New IMS Solution

[Caver]

Lately, Amanda, Niko, Chris and I have been discussing IMS issues (again) or should I say (still)?

 

Looks like a new idea has just arrived with regards IMS bearing replacements.  The so called IMS solution.

 

http://www.theimssolution.com/

 

Be interesting to hear more about this.

 

JustJames? Comments?  What's the industry buzz around this?

[withers]

So the IMS Solution is new on the market BUT has been in development prior to the IMS Retrofit kits with the ceramic bearings. The IMS Solution is developed by LN Engineering and Flat 6 Innovations - just like the IMS Retrofit.

 

Seems this is a permanent solution designed to last the life of the engine.  And from what I read it works similar to how the IMS does in the Mezger engines ie via a non bearing externally fed oil source????  Is that right fellas?

 

LN and Flat 6 only offer this for post 2000 - 2005 M96 and M97 engines. They have no intention of developing it for the earlier affected cars.

 

The IMS Retrofit was designed as a short term 50,000 mile solution only. For people that don't keep their cars long term.

[T-Man]

If this is the real deal and is a permanent solution for the life of the engine then I think it's great news for Boxster and 911 owners.

Makes a great deal of sense and will instil huge amounts of confidence in the second hand car market.

[withers]

You bet Theo - for $3k on a car like mine with just 50,000km on the clock its a no brainer upgrade.

 

Unless i find something dastardly about it - this is what i'll probably do.

 

Here's  a quote from Jack Raby from Flat 6 Innovations talking about the testing he and Charles performed

 

 Quote

 

We are very confident after having sat our asses in the seat of the vehicle equipped with the unit over a 7,000 mile trip across the continent. Charles and I developed this from just an idea in 2009 and after 5 generations we finally have a perfected unit that passes every challenge we throw at it with flying colors. This includes 5,000+ start cycles, 300+ WOT chassis dyno runs, 170 hours of idling without being shut down (at the hottest time of te summer with ambient temps 105+ for a week) and also back to back testing for MPG, BSFC and power output.

It's a true solution from a grassroots effort from the two teams that truly understand the issues and what causes the original design to be inadequate. When we debuted the technology for the first time in my M96 engine class in Edmonton Canada after driving the car there the attendees were both shocked and the general consensus was "damn, that makes so much sense".

We will be offering credits to those who wish to trade their retrofit bearing in for a solution when the time comes. Flat 6 will be the exclusive installer for the first 18 months or so as we cannot afford installation complications that other shops may experience and overlook which would cost the technology it's reputation. The only way to know its done perfectly is for the hands that developed it to install it 100%.

I finished the 7,000 mile trip last night, our average speeds and MPG were staggering, even through the most harsh roads possible, to include a dirt road that was 107 miles long. Charles and I took our time to carry out this success tour ourselves to prove the confidence that we have in the entire development and that includes having zero spare "solution" parts on hand with us and the only tool we had was a leatherman. The car and engine performed flawlessly and it's all one big rolling experiment with many of our generation II engine components employed that reach well beyond the IMS Solution

[wasserkuhl]

I would happily pay for anything that these guys have made.

 

Worth the investment just to stop the sweating.

[GC9911]

Maybe Porsche could issue these free to all M96/97 engine owners as a good will gesture? Seems like cheap PR to me. Whose writing the letter to Porsche?

[Niko]

 

The IMS Retrofit was designed as a short term 50,000 mile solution only. For people that don't keep their cars long term.

So that's 80,467 k's give or take that my LN replacement bearing should/might last.

Think I might start to have IMS nightmares again in about 7 years.

I will probably be pushing my Zimmer frame around more than my Boxster then anyway.

Certainly fit the new IMS solution version if I was going down that track for the first time though.

[_Tony]

Great to see there is now a permanent solution to this. Good timing for you Amanda

[withers]

Great to see there is now a permanent solution to this. Good timing for you Amanda

Yeh maybe this Porsche ownership really is my thing! Stars are lining up!

[Yellowboxsters]

Yeh maybe this Porsche ownership really is my thing! Stars are lining up!

Definately seems like it. Wonder how much more it'll cost to install over the replacmeent bearing alone...

[withers]

Yellow - it's $3000 odd. The solution is a lot more expensive than the retrofit kit to purchase. Weltmeister have already installed this new solution according to Ben. If I go this route, I will get Welt to do it purely because they are experienced in the install already.

JustJames is doing some investigation on this now - also seems that there's some talk of the single row bearing experiencing more failures than the double row LN bearings. But that is second hand information - waiting on the final word.

[StevepGT3]

Yellow - it's $3000 odd. The solution is a lot more expensive than the retrofit kit to purchase. Weltmeister have already installed this new solution according to Ben. If I go this route, I will get Welt to do it purely because they are experienced in the install already.

JustJames is doing some investigation on this now - also seems that there's some talk of the single row bearing experiencing more failures than the double row LN bearings. But that is second hand information - waiting on the final wo

Does that include fitting?

[JustJames]

There is no indication that LN Engineering are withdrawing support (or ceasing production of) the retrofit kits.

 

As has been stated elsewhere in this thread, there have been around a dozen failures of LN retrofit bearings, but the strong supposition is that these failures are related to installation issues rather than problems with the bearing itself.

 

To the best of my knowledge, the IMS retrofit, that is now being touted as an 80,000km solution was originally sold as a fit and forget solution.  In any event, the IMS solution does appear to be a more thorough solution.

 

James

[withers]

Does that include fitting?

 

Yes it does.

[Harvs11]

my 2cents.  The IMS Solution seems a more robust design. It makes use of the oil just like all the other plain bearings in the engine. In this case the oil adds to the longevity of the bearing instead of destroying it if the seals fail in the roller bearing. It also removes all the moving parts of a roller bearing.  KISS principle at work here.

[withers]

There is no indication that LN Engineering are withdrawing support (or ceasing production of) the retrofit kits.

 

As has been stated elsewhere in this thread, there have been around a dozen failures of LN retrofit bearings, but the strong supposition is that these failures are related to installation issues rather than problems with the bearing itself.

 

To the best of my knowledge, the IMS retrofit, that is now being touted as an 80,000km solution was originally sold as a fit and forget solution.  In any event, the IMS solution does appear to be a more thorough solution.

 

James

 

Cheers  James -  what about warranty in Australia for the single row bearing retrofit kits by LN?  I have been told twice yesterday that as these are imported into Australia, that nobody in Aus is willing to warrant the bearing due to these failures?  Granted it's only a 30 day warranty.

 

I got the info about the retrofit kit being a 50,000 mile solution from the IMS Solution website.

 

Here's a link to it:

 

http://www.theimssolution.com/retrofit-vs-solution/

 

For those that don't want to go to the website - here's the direct quote

 

 

Should I Apply The “Classic IMS Retrofit” Or The IMS Solution To My Engine?

One thing is for sure, if you own a single row IMS bearing equipped engine the only bad decision that you can make is not retrofitting the IMS bearing!

Choosing the Classic IMS Retrofit offered by LN Engineering or the IMS Solution isn’t a difficult decision. The choice basically comes down to the following factors:

A- Cost.

B- How much you love the car and how long you wish to keep it.

Its pretty simple to make the best decision in regard to choosing which form of IMS retrofit that you choose if you use the above factors as a guideline. With the Classic (single row) IMS Retrofit being rated at 50,000 miles of service and requiring proactive replacement at that mileage point, people who want to keep their cars forever have been looking for an absolute solution to the IMS Bearing failure issues. If you want to keep the car forever then the IMS Solution provides a lifetime of service, because the wear components are removed.

The IMS Solution also makes the most sense with reconstructed engines, like those developed and offered by Flat 6 Innovations. These are engines with all twenty-four documented modes of engine failure addressed in their composition. It only makes sense that Jake Raby and his team equip all their future engines with the IMS Solution as standard equipment. Why reconstruct an engine and utilize yesterday’s technology that is proven to be marginal at best? Prior to the IMS Solution being available all Flat 6 Innovations engines utilized the triple row IMS update bearing and to date none have failed or shown any signs of wear, but its still a ball bearing and therefore will never be as robust as the IMS Solution.

If you do not love your car, or don’t plan on keeping it forever, then choose the Classic IMS Retfofit Bearing from LN Engineering and enjoy the car for 50,000 miles.

[JustJames]

@Amanda

 

Sorry - I wasn't suitably clear re: the life expectancy of the retrofit.  My recollection related to the original marketing of the product, rather than anything you had written.

 

Re: warranty.  I can't speak for anybody else, but I stand behind everything that I sell.  Any LN Engineering bearings bought from me will have the same warranty as if they were bought from LN Engineering.  This is in any event a 'parts only' warranty, which means that Porsche owners need to satisfy themselves that the work is being done by a suitably qualified workshop.  (That last sentence should not be mis-interpreted as a veiled reference to anybody - it is not.  It is merely a recommendation that the job go to somebody who knows their way around Porsches.)

[Russ]

I think the answer is either ask for a refund from LN engineering or sell the kit you have, and get the IMS solution. (from the stuff I've read one has a suggested life span the same as a clutch, the other is for the life of the engine)

[withers]

Thanks a lot James. That is a very good endorsement from you and also far more than any other parts seller will offer on this bearing (from my experiences yesterday anyways).

 

Sounds like LN and Flat 6 may have changed their marketing strategy a bit on the bearings for the single row once they put the IMS Solution on the market.  And thats another thing to consider too, this is a company obviously wanting to make profit. So best to make this decision with a clear head and not out of fear.

 

I am going to speak to Weltmeister again in the coming days about The IMS Solution.  Search a bit more on the net, just to be happy with my decision and most likely be ponying up that extra $1000 to put this into my car.

[StevepGT3]

Yes it does.

That doesn`t seem too bad for a permanent solution

[withers]

That doesn`t seem too bad for a permanent solution

 

I don't think so either Steve,  Interestingly yesterday someone told me that the worst thing to do to my car is let the engine lug or run it under 2500 revs. The bearing doesn't get to spin up fast enough and is more prone to wear. I thought  thats not an issue for me. But then driving the car across town last night it became very clear to me how easy it is to let it coast at 2000rpm.  You really can drive along at 60km/hr in 2nd gear and the tacho is only sitting at 2800- 3000rpm.

 

So I do need to be very mindful of this when driving this car... its very different to anything I've owned before.

[StevepGT3]

I don't think so either Steve,  Interestingly yesterday someone told me that the worst thing to do to my car is let the engine lug or run it under 2500 revs. The bearing doesn't get to spin up fast enough and is more prone to wear. I thought  thats not an issue for me. But then driving the car across town last night it became very clear to me how easy it is to let it coast at 2000rpm.  You really can drive along at 60km/hr in 2nd gear and the tacho is only sitting at 2800- 3000rpm.

 

So I do need to be very mindful of this when driving this car... its very different to anything I've owned before.

Having had Ducati`s with roller bearing big ends since the 70`s that are also prone to shitting them self, there was and still is plenty of speculation as to why they fail on some and not others. Everyone who supposedly knows has a different opinion, ie Don`t Lug it , Don`t over rev it, you must use this oil, you must change the oil this often,But having owned a few and been around literally hundreds of the things , all owned, ridden and maintained with totally different styles there ,like m 96 /97 seems to be no real rhyme or reason as to why some fail and others dont. It really seems to be the luck of the draw.

[withers]

Having had Ducati`s with roller bearing big ends since the 70`s that are also prone to shitting them self, there was and still is plenty of speculation as to why they fail on some and not others. Everyone who supposedly knows has a different opinion, ie Don`t Lug it , Don`t over rev it, you must use this oil, you must change the oil this often,But having owned a few and been around literally hundreds of the things , all owned, ridden and maintained with totally different styles there ,like m 96 /97 seems to be no real rhyme or reason as to why some fail and others dont. It really seems to be the luck of the draw.

Yes true Steve, that sounds very similar indeed.

[SteveT]

Interestingly yesterday someone told me that the worst thing to do to my car is let the engine lug or run it under 2500 revs. The bearing doesn't get to spin up fast enough and is more prone to wear. I thought  thats not an issue for me. But then driving the car across town last night it became very clear to me how easy it is to let it coast at 2000rpm.  You really can drive along at 60km/hr in 2nd gear and the tacho is only sitting at 2800- 3000rpm.

 

So I do need to be very mindful of this when driving this car... its very different to anything I've owned before.

 

Amanda, it doesn't make sense to me to drive your car at higher revs to try to preserve a ball bearing. That might have benefits in other areas but higher revs imparted on that type of bearing would logically do more damage than less. My humble opinion only, for what it's worth.

[Russ]

I'd be buying the best fix possible - Which currently seems to be the IMS Solution

 

then you wouldn't have to worry about how you drive the car!