Designing your own P car

[turboT]

Found a great source for 3D models of past models of P-cars (turbo squid). This will be invaluable as I start the design process for 'my p-car.' It should make it incredibly easy to backdate elements and identify which areas need more customisation.

[michel]

heres a thought

 

central steer 3 seater ala yamaha maclaren roof chop abarth bubble

[hugh]

I admire your keen interest in developing & making your own 911 but thought id add my 2 cents................

 

I've always loved 911's (since I was made aware cars existed!) and as a result spend pretty much any time I can looking at Porsche's (including time on this forum ). In more recent times, say the last 5-10 years I have been building a folio of Porsches that I've admired and on review its interesting to see that most (if not all) of my favourites are some of the most 'lightly' touched ones. I understand you are involved with design (as am I) and I guess for me it comes back to the Mies approach of 'Less is more' - cars being no exception. 

 

When I built my 3.0L I took an approach of changing as little as possible to keep it the iconic narrow body impact bumper 911 that I fell in love with but still make it 'mine'. Its a delicate balance but like any creative process it can be easy to 'over cook' things and when your starting with what is a beautiful car it can be questionable sometimes if the 'enhancements' really make it any better? 

 

I guess I'm saying this in an attempt to not discourage, but to reiterate why we all have fallen in love with these cars in the first place and to not loose sight of that in the pursuit of letting digital fabrication take over and create our own 'franken porsche' (not that I'm saying you will!) As much as we all love the Singer cars we also know how much $$$ are thrown at them to get the design 'right' but as much as I admire them I don't like them any more than a just a basic clean 911, sitting right and with a few touches that may not be that noticeable to a non Porsche fanatic - and I'm sure I'm not alone. It may in fact be that your dream 'hot rod' 911 is right under your nose in the form of your sweet new 930 and with some nice 'tweeks' (mostly able to be reversed) you'll have a rare and uniquely desirable 911 with the wide hips you so desire. I just seem to be feeling a lot of Singer hysteria lately from all over the place and again I do really like them but I can honestly say they are down my list of Porsches below a number of sweet looking original 911's that may or may not have hood mounted spot lights. 

 

I'm rambling, I know..............I'll leave now but I'll leave this here just to plant the seed.............

 

[ByronBayChris]

hood mounted spot lights.

Too many words...... This is what I managed to pick out as a summary. So your response MUST be on the ball.

Actually, I chose my 72T over other more expensive models available when I was looking. I did not want to spend $200k on an S only to be too scared of it falling into one of our historic potholes. I loved the shape, and chose the cheapest, most basic variant. It's not the fastest, but who gives a flying toss about speed when I have a smile extending outside the windows.

[turboT]

I know where you are coming from and to be honest this is the reason I bought the 930. I simply did not know enough about what it was like to own and use a 'real' P car. But I know I have to leave that baby alone, so this is a journey into the 'what is possible.' Singer for me have shown the way. There is nothing that compares to their attention to detail on the market. They have struck a very clever balance between old and new, highlighting everything a lot of us are drawn to in the older cars and combining this with a modern touch. I have yet to look at any P-car of any era and thought 'perfect.' I guess this is part of the appeal to many. It has always been possible to personalise your p-car!

I guess I am on a journey. The reason why I started my own company was because I realised I didn't want my bosses job. The reason why I am thinking of a Porsche design project is because I have no interest in upgrading to a 991 turbo and I better understand the limitations of my 930. If I end up with a Singer clone I will be a little disappointed ( not much:)) but hoping something more interesting will come out of this to be honest

Ramble right back at ya!

[Dusty]

So what's the plan Turbo, backdate/mod a 964 with glimpses of a 930?

 

I guess I'm asking for your 'vision statement'

 

[turboT]

That would pretty much describe the initial thoughts. I will work through detail as I (and my team of experts) figure out the best options. Eventually there will be pretty pictures

 

To be honest its about time someone on PFA donated a donor so I can get on with this!

[tomo]

I know where you are coming from and to be honest this is the reason I bought the 930. I simply did not know enough about what it was like to own and use a 'real' P car. But I know I have to leave that baby alone, so this is a journey into the 'what is possible.

 

So a 356 coupe,a 550 speedster a 73 RS, 911 S, A nice S C , a 964 C2 or C4 or a 964 R S or a 993 GT 2 RS is not a real "P car"   

[turboT]

I know where you are coming from and to be honest this is the reason I bought the 930. I simply did not know enough about what it was like to own and use a 'real' P car. But I know I have to leave that baby alone, so this is a journey into the 'what is possible.

 

So a 356 coupe,a 550 speedster a 73 RS, 911 S, A nice S C , a 964 C2 or C4 or a 964 R S or a 993 GT 2 RS is not a real "P car"   

I meant pre 996 as in aircooled. The modern cars are fun, but very different

[tomo]

Fair E Nuff 

[ByronBayChris]

Do it on a 928. Using 911 are old school now.

[turboT]

Do it on a 928. Using 911 are old school now.

Certainly a cheaper entry level. kind of surprised no one has started backdating 996's at you can now pick them up for $20k

[TrevMcRev]

Certainly a cheaper entry level. kind of surprised no one has started backdating 996's at you can now pick them up for $20k

 

 

[D-banger]

Singer say "By performing restoration and state of the art modifications to clients’ vehicles to update performance, aesthetics and modern day usability, we attempt to optimize the strengths while preserving and perhaps enhancing the essence and magic of this incredible machine.".

Singer have a very clear vision. To a large extent it is the "state of the art modifications" that differentiate from others and also add to the build cost.

Everything seems to flow from the initial vision.

RWB on the other hand are more about the aesthetic, or some might prefer to say RWB are about a certain look.

Being as Porsche is/was about performance sports cars, it would be hard for me to mod a P car without a heavy orientation toward improved performance.

[withers]

Where are the $20k 996s?

[TINGY]

Where are the $20k 996s?

Yep, i'll take today if you can find me a decent one.

[SteveF]

Me too!

[turboT]

Where are the $20k 996s?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911-2door-/201324117923

http://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-Porsche-911-d404#listing=106841595

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C569862

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C600923

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C593944

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C587349

ok - so I never defined the country. But give it a couple of years and I wouldn't be surprised if all pre-2000 996's were around the $20k mark

[clutch-monkey]

there's one on ebay for 30k.. they are getting close

[TINGY]

Yep there's a couple around but not at $20k and i don't think importing one with 200,000 miles on it is a bargain.

[Corki944]

$20k......

 

I'll trade me '994'......

 

but it would have to be a 'turbo'..........

[TrevMcRev]

All of those are un-importable unless you lived there and owned it for 12 months... pretty sure the costs involved in that would level it out.

[turboT]

http://www.flatpyramid.com/3d-models/porsche-930-turbo-3d-studio-max-file-max

[Stew F]

Here are my helpful hints on customising cars, for what they're worth.

 

I've built a few cusomised cars over the years.  70 VG Valiant Pacer 4 door, 70.5 Camaro, 37 Plymouth sedan, 30 A Improved roadster, 34 Plymouth roadster pickup & a 54 Dodge Kingsway mild custom.

 

There are some definite steps to follow.  Sorry if this is a bit long winded, but I've seen lots of guys get part way through a project car and sell it off because it turns out it isn't what they really wanted. Or worse still, they end up with a car they don't like, then the sell it anyway, and sulk over how much money they've lost..

 

1. Planning - know where you want to end up.  What style of car do you want?  If you want a clone build a clone.  But remember, it's only a clone.  For me, being different to what's mainstream at the times was always the main criteria.  This will determine where you need to start.
2. Running gear - with my rods & custom I didn't want to build a belly button car, so I chose slightly out of the norm things.  No SBC350/TH350/9" combos for me mate.
3. Interior - design to suit the style of car you're building (obviously).  If you don't like tartan trim, but it goes with the rest of the car, you're building the wrong style of car.
4. Wheels - same as 3. 
5. Paint - same as 3
6. Don't over accessorise, and put in real gear.  For example, if you're going to build a clone of a 911 with the same name as a well known  brand of sewing machine you need to install a fake clock, not a genuine TAG product.  (Google it if you don't know)
7. Don't mix styles or periods.  My traditional styled A Improved had a Y Block with triple Stombergs, alloy covers, black paint and headers, 40 crash box, 40 rear axle, 32 front axle, basic grey paint and red 34 wires (original 34 Kelsey Hayse's if you must ask).  Interior was just basic as it would have been from the factory.  And no rumble seat. That was it.  It looked very period correct, as did the rest of the car.  Built the picture?  Now put one of those wide timing belt drives on, or a stereo in it, and it see how much it would have spoiled the whole package. 
8. Don't let other people influence your plan, unless it the wife and she hold the password to the internet banking.  Get advice and ideas for sure, but don't let someone talk you into painting your car red because they reckon it will look great.  Unless it the wife, like I said.
9. Time & money - If you're going to do some or all of the work yourself, work out how long you think your bit should take based on your level of knowledge and expertise.  Now that number you have, that's a pipe dream.  At minimum, double it. Then there's the bucks.  When Mrs Turbo asks how much those barrels & pistons cost you can honestly say "only $950 dear".  But if you're going to pay someone to do it all, then be prepared to pay what it takes.  I reckon you'd easily spend 50K and some just on labour alone for a scratch build.  When Mr body shop says that body resto and paint job will be min 20K it will be 20K, and more.  He has to earn a living, so he's going to do it off you.  My dad always said If he's going to go broke, he'll do it sitting on the veranda of his holiday home drinking a beer, not working on someone's job for free.
10. Document the build.  Take lots of photos, write lots of notes, take lots of measurements. 
11. Every so often revisit step 1 to make sure you're not deviating from the original plan.
12. When it's finished drive the wheels off that thing.  Or buy a trailer, put it in car shows, and win trophies.  Meh!

You could build an amazing 911 for a fifth of the cost of a Singer,  call it something like a Janome or something, and chuck in a real clock.  That'd be unique.  Have fun.  My A roadster cost me under 12K to build because I did nearly everything myself, apart from the engine machining and the upholstery, and new tyres, which set me back around 4K from memory.

[turboT]

Here are my helpful hints on customising cars, for what they're worth.

 

I've built a few cusomised cars over the years.  70 VG Valiant Pacer 4 door, 70.5 Camaro, 37 Plymouth sedan, 30 A Improved roadster, 34 Plymouth roadster pickup & a 54 Dodge Kingsway mild custom.

 

There are some definite steps to follow.  Sorry if this is a bit long winded, but I've seen lots of guys get part way through a project car and sell it off because it turns out it isn't what they really wanted. Or worse still, they end up with a car they don't like, then the sell it anyway, and sulk over how much money they've lost..

 

• Planning - know where you want to end up.  What style of car do you want?  If you want a clone build a clone.  But remember, it's only a clone.  For me, being different to what's mainstream at the times was always the main criteria.  This will determine where you need to start.
• Running gear - with my rods & custom I didn't want to build a belly button car, so I chose slightly out of the norm things.  No SBC350/TH350/9" combos for me mate.
• Interior - design to suit the style of car you're building (obviously).  If you don't like tartan trim, but it goes with the rest of the car, you're building the wrong style of car.
• Wheels - same as 3. 
• Paint - same as 3
• Don't over accessorise, and put in real gear.  For example, if you're going to build a clone of a 911 with the same name as a well known  brand of sewing machine you need to install a fake clock, not a genuine TAG product.  (Google it if you don't know)
• Don't mix styles or periods.  My traditional styled A Improved had a Y Block with triple Stombergs, alloy covers, black paint and headers, 40 crash box, 40 rear axle, 32 front axle, basic grey paint and red 34 wires (original 34 Kelsey Hayse's if you must ask).  Interior was just basic as it would have been from the factory.  And no rumble seat. That was it.  It looked very period correct, as did the rest of the car.  Built the picture?  Now put one of those wide timing belt drives on, or a stereo in it, and it see how much it would have spoiled the whole package. 
• Don't let other people influence your plan, unless it the wife and she hold the password to the internet banking.  Get advice and ideas for sure, but don't let someone talk you into painting your car red because they reckon it will look great.  Unless it the wife, like I said.
• Time & money - If you're going to do some or all of the work yourself, work out how long you think your bit should take based on your level of knowledge and expertise.  Now that number you have, that's a pipe dream.  At minimum, double it. Then there's the bucks.  When Mrs Turbo asks how much those barrels & pistons cost you can honestly say "only $950 dear".  But if you're going to pay someone to do it all, then be prepared to pay what it takes.  I reckon you'd easily spend 50K and some just on labour alone for a scratch build.  When Mr body shop says that body resto and paint job will be min 20K it will be 20K, and more.  He has to earn a living, so he's going to do it off you.  My dad always said If he's going to go broke, he'll do it sitting on the veranda of his holiday home drinking a beer, not working on someone's job for free.
• Document the build.  Take lots of photos, write lots of notes, take lots of measurements. 
• Every so often revisit step 1 to make sure you're not deviating from the original plan.
• When it's finished drive the wheels off that thing.  Or buy a trailer, put it in car shows, and win trophies.  Meh!

You could build an amazing 911 for a fifth of the cost of a Singer,  call it something like a Janome or something, and chuck in a real clock.  That'd be unique.  Have fun.  My A roadster cost me under 12K to build because I did nearly everything myself, apart from the engine machining and the upholstery, and new tyres, which set me back around 4K from memory.

Show us some pics if what you have built Steve