide rails.

New intermediate shaft bearing. (Assuming already running the late 2005 onwards version with larger bearing).

Basic cylinder head overhauls (strip down, de-coke heads & valves, re-lap valves to seats, skim & re-assemble with new valve stem oil seals).

New lower temperature thermostat.

New spark plug set.

£10000 + VAT

Agree.......$20000-25000 seems more realistic. How much is parts and what hourly rate are some australian 'specialist' repairers charging ? I think some of them are just taking the piss

[tomo]

42 minutes ago, JWM said:

 

Some times I think about how I’d enjoy st

41 minutes ago, LeeM said:

Just like everything else @tomo

 

 

arting a business rebuilding M96/97 engines in Australia and try to make a good name for it, like Hartech … then I remember the market is probably too small and also that I’m a numpty who doesn’t know anything about rebuilding engines 😂

A mate of mine has engine building specialists shop, Had a chat about the 996 engine building requirements,  He has just bought himself a new CNC Milling Boring ,Decking machine and rekons it would do the Hartech thing . Cost him a cool 500 k .

So need to score a some 996 cases  to see if he can do it..

.

 

 

[sjm]

There would be cheaper options for rebuilding these engines, some use steel liners. But to “cure” the M96/M97 issues, which to be frank there’s not heaps, it’s going to cost. 

[911CSR]

Manual or Tiptronic gearbox??

I had the Tiptronic and torque converter in my 996.2 C4S fully rebuild and upgraded to handle more torque etc and all in including other random engien work was approx. $15K.

Engine rebuild is still going but do not expect change from $30K+ with machining, parts labor and Porsche tax.

[tomo]

5 hours ago, sjm said:

There would be cheaper options for rebuilding these engines, some use steel liners. But to “cure” the M96/M97 issues, which to be frank there’s not heaps, it’s going to cost. 

Yes, But in the Hartech quote it's a total engine rebuild for around 25000 ozy dollar and they remove and reinstall the motor !

[sjm]

Is that remove and install in the UK?

Seems if you do the send from oz, the shipping, removing, installing and workshop markup here, make their profit on top. 
 

Haven’t done the rebuild myself, just going by what I’ve been told for a quality job. 
 

Be great if you could get an engine from LN or Hartech, out of a totalled car from US or UK at a good price. 

 

[9er]

The Hartech  spec is very basic, you could easily add a lot more $ on cylinder heads alone, once you started adding new valves/ springs and guides.

 

[tomo]

59 minutes ago, 9er said:

The Hartech  spec is very basic, you could easily add a lot more $ on cylinder heads alone, once you started adding new valves/ springs and guides.

 

Yes it would cost more if you spec it up, But if your donk has the B/S problem and not floged out, You should be alright after all it is a Porsche. 😉

[LeeM]

 So you'd be looking at 50-70% of its value just to rebuild the engine.

 Great value there 👍😅

 

 

[sjm]

LS swap🍿😅

Seriously, I have an LS3 in my work ute. Cheaper than oem rebuild (and some reports say lighter)😉

[JWM]

Unless Singer starts building on the 996 or something else makes them suddenly desirable, I think @LeeM is right that the maths is not going to look great on owning them as they get older and older … I spent more 50% of the purchase price of mine maintaining it over a couple years and that was WITHOUT a (full) engine rebuild. I probably took it to the most expensive place for work, which I realise now but still … When I look back, the maths was not favourable versus buying a GT3 at the time, which I thought was “silly” … turned out the opposite was true, buying the Carrera instead was silly 😅

I do sort of wonder if @sjm is right too - is the 996 destined mostly for LS swaps or even EV swaps? I guess ironically eventually original ones will become valuable if that happens enough, but there sure is a lot of them out there …

Having said all that, I’m a bit young to have seen the transformation the 964 went through, I’m told it was hated as a piece of junk that would cost you a fortune, now people love them? Is that the path for the 996 eventually? I’d kind of like if it were, I’d like another one, it was so much fun to drive, I never left the end of my street without a smile when I took it out. 

[911CSR]

Buying a car like a 911 is not an economic decision. if you buy a run of the mill car these days (Honda Civic's and VW Golfs at $70K+) or even something mildly expensive like a Range Rover, you're taking a bath on depreciatation.

If you buy a 996/997 and keep it runnign or upgrade it, you are highly likely to get what you paid for it or slightly more depending on the original condition. I was very lucky and got a C4S for way less than they are now worth in 2020. All the money I have and will spend on it is not an economic decision of will I get it back, its an investment in the experience.

Having previously owned a 968, a 964, a 993 and a few 996's as a per dollar of enjoyment I actually think the 996 is a great value proposition. 

If you are looking to make money, don't buy a car in Oz. 

[Steve996]

Call me crazy but I still find the 964 an eyesore.  
 

For me ownership has been less about ‘values’ and more about the experience. Like you @JWM, I have loved every drive and still look forward to it. The fact the 996 has appreciated rather than depreciated has meant even including all of the maintenance I could walk away breaking even. The same can’t be said for a 5 year old Golf GTi, WRX or similar (which was the price point I bought in at). 
 

If it does end up needing a rebuild, you’d just hang onto it long enough to enjoy what you’ve paid for. 

[JWM]

Alright, you twisted my rubbery arm @Steve996, I’ll turn my 996 Carsales alert back on 😁

5 hours ago, Steve996 said:

The same can’t be said for a 5 year old Golf GTi, WRX or similar

This was my original logic when I bought one, so I’m not actually that worried about what it cost me while I had it.