New Nurburgring record?

[StevepGT3]

Hi Simon

The specs you quote are incomplete so not really meaningful. Such as the effect of dynamic conditions and the limits that must be met for the specifications to be valid like satellites in use but most off all with a GPS you must have the % number. Yes there is an indication of position error but that is just an estimate and not an absolute limit.

Now how many of the GPS have been extensively tested in real world everyday conditions, on land where it is easy to do, against instruments with absolute specifications. I would suggest none as no one wants to know the answer. Have the boating people independently verified the GPS systems?

And the biggest issue never confuse resolution with accuracy. Of course this along with many other measurement issues needs its own thread in a technical forum.

GPS are convenient and while people are inclined to accept headline numbers without question rather than understand all the information GPS will carry far more weight than is justified by its actual performance. 

Many many yeas ago now I installed a timing system at Indianapolis Motor Speedway capable of tracking multiple cars across a timing line. Part of commissioning was comparing to an existing IR light beam. The two points at the start finish were about a meter apart. This was enough to make a significant differance to the measured lap times based solely on the speed the car crossed the line at. We also had 8 other timing lines around the track and even if the car is running consistent laps the lap time as measured by each point will vary.

We also tested the 33 push button (stopwatch) people (each one allocated a car) and the results were very interesting. Just like GPS a person could on the rare occasion be very accurate then they could also be way out. I certainly hope no world records are determined using a stopwatch but up until not that long ago stopwatch was kingn a lot of sports and while now replaced by GPS in a lot of cases I am not sure anything has improved.

 

But what would you know Red.

[P-Kay]

@StevepGT3 you Sh*t Stirrer = keep up the good work  

[Redracn]

But what would you know Red.

I know how to read specifications and more importantly make every effort to fully understand them.

You claim accuracy of -+0.2kn for you GPS yet you admit to having to reject readings you know are wrong and far more in error than 0.2 so please enlighten me as to how it is accurate to 0.2 when you know full well it will provide readings with far more error than that in fact so far out that they are easy to detect as to believe them would mean some laws of physics have been broken. 

Edit

Just noticed Steve not Simon doing the stirring but in any case the above still stands as a reply to Simon. 

[SimonN]

I know how to read specifications and more importantly make every effort to fully understand them.

You claim accuracy of -+0.2kn for you GPS yet you admit to having to reject readings you know are wrong and far more in error than 0.2 so please enlighten me as to how it is accurate to 0.2 when you know full well it will provide readings with far more error than that in fact so far out that they are easy to detect as to believe them would mean some laws of physics have been broken. 

Because, as I stated, we don't rely on a one off reading of peak speeds but instead always work on 10 second moving averages and I believe the algorythm that drives it is capable of getting rid of the spikes in real time. 

But in some ways, that is irrelevant. I am using a relatively cheap device ( a few hundred bucks) that is accurate enough for what i need because it is an aid, not something that counts for anything important. However, the ratification of speed records is a different matter. It seems to me that if a recognised world body such as the World Sailing Speed Record Council, who seriously investigate the science behind accurately recording speeds by a wide range of means find that with the right GPS equipment they can get an accuracy to within 1/100th of a second over 500 metres using GPS,  something must be going on that you aren't taking into account. The alternative is that the WSSRC doesn't know what it is doing and all sailing speed records with GPS are doubtful, which will come as a great disappointment to my friend Paul Larson whose record was verified by GPS. There is absolutely no reason why the WSSRC should have accepted GPS records because conventional records using timing posts had been done for many years and there is certainly no reason why they are happy to acknowledge records that are beaten by a finer margin using GPS that by other means. Either they are being incredibly stupid, in which case why haven't speed sailors who do't use GPS kick up a fuss, or else the science does back up the accuracy.

[tazzieman]

I compete in track & field. The gun goes off , triggering the electronic timer , which at the finish triggers a photofinish , with times to 1/100th of a second. It's rather old school.

They use exactly the same device at the Olympics.

Why isn't this used at the New Burger Ring for the various hairy chest beating claims?

[Redracn]

Because, as I stated, we don't rely on a one off reading of peak speeds but instead always work on 10 second moving averages and I believe the algorythm that drives it is capable of getting rid of the spikes in real time. 

But in some ways, that is irrelevant. I am using a relatively cheap device ( a few hundred bucks) that is accurate enough for what i need because it is an aid, not something that counts for anything important. However, the ratification of speed records is a different matter. It seems to me that if a recognised world body such as the World Sailing Speed Record Council, who seriously investigate the science behind accurately recording speeds by a wide range of means find that with the right GPS equipment they can get an accuracy to within 1/100th of a second over 500 metres using GPS,  something must be going on that you aren't taking into account. The alternative is that the WSSRC doesn't know what it is doing and all sailing speed records with GPS are doubtful, which will come as a great disappointment to my friend Paul Larson whose record was verified by GPS. There is absolutely no reason why the WSSRC should have accepted GPS records because conventional records using timing posts had been done for many years and there is certainly no reason why they are happy to acknowledge records that are beaten by a finer margin using GPS that by other means. Either they are being incredibly stupid, in which case why haven't speed sailors who do't use GPS kick up a fuss, or else the science does back up the accuracy.

And what makes a 10 second moving average accurate. Perhaps the spec is -+0.2kn but only when averaged over 10 seconds. Devil is in the detail and as I said your quoted spec is incomplete. How do you determine what level/duration spike to get rid of and what to keep. 

The "absolute" accuracy of sailing speed records using GPS is in doubt as it is not even known.

You have also stated that the accuracy of GPS varies by location in the world which is correct (as well as time of day by the way) so how is it reasonable that records be set by regions where gps is less accurate. Isnt it only right that all records be set to the same standard regardless of location. 

As the video showed GPS speed is not perfect and no amount of wishing (data torture) will make it perfect.

I suggest you ask the sailing authorities for the technical details behind their decisions and for any proof of due diligence in ensuring it meets stated specification and the requirements of members.

[KGB]

Ze Germans in owning an Italian Marque allows them to live a little.

[Redracn]

I compete in track & field. The gun goes off , triggering the electronic timer , which at the finish triggers a photofinish , with times to 1/100th of a second. It's rather old school.

They use exactly the same device at the Olympics.

Why isn't this used at the New Burger Ring for the various hairy chest beating claims?

Yep using track supplied timing beams with a display at the end that can be seen out of the screen by in car video would mean that everybody was timed to the same independent standard. 

Perhaps settling any timing questions is not what they want as the controversy generates even greater publicity and that is the actual aim.

[tazzieman]

Perhaps settling any timing questions is not what they want as the controversy generates even greater publicity and that is the actual aim.

I think we have the winner here 

[T-Man]

I think we have the winner here 

Thank God for that because I was getting dizzy. Interesting discussion though.

[sandy468]

I think we have the winner here 

+1 .... and tougher than sloggin' through a Smitty monologue

[tazzieman]

[edgy]

Apparently it was on Trofeo R tyres

I am surprised no one has zeroed in on this factor. 

I have it on good authority the difference from MPSC2's to Trofeo R's on a moderate length track (4km ~) can be circa 2-3 seconds.

From memory the 918 runs MPSC2... would this not be a factor on a track as long (20+ km) as the New burger ring  (thanks tazzie) 

 

I recall the Turbo S vs GT-R argument from some years back... tyres were a factor

 

[Stew F]

With any luck I'll be there in late September. The plan is to be chucking some laps in my cousin's AMG C55 coupe, and hopefully, her son's TVR Tuscan track car.  

Then off to Spa.

[tazzieman]

With any luck I'll be there in late September.

Do you have a plan for avoiding the idiots? Brute speed? Early start?

[Stew F]

Do you have a plan for avoiding the idiots? Brute speed? Early start?

apparently they have it all worked out for me. Cousins husband is a regular track user over there. He used to ride for the ducati dealer in Koln. Now they just track the son's TVR, with the occasional jaunt in the Merc.

[tazzieman]

apparently they have it all worked out for me. 

So they are shutting the track for you ? Intrigued!

[Stew F]

So they are shutting the track for you ? Intrigued!

No. as in, my cousin's hubby & son have it all worked out.

[tazzieman]

No. as in, my cousin's hubby & son have it all worked out.

Ah must be the "RSRNurburg is pleased to offer you private trackday access to both the Nürburgring Nordschleife and the Nürburgring Grand Prix Track. Track Days are private events held on the circuit that require pre-registration and an entry fee, but hold many advantages over a standard Public Driving (Touristenfahrten) Session."

You don't want touristenfahrten everywhere!

[tazzieman]

For all you lovers of electrons and falsetto engine notes

 

[symsy]

Electric car wrong.. even ERNIE lost his throne in the end to electric vehicles .. I guess.. but real HP will win the day .

 

[tazzieman]

Electric car wrong.. even ERNIE lost his throne in the end to electric vehicles .. I guess.. but real HP will win the day .

How many laps can the scalextric car do?

[KGB]

If it wasn't solar derived power...

 

[Raven]

I would need one of these if I were forced to go electric .................

sound racer 

 

[tazzieman]

If it wasn't solar derived power...

I have been to Germany. the sun don't always shine!