The great wheel dilemma

[clutch-monkey]

Why are you so against using spacers? There seems to be some who are against them and I never understand why. Many of the cons put forward are simply incorrect. Porsche has used them on race cars and I know a number of race focused specialists who fit them without any issues. What am i missing?

 because using spacers for anything other than marginally clearing a brake caliber means you are missing out on sweet sweet wheel dish 

[DHE11]

 because using spacers for anything other than marginally clearing a brake caliber means you are missing out on sweet sweet wheel dish 

agree.

With (huge bolt on) spacer...

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without spacer... (same car - G series widebody with NB trailing arms) 

%5BURL=http://s284.photobucket.com/user/darienherreen/media/IMG_1827_zpsgsn9khvv.jpg.html]

So there is spacer (no dish) or no spacer (dish) - you choose....

 

 

 

[TAV]

Wilburforce.

I've been a very similar situation as yourself. I have a 1979 911sc with a wide-body.  I researched this a while ago and ended up with 17 x10 and 17 x8 Fuchs replicas from Braid. 

I'm running 225/45 front and 255/40 rear. Overall diam is 25in front and back which is what factory specs are, if I recall correctly. 

The tyres are Yokohama Advan V105 which have had some favourable views. I got custom offsets made ET -33 rear, ET -3 front so no spacers. I can send you some pics if you pm your email. (I don't know how to upload pics on this forum) .

 

Tim 

 

[SimonN]

I thought the rules in NSW are pretty similar:

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roads/safety-rules/standards/vsi-09-rev4.pdf

Page 4 - Additional requirements for replacement wheels: "The fitment of wheel spacers (or adaptors for dual wheel conversions) between the wheel mounting face and the road wheel is not permitted unless fitted as original equipment by the vehicle manufacturer."

I presume that you can get spacers engineered to be legal, but I have no concept of hard or otherwise that would be.

 

 

Which begs the question, what if they are standard, not replacement, wheels? Similarly, what if they are replacement wheels, but within manufacturer's range?

This is the dilemma. I have been through every rule and link I can find, and I cannot find anything that talks about spacers on standard wheels. Then there is the idea that Porsche used spacers so we can. What evidence is there that they were used on any IB car. Were they used on the wide body cars?  Again, it would be good to get to the bottom of this. i must dig out my parts list.

Edit to say that the wide body cars seem to have a spacer on the rear listed.

[TAV]

trying to post pic...

 

[Joshstix]

 

This is the dilemma. I have been through every rule and link I can find, and I cannot find anything that talks about spacers on standard wheels. Then there is the idea that Porsche used spacers so we can. What evidence is there that they were used on any IB car. Were they used on the wide body cars?  Again, it would be good to get to the bottom of this. i must dig out my parts list.

Edit to say that the wide body cars seem to have a spacer on the rear listed.

Ask the RTA or RMS or whatever it is called these days to clarify it in writing.  When I did they stated the sentence you're reffering to stating that spacers between the wheel and mounting face are illegal, is a clear self contained statement of the rule that is not dependant on what wheels are used.  The clarification I got about factory spacers was that they were only legal if they were THE spacers fitted by the factory to that car and it was up to the owner to prove compliance.

Admittedly it has been a few years since I enquired but the standard hasn't changed so I'd be surprised if how it is applied has changed.

[SimonN]

Ask the RTA or RMS or whatever it is called these days to clarify it in writing.  When I did they stated the sentence you're reffering to stating that spacers between the wheel and mounting face are illegal, is a clear self contained statement of the rule that is not dependant on what wheels are used.  The clarification I got about factory spacers was that they were only legal if they were THE spacers fitted by the factory to that car and it was up to the owner to prove compliance.

Admittedly it has been a few years since I enquired but the standard hasn't changed so I'd be surprised if how it is applied has changed.

Sorry to be antagonistic, but I don't believe that you can go with what they say. They may wish the  document was read that way, and they may be right that spacers are not allowed because of other regulations, but the section referred to is not a self contained statement in itself, does not talk to situations where original wheels are used. It is very clearly a conditional statement to be read with reference to the document title, the section heading and statement before it. On the basis of that paragraph, I would be happy to go to court on the matter, but what I suspect would happen is that they would roll out something else that explicitly states wheel spacers aren't allowed. What I want to see is the relevant document.

As for the spacers, again, I would like to see the regulations. Taking that interpretation, it means that it would be illegal to fit anything that was an option that wasn't fitted by the factory, and I do not believe that is correct. I believe that the rules are that if it was available as a factory fitted option, you can subsequently fit it to your car.

On principal, I never trust the likes of the RTA because they will always interpret the rules and tell you what they think. The response you get is not going to be from some legal expert. I actually had a problem with the RTA when bringing my RS into the country where their interpretation of the rules was incorrect after the inspection garage raised an issue. If I had accepted what they said, I would have needed to spend a fair amount of money but instead, i argued the point and escalated the issue and won the day.

However, I am not saying that spacers are legal, but that I want to see the correct documentation that shows they are not.

[JV911]

This is the dilemma. I have been through every rule and link I can find, and I cannot find anything that talks about spacers on standard wheels. Then there is the idea that Porsche used spacers so we can. What evidence is there that they were used on any IB car. Were they used on the wide body cars?  Again, it would be good to get to the bottom of this. i must dig out my parts list.

Edit to say that the wide body cars seem to have a spacer on the rear listed.

As that particular clause in VSI 9 refers to "replacement wheels outside the manufacturers recommended range", I'd argue that you can use spacers with standard wheels, or replacement wheels within the manufacturers recommended range. 

Similarly if they were a factory option on the model in question, you could use the factory item. 

I dare say I’m using replacement wheels outside the manufacturers recommended range on the RX2, but my engineer has confirmed a hub-centric 3mm shim can be certified if it is attached.

 

[MFX]

Bottom line is either get them engineered or, what they don't know won't hurt them. Just make sure they get removed if you have and accident before it gets assessed.......

[wilburforce]

For what it's worth my car got through RWC no issues with the spacers not a couple of weeks ago.  The spacers were mentioned and they said that because they were a Porsche option they were OK.  Obviously this is one persons interpretation - and a favourable one to me given mine are obviously not original porsche spacers (or sizings). Needless to say I did not argue..

I think in real life you would be unlucky to not be able to talk yourself out of an inspection by a Police officer - and would hope it never gets to court and interpreting the different states legislation.   Unless of course you upset them by asking if they're that guy from the village people..

[Carrera28]

For what it's worth my car got through RWC no issues with the spacers not a couple of weeks ago.  The spacers were mentioned and they said that because they were a Porsche option they were OK.  Obviously this is one persons interpretation - and a favourable one to me given mine are obviously not original porsche spacers (or sizings). Needless to say I did not argue..

I think in real life you would be unlucky to not be able to talk yourself out of an inspection by a Police officer - and would hope it never gets to court and interpreting the different states legislation.   Unless of course you upset them by asking if they're that guy from the village people..

I would suspect you are right.  

The main practical concern I would have with spacers would if you have a major accident and the insurance company tries to wriggle out of paying out your repair costs.  Again I would think the odds of your insurance company even knowing they were there would be low. 

[ANF]

I would suspect you are right.  

The main practical concern I would have with spacers would if you have a major accident and the insurance company tries to wriggle out of paying out your repair costs.  Again I would think the odds of your insurance company even knowing they were there would be low. 

If you are involved in a serious accident the first thing that happens is that your car is impounded, whether it is your fault or not. Then it is inspected to see if it is road worthy etc, they will pull the wheels off to check brakes etc. Finding wheel spacers that were not factory fitted would be a red flag and could leave you vulnerable in lots of areas, no insurance and you could be charged.... not worth it in my view!

[LeeM]

 I have (had?) a pair of spacers stamped with 930 Turbo, so you can use them if your car had them as an option from the factory. The inspector who passed my car is a Porsche nut told me that

[SimonN]

If you are involved in a serious accident the first thing that happens is that your car is impounded, whether it is your fault or not. Then it is inspected to see if it is road worthy etc, they will pull the wheels off to check brakes etc. Finding wheel spacers that were not factory fitted would be a red flag and could leave you vulnerable in lots of areas, no insurance and you could be charged.... not worth it in my view!

I am not saying you are wrong, but please provide me with the relevant legislation that states wheel spacers aren't allowed on factory wheels. I have read a lot of internet/forum opinion but none actually quotes relevant legislation. In addition, I find a few seemingly authoritative posts (engineers etc) that say they are legal. I am beginning to believe that there is a chance that there have been a lot of assumptions and somewhere along the line, fact and assumption have become blurred.

[ANF]

I am not saying you are wrong, but please provide me with the relevant legislation that states wheel spacers aren't allowed on factory wheels. I have read a lot of internet/forum opinion but none actually quotes relevant legislation. In addition, I find a few seemingly authoritative posts (engineers etc) that say they are legal. I am beginning to believe that there is a chance that there have been a lot of assumptions and somewhere along the line, fact and assumption have become blurred.

From Qld transport (was the easiest one to find)
"Wheel spacers (or adaptors for dual wheel conversions) between the wheel mounting face and the road wheel must not be used unless fitted as original equipment by the vehicle manufacturer"

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/-/media/Safety/Vehicle-standards-and-modifications/Vehicle-modifications/Light-vehicle-modifications/NCOP/20sectionlssuspensionsteering.pdf?la=en

It is pretty clear, an engineer stating what you have said leaves themselves wide open for litigation....

Vic and NSW same, pretty confident the rest of Aus is too.

[SimonN]

From Qld transport (was the easiest one to find)"Wheel spacers (or adaptors for dual wheel conversions) between the wheel mounting face and the road wheel must not be used unless fitted as original equipment by the vehicle manufacturer"

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/-/media/Safety/Vehicle-standards-and-modifications/Vehicle-modifications/Light-vehicle-modifications/NCOP/20sectionlssuspensionsteering.pdf?la=en

It is pretty clear, an engineer stating what you have said leaves themselves wide open for litigation....

Thanks. You are the first person who has actually found something that applies nationally. I admit i never thought of looking in a Qld document, because I know many regulations differ between States. I had checked the NSW site and they didn't have this document or link to it. I never thoight I would have to look out of State to find a copy of a regulation that applies to my State, even though they have a load of other documents and guides.

[ANF]

Thanks. You are the first person who has actually found something that applies nationally. I admit i never thought of looking in a Qld document, because I know many regulations differ between States. I had checked the NSW site and they didn't have this document or link to it. I never thoight I would have to look out of State to find a copy of a regulation that applies to my State, even though they have a load of other documents and guides.

I did not even twig that is was a national code...!

[SimonN]

^ Lol. See how f#$king confusing this is! What hope does the average guy have when there are both local and national codes, the local codes differ across States and some States don't seem to publish details of some of the relevant regs. <rant> This is why I hate the federal system. There is so much that should apply equally across the country that there is no excuse for the States to have their own set of rules. It is totally crazy that there are cars that are legal to drive on the road in some States and not others  </rant>

[JV911]

I never thoight I would have to look out of State to find a copy of a regulation that applies to my State

VSB does not contain "regulations" as such - it provides guidance and calls out the fact that there may be variation between states. 

 

[Joshstix]

Thanks. You are the first person who has actually found something that applies nationally. I admit i never thought of looking in a Qld document, because I know many regulations differ between States. I had checked the NSW site and they didn't have this document or link to it. I never thoight I would have to look out of State to find a copy of a regulation that applies to my State, even though they have a load of other documents and guides.

That is the same sentence about wheels spacers from the NSW document, its just in its own paragraph.

Don't assume just because it says national code of practice that it applies to NSW.  When I was playing around with heavily modified cars the NCOP was just coming in and the RTA were not recognising it, I don't know if it has come into effect in all states yet.

[LeeM]

 SA legality. 4th item down which I was told the same by the bloke that inspected my car (before I fiited 18mm spacers)

 https://www.sa.gov.au/topics/driving-and-transport/vehicles/vehicle-standards-and-modifications/wheels-and-tyres

[hugh]

Wheel spacers are most definitely for "Outlaws" then.....................Lucky I don't run them as the rest of my car is completely legal. Australia loves its rules that's for sure. 

[TrevMcRev]

I'm happy to run with these!

Factory 924 spacers = hens teeth.

 

[clutch-monkey]

I've never heard of someone having a claim denied due to wheel spacers.

if you're running a widebody with 4" spacers you probably deserve to though :p

[Cheshire Cat]

Just a show off u know

with spacers like 25 and 50 mm 16x7 and 16x9 sort of a stock turbo sizes

 

with a LOTS of spacers (about 65mm of spacers and adapters) 18x9,5 and 18x11

With NO spacers 18x10 and 18x12