Engine Oil & Last Century Porsche's , some light reading abservations

[Buchanan Automotive]

2017 , big year at Buchanan Automotive , we have never ever put out so much work & on the bigger jobs , the Ripple Effect is still a significant cause 

 

Ripple Effect ? ,what ripple effect I hear you ask 

 

Answer = Very Simple Physics with incredible damaging effects on last century Porsche engines in our climate  , or just about any climate for that matter when using completely stupid  Low Viscosity,  Low Oil Film Strength  engine oils( like the stupid use of a this century 5w-40 viscosity) in last century Porsche engines in our climate, its not as bad as it was 10-20 years ago , but its still bad enough & boy oh boy its costly to the owners & its Completely Avoidable & worst still , the use of these so called synthetic Low Viscosity , Low Oil Film Strength 5w-40 & 10W-40 engine oils has had far reaching consequences over the decades , meaning these last century Porsche engines only needed to be on a Low Oil Film strength engine oil for as little as 10,000 - 20,000 Kms to create accelerated internal engine wear & if that engine ( later ) switched back to a decent Oil Film strength 15w-50 or a 20w-50 the internal wear was slowed or even stopped( relative to how fast the wear was ) at that point in time 

 

During 2017 we had multiple ( new to us ) 944 / 951 / 944S2 / 968 Porsche cars where we were preparing for the new owner to do a bit of club track driving & naturally with these cars typically already travelled 200,000 Kms + &  some 23 to 35 years old already , we even had a very nice 968 that was low recorded Kms , but with Shocking amount of Valve Guide Wear & excessive con rod bearing wear   , the silliest thing would be to take one of these old cars to the track without some basic preparation , because engine life on a race track with a human behind the steering wheel & the "Red Mist" appears ( it usually does  ), engines that are worn / fatigued just go bang & its mostly avoidable  & naturally ,preparation is not just the engine / engine bay ( fuel /oil /coolant hoses) , but steering & brakes + ball joints checking & or replace 

 

Note } Red Mist is a saying when a driver gets way too excited on a track & goes all out , even though the driver had no intention at all in doing that in the first place (Male humans in cars Verses other Male humans in their cars = Interesting Mix of engines going BANG with old worn engines )

 

Three Main Areas of concern that we look / rectify before letting out onto the track , particularly if the previous service records show anything other that 15w-50 or 20w-50 engine oils being used previously over the decades , this applies to all 944 variants & naturally the 928 series ( two 944 engines combined ), but generally only if they are going to the track to be punished 

 

Area of Concern 1 }

 

Twin Cam 944S /  944S2 / 968  ( in many ways they are basically half a 928S/32v / 928S4 / GT/GTS engine ) , yes I know there are lots of small differences , but in basic terms they a pretty much half a 928 quad cam engine & like what we see on the 928 Quad cam engines .       The thin single row timing chain between the two cams , this is on the 944S , 944S2 , 968 & the quad cam 928 series ,  these tiny ,thin single row chains( one per head ) are quite suitable for what there are designed to do & thats simply to drive the Inlet cam by the Exhaust cam & naturally there is going to be a hydraulic ( Oil Pressure Fed) tensioner with its nylon pads putting sufficient out -ward tension on the chain , now this is where the problems start if the engine oil pressure is too low when the oil is HOT & no I am not talking about the track at the moment at all , I am talking about the years of driving , might be to & from work ( normal street deriving ) in the normal thick / heavy Sydney / Melb / Brisbane traffic snarls , engine oil hot & getting hotter ( all very normal ) except for one small detail , this poor 944 twin cam or 928 quad cam engine is on a Low Viscosity , low Oil Film Strength 5w-40 or 10w-40 so called synthetic engine oil during these few years or so , made even worst still in the simple fact that the very very low Oil Pressure at idle has to supply Oil Pressure to the timing chain tensioners at the TOP of the engine , the oil pressure that is already too low is even lower at the top 

 

So what is the concern  I hear you ask ?

 

Answer =   The Death Rattle , the engine oil viscosity is so low( 5w-40 is a good contender here ) for the conditions ( mentioned above ) it means that at that normal idle speed ( in traffic ) the oil pressure at the hydraulic tensioner/s is so low the tensioner is no longer tensioning & the poor little timing chain is whipping around on and leading to the cam sprockets on the cams , this death rattle also damages the nylon tensioner guides ( shortens their lives remarkably ) and naturally beat the hell out of this thin single row chain because the engine oil is Low Viscosity & Low Oil Film Strength the metal timing chain is able to cut through the oil film( much lower oil film strength ) and bite into the cam chain "CAST" metal sprockets , causing excessive wear to them , which in turn causes more slack to occur ( metal missing from the teeth )& its a recipe for breakage & break they do and its very nasty ( bent valves , hydraulic tensioner ripped from the head & smashes  through the magnesium twin cam cam-cover ( what an expensive mess )& completely avoidable 

 

Note 1 }  The" twin cam " camshafts chain sprockets are situated in the middle of the camshaft & are not replaceable separately , they are cast & machined finished with the camshaft( all one piece) , its quite a trick centre drive setup , but expensive if worn & they basically do not wear "IF" that are given every possible chance to survive , meaning good OIL PRESSURE hot at idle = 15w-50 or 20w-50 = ( correct chain tension at idle )  & sufficient Oil Film Strength Engine Oil to keep the chain from biting through the oil film & making metal to metal contact 

 

Both Sean & I have heard the death rattle on many occasions ( engine oil hot at idle speed ) , but never when the twin cam 944s/S2/968 or quad cam 928  has been on sufficient oil viscosity for our Australian conditions = 15w-50 or 20w-50 and the basic condition of the timing chains, nylon guides & hydraulic tensioner is in reasonable to good condition

 

We have lost count how many " New to Us " 928 Quad Cam ( 86-95) , 944 Twin Cam ( 87-95) , 964 911 , 993 911 that had dropped by our workshop ( Mid Summer/hot day ) engine Oil Warning Pressure light Glowing RED , Oil Pressure gauge reading virtually nothing , engine making interestingly bad noises (loose timing chain noises, all at idle ) and all these were on a 5w-40 & even some 10w-40 engine oil viscosities , drained this incompatible oil out of them , changed the oil filter & refilled with 20w-50 & noises dramatically reduced or completely gone & oil pressure warning no longer glowing at idle with that oil temp , but then again is says to use 20w-50 in the owners manual that was printed by Porsche when these cars were new , so its not rocket science 

 

On a  944S , 944 S2 or a 968 ( Twin Cam Engines ) we routinely remove the cams about every130,000 - 150,000 kms & replace the nylon tens pads ( genuine Porsche ) and the timing chain ( Street Car ) but on a more dedicated track & some road driving 944 , then we replace them more often ( cheap insurance ) , removal of the two cams on the 944 series ( 87-95) is much much easier than on a 928 quad cam , access is far better 

 

-------------------------

 

Area of Concern 2 }

 

Valve Guide wear , like on a air /oil cooled 911 engine excessive valve guide wear is always a great concern if the said engine is taken to the track & flogged , there is a reasonable chance the engine could drop a valve head , thats because the heat from the valve head is not getting dispersed through the valve guide & into the cylinder head , instead the excessive valve guide wear is trapping the heat in the valve head just enough that at high RPM it will fail & the valve head will just fall off & into the combustion chamber ( Good Night Nurse ). Naturally the bigger the valve head the more it literally weighs & the valve springs closing force is very high & these single cam ( 2 valve heads ) are slightly more prone to it , so be careful with old Porsche engines going to the track for the first time with unknown valve guide wear ( it can catch you out easily )

 

As I briefly mentioned above , we had a very nice example of a 968 ( manual trans ) at our workshop recently & during repairs & tests , we had the cams out & I removed 4 or 5 of the 8 exhaust valve hydraulic lifters & I had made years ago a special tool were I can easily do a cursory valve guide wear check ( while the cams were off doing the timing chain and slipper guides )  & I was dumbfounded by the amount of( valve stem side ways movement ) valve guide wear , I even took out some of the inlet valve hydraulic lifters & even found one or two inlet valve guides with way way way too much wear ,we removed the cylinder head this 1992  968 engine ( still had its original wax fibre composite graphite head gasket )which was rotted away( good to get rid of that and install a metal custom head gasket ) , but when we had the 16 valves out , the valve guide wear was out of this world ( way way war too excessive for there Kms travelled ) long story to this car , but in a nut shell the valve guides were worn by the previous use of a low viscosity , low oil film strength engine oil , very very common 15 to 20 years ago to use these oils in these cars , but it was all the rage then ( Emperor's New Clothes ), even though the correct answer was in the owners manual printed by Porsche 

 

Remember  }  There is NO Oil Pressure at the valve guides , its just very very minor splash( more of a weep at best ) & in fact the valve stem seal keeps most of it off the valve guide/valve stem , so the valve stem & valve guide relies on High Oil Film Strength engine oil ( Very Simple Physics ) , so a Low Viscosity , Low Oil Film Strength so called synthetic engine  oil can easily turn into high wear for mechanical items in these engines that get No Oil Pressure 

 

Basics Physics Time }

 

A this century low viscosity engine oil , say a normal street emission compliant 5w-40  ( available to the public off the shelf ) is always going to be lower oil film strength than a last century 20w-50 that has good levels of WWII vintage ZDDP AW packages & then if you compare the same 5w-40 emission compliant engine oil up against a 25w-60 racing oil( we use on track prepared 944 etc )  , then the oil film strength difference is greater still 

 

Oil Pressure } the lower the Oil Viscosity the lower the oil pressure in the same test engine at the same oil temps , so in other words a 5w-40 will give ( Hot ) a lower oil pressure in the same last century Porsche engine than a 20w-50 engine oil ( same engine , same oil temp , same RPM Testing / reference points , Very Basic Physics )

 

Note 2 }   In a last century 944 engine ( all ) last century 928 engine ( all ) last century 911air/oil cooled engine ( all )  , here is the list of engine components that get NO ( NO ) Oil Pressure & must rely on Oil Film Strength 

 

A )   944 & 928 ( all )  tall wide pointy cam lobes striking at high speed against the flat hydraulic lifter face , and the lifter/s is held up with two big valve springs ( no valve bounce with this spring tension ), this is whats known as High Wiping Loads ( High Loaded Flat Tappet Design ) , meaning the force applied is wanting to just wipe the oil clean off the lifter face , if the pointy tall cam lobe/s break through the oil film its instant metal to metal , the oil film is the liquid bearing , naturally its this area that ZDDP pressure induced cross linking AW film forms & with the correct Oil Viscosity , from minus 10 deg cel to unlimited high ambient temps = 20w-50 the cams will survive & as mentioned there is No Oil Pressure here at all , just splash   

 

B )  911 Air/Oil cooled , rocker shafts to cam lobes , same deal , no oil pressure , just a spray of oil in the general direction & the Oil Film Strength has to be high , same goes for the rockers pivoting on their rocker shafts , the lubrication here ZERO  , oil film strength only 

 

C ) 944 twin cam , 928 quad cam , 911 air/oil cooled Timing Chains against their Timing Chain Sprockets , , lots of forward and back shockwaves in this area ( opening and closing valves causes the shock waves ) , No Oil Pressure here to protect from excessive metal to metal contact , just slash & Oil Film Strength 

 

D ) Alloy Pistons in their Alloy Cylinder Bores , be it 944 , 928 , 911 , No Oil Pressure here , just splash & Oil Film Strength 

 

E ) Piston small end bearing ( top of con-rod inside piston ) , just splash feed & Oil Film Strength 

 

F ) Piston Rings against cylinders & inside the piston lands , just splash feed & Oil Film Strength 

 

G ) Piston gudgeon pin ( Wrist Pin in USA speak ) moves inside the alloy piston ( 944 , 928 , 911 ) and must be lubricated , no oil pressure , just a bit of splash feed & Oil Film Strength 

 

H )  Crankshaft Thrust Bearing , this stops the crankshaft from moving forward or back in operation & with a manual transmission 944 , 928 , 911 the load from the clutch arm pushing or pulling ( depending on the design ) will transmit massive forces in one direction & if the thrust bearing is having to cope with low oil film strength engine oils there is always going to be issues with the thrust bearing 

 

Note 3 } The crankshaft thrust bearing has grooves / openings through which the engine oil escaping from the adjacent main bearing must must be let through at the same rate as the other engine main bearings , hence the openings / grooves in the working face of the thrust bearing , in my opinion there is no oil pressure at this thrust bearing surface , and it relies on Oil Film Strength , hence why we see ZERO thrust bearing wear on any last century Porsche if its been on a 20w-50 engine oil at all times , but on lesser oil film strength engine oils we see thrust bearing wear , meaning oils like 5w-40 & some 10w-40 etc in our Australian climate , but then again the answer has always been in the owners manual that came with these last century Porsche cars 

 

Note 4 } 928S/S4/GTS Auto Trans version / Front Flex Plate deflected & pushing the bowl shaped flywheel in constantly against the engine thrust bearing , in a nut shell we have seen many of these over the last 15 or so years that the "rear of T Tube" coupling has not been maintained & the single bolt holding it tight has stretched & with the twist of the shaft under acceleration ( shortens the shaft momentarily )& because the front coupling does not loosen as much , the shaft pulls out of the rear coupling and over time you end up with the front flex plate deflected , its not a lot of tension ( you can move the flex plate in with you thumb ) but its a constant inwards tension & with the engine thrust bearing having NO oil pressure to protect it , it has to rely on the Oil Film Strength to protect it & if the oil film strength is low , then bad luck for you , because the engine thrust bearing will wear out & the crankshaft will eventually grind through the thrust bearing & into the crankcase .

 BUT we have caught quite a few ( new to us 928S / S4 / GTS 928 Auto ) cars that we have done our T Tube reset & new coupling index bolts  & measure the axial play of the crank ( thrust bearing check measurement ) & the ones that are worn ( but not worn out ) we have noted / recored the wear measurement number for that particular 928 , change the engine oil & oil filter to a good quality 20w-50  & then a few years later we go back in to do a T Tube reset & re-measure the wear amount & we have never seen one yet that the wear amount has increased one bit , the wear has completely Stopped , thats because we switched back to a high oil film strength engine oil & looked after the T Tube ( very easy stuff if you know what you are doing )

 

Remember , the Oil Film Strength varies greatly between most 10w-40 , 5w-40 & even a few 15w-50 in different brands & even great differences between the same brand but different countries 

 

Area of Concern 3 } 

 

In a 944 / 944S / 944S2 / 951 / 968 ( all ) the con-rod bearing journal ( big end bearing ) that will starve of oil pressure at high sustained RPM with normal hot oil temperature with a Low Oil Viscosity ( classic example = 5w-40 ) is journal no 2 & when it starves its all over in a second or two , crankshaft is destroyed & often the con-rod lets go = good night to the engine crankcase & sometimes cylinder head as well ( piston smashes into it , because its now free from constraint )

 

In a 928, 928S , 928S4 , 928GT, 928GTS ( all ) its con-rod journals no 2 & 6 ( they are on the same crank journal ) and like on a 944 its all over in a few seconds when its at high sustained RPM with the engine oil at normal high temps , the first one we came across was Charles Falzon who destroyed his engine ( on the road ) No 2 & no 6 con-rod bearings staved of oil at high RPM on a famous brand so called synthetic 5w-40 , the so called synthetic side of things did sweet F---k all for that engine ( destroyed / turned to scrap in a second or two ) & since then we have seen a few more , always on a 5w-40 or even a 10w-40 

 

In a air / oil cooled last century 911 > 993 , they will destroy con-rod bearings 2 & 5 , not on the same journals , but in the middle of the crank , same outcome if on the wrong oil viscosity at high sustained  RPM & hot operational oil temps with a 5w-40 

 

But Why is it So ?  

 

Answer is quite simple }

 

The above engines are all road engines & all road engines in last century & this century for that matter have to be functional with BOTH ends of the crankshaft to be used in practical ways , meaning the rear of the crank will need a flywheel , so there is no possible way of doing the Porsche 917 engine thing of having the engine oil pressure feed coming in at that end of the crank( axial feed ) & at the front of the engine we have on road engines pulleys, with a massive bolt in the centre holding the pulleys on that drive fan belts / A/C belts / Power Steer belts etc etc etc , so there is NO possible way of getting engine oil pressure into the front of the crank ( axial feed )

 

So what are we left with with all of us playing around with ROAD ENGINES , we have to put up with RADIAL feed into the crankshaft to feed oil pressure to the critical con-rod bearings ( big end bearings ) 

 

 

Think about it for a few seconds and it becomes crystal clear ,radial feed on road engines ( 911 , 928 , 944 ) is perfectly fine for most road conditions even at high RPM momentarily , so long as you keep the oil pressure up HIGH ENOUGH to overcome the high spinning speed of the crankshaft throwing the engine oil out ( centrifugal force ) through the very hole the oil is trying to get in to feed the Con Rod bearings along the length crankshaft , its a terrible compromise , but works OK until the Oil Pressure is insufficient & when it is at high RPM , you do not get any warning , its all over in a second or two ( BANG )

 

Here are some notes written by Hans Mezger ( the designer of quite a few Porsche race engines including the famous 12 cylinder 917 engine }

 

Because the 911 air/oil cooled engine used for road and competition had Radial feed into the crankshaft to the  con-rod bearings , the Oil Pressure needed at 9,000RPM was 70 Lbs Sq " ( 5kp/cm/2)  MIN pressure at max racing oil temp

 

The 908 ( 8 cylinder ) 3.0L air/oil cooled race engine had Radial feed to the con-rod bearings , to overcome con-rod bearing issues in racing the crankshaft required at 9,000RPM was 100 Lbs Sq " ( 7 Kp/cm/2 ) Min oil pressure at Max racing oil temp ( Thats Massive Oil Pressure ) 

 

Hence why proper race engines like the 917, 12 cylinder engine had Axial feed & with axial feed there are NO centrifugal forces pushing away the oil trying to get into the crank , so with Axial feed the 917 engine only required at 10,300 RPM was 34Lbs Sq " ( 2.3 Kp/cm/2 ) Oil pressure 

 

So with these  last century Porsche road engines we play around with , remember none of them are race engines , yes you can take them to the track , but we need to know why they go BANG & try to avoid it , so obviously we can not turn these into radial feed crank designs ( not going to happen ) , but what we can do is what Porsche did with their 1960's road / race engines , you work with what you have and recognise you need to compensate for the loss of oil pressure going to the con rod bearings ( big ends ) as the crank spins faster & faster ( radial feed has to fight against centrifugal forces ) , its not perfect but we can work with it 

 

Using LOGIC , we know that the lower the oil viscosity , the lower the oil pressure , very single physics & as you can see , last century Porsche road engines need high oil pressure going into the crank & thats why over the last 11 years in the PCNSW we have never lost a single 944 , 944S , 944S2 , 951 , 968 engine that compete at the track ( Supersprints ) & we and our customers have won multiple Drivers Championships & Super Sprint  championships & Motorkhana Championships ,  so to let you into a secret we use at the track a Minium Viscosity of 25w-60  Racing oil in all these 944 variants , two of these Porsche's ( 3.0L 951's on E85 ) put out just on 600 HP and they are all wet sump , no acusump & no dry sump & remember all these Porsche's are road & track cars , meaning they all drive to the track & drive home again , they are not dedicated race cars & remember the tracks we compete at do not have some of the very very long sweeping corners that exist at some tracks in other countries , so we can get away with no dry sump in our circumstances , the closets to that is the vary fast corner 1 at  Sydney Motor Sport Park , it is a very fast sweeping corner at high RPM , but we have no issues with it 

 

So remember , prepare a last century Porsche engine for the flogging if its going to the track & the beauty of the 944 engines ( like the 928 engines) , is we can remove the engine sump to change the sump gasket & at the same time remove the individual con-rod caps to check the condition & or replace the bearing shells & cap nuts ( all in the car ) , just like on an old Datsun 1600 or Ford escort , Fantastic Design 

 

The Above is MY OPINION in what I have experienced as a independent Porsche Specialist  working on Porsche sports cars 6 days a week  since 1977 (   getting on 41 years ) & the reason is I am sick & tired of seeing lovely last century Porsche engines being flogged at the track & even on the road on a way too thin this century engine oil & it all ends in tears ( Con Rod Bearings starvation mostly ) & another Porsche engine going to scrap metal ( lost forever ) , I just hope I can save a few last century Porsche engines from this stupid  avoidable destruction

 

And lastly , the above has NOTHING at all to do with this century Porsche engines , meaning Boxster , 996 , 997 etc etc etc ,I am ONLY talking about oil viscosity & Oil Film strength & Oil pressure issues to the 944 ( all ) , 928 ( all ) and air / oil cooled 911 ( all ) road going Porsche cars from deep last century from when 20w-50 engine oils were the norm 

 

Regards

Bruce Buchanan 

 

[LeeM]

  Yep, I was going to say that too ?

Very very informative Bruce, many thanks for sharing your experience with us plebs.

@AndrewW I think you should read all of this

[symsy]

Wow what a gem of a post .. Bruce without starting a holy war of lubricants ... do you have a pick of the modern products . Liquid Moly , Royal Purple  or even  Swepco/Penrite and  or similar high zinc content products and alike .

Mobil 1 used to be the words on most people tongues on the street and your viscosity outlook is a great observation and discussion that not one many of us can claim to have first hand experience of .

Love to know your picks for 

964s , 993 TT and GT3's if you have them 

Thanks again for sharing, im assuming we can all learn something from the front engined fraternity

 

PS the 911 3.2 seems to relish the Swepco it runs on and the Escort cross flow rattles less and smokes less when being punished with the ++zinc in my own experience , havent stripped them yet to see ..wear effect.. the Esky will be first

[GC9911]

Thanks Bruce, much appreciated. I’d be interested on your recomendation for the 991.2 engine.

[Buchanan Automotive]

2 hours ago, symsy said:

Hi Symsy & GC9911 , I do not give recommendations on brands & I do not have favourites , each individual has to choose given viscosity with the info in the owners manual printed by Porsche that came with the said Porsche  & by the info recommended by you're service provider , be it an independent specialist or just you're self 

The other thing thats worth knowing is that oil companies have in the past changed the formula of a given viscosity that you or I have been used to using & it is now not what you knew it once was , meaning things change , but a recommendation on a forum stays without change & it quickly becomes obsolete 

Regards
Bruce B 



   Wow what a gem of a post .. Bruce without starting a holy war of lubricants ... do you have a pick of the modern products . Liquid Moly , Royal Purple  or even  Swepco/Penrite and  or similar high zinc content products and alike .

Mobil 1 used to be the words on most people tongues on the street and your viscosity outlook is a great observation and discussion that not one many of us can claim to have first hand experience of .

Love to know your picks for 

964s , 993 TT and GT3's if you have them 

Thanks again for sharing, im assuming we can all learn something from the front engined fraternity

 

PS the 911 3.2 seems to relish the Swepco it runs on and the Escort cross flow rattles less and smokes less when being punished with the ++zinc in my own experience , havent stripped them yet to see ..wear effect.. the Esky will be first

 

[Troubleshooter]

Sweet bejesus Bruce, you are the walking encyclopedia!!

[Skidmarks]

Great article Bruce.

And I can confirm (sadly) the downsides of using low viscosity/film strength oils on older cars. 

We measured a power gain but learned the hard way about oil feed issues to number 5 big end on a flat six.  Overall valve train wear was also up.  It was my race engine and has the best of everything but we made the wrong call on the oil.  The same issue happened to another of our race engines.  Our new engine builder picked the cause up very quickly and made similar observations to Bruce albeit in far more colourful terms.  

I’m sure they work well in given applications but my 3.6 hot rod IROC motor wasn’t one of them.  

 

[AndrewW]

Great article, thanks Bruce. Now if someone can clear up the Synthetic Vs Mineral I'll be a happy man.  Victorian workshops seem to favour Synthetic were as in Adelaide full mineral is the choice. My 84 911 3.2 (ex Vic) is running 10w60 Liqui Moly Race Tech GTI fully Synthetic. Viscosity looks correct but the Synthetic base concerns me. Anyone got the good oil on oils ?

[3legs]

Thanks Bruce. Excellent info. Same with Japanese motorcycle of that era. I have always used 20w-50 oil on my bikes and never had an issue (well at least due to oil viscocity).

Now dumb question time (and I think I know the answer) for normal driving and not racetrack does a "thicker" oil eg: 25w-60 mean it can be detrimental to the engine rather than better for it?

Alex

[tazzieman]

Phew! Glad I and previous owners read the owner's manuals 

[LeeM]

16 hours ago, symsy said:

 

PS the 911 3.2 seems to relish the Swepco it runs on and the Escort cross flow rattles less and smokes less when being punished with the ++zinc in my own experience , havent stripped them yet to see ..wear effect.. the Esky will be first

 Penrite mineral 20w 60 ?

[9fan]

Great info Bruce, thank you for taking the time to inform us. This practical info on maintaining our cars is being lost as times goes by and manufactures go to component replacement and keep the technical info in a secrets box only available to themselves.

Before the purchase of my 968 having spoken to Shaun about these issues several years ago, on his advice I have been using 20W - 60 race oil and it has been working well.

Cheers, Mark.

[symsy]

46 minutes ago, LeeM said:

 Penrite mineral 20w 60 ?

that goes in the lambretta mate 

[Buchanan Automotive]

50 minutes ago, AndrewW said:

Great article, thanks Bruce. Now if someone can clear up the Synthetic Vs Mineral I'll be a happy man.  Victorian workshops seem to favour Synthetic were as in Adelaide full mineral is the choice. My 84 911 3.2 (ex Vic) is running 10w60 Liqui Moly Race Tech GTI fully Synthetic. Viscosity looks correct but the Synthetic base concerns me. Anyone got the good oil on oils ?

Hi Andrew ,  95% of the time the meaning of what we think we know or more Importantly what we want to hear ( mostly through advertising) to reinforce  what we thought we knew is overwhelming & I think confusing , hence the reason you mentioned just the two words Synthetic & Mineral 

Some basic info may help ( this is very condensed to stop people from falling asleep )

20 minutes ago I just put into Google the words = Are synthetic engine oils made from crude oil ? 

I clicked onto the first explanation from an oil company & it just happened to be Mobil Australia ( that will do )  & in 2 minutes of reading I found this statement on this website }

There are two basic types of lubricants available }
1 ) Conventional mineral oils are the traditional type & are still most widely used 
2 ) Synthetic Lubricants which are steadily growing in popularity 
Then Below that came this }

Both Types are made from Crude Oil that comes from the ground 

-----------------------------------

The reason I looked that up is to clear up one thing & nothing else & that thing is that 80 % ( aprox )  of everyone I ask the question to ( do you think synthetic engine oil is made from crude oil  ? )  & without giving them time to spend an hour researching it , the first thing that comes to their mind is that its probably made in a test tube from something other than crude oil , but what exactly they are not too sure 

I have always found that interesting , now to be more specific , you probably know that ZDDP AW packages ( AW = Anti Wear ) are very important to last century engines with High Loaded Flat Tappet OHC design ( 944 & 928 ) or in the case of all 911 air/oil cooled engines the valve guides are subject to a constant mild sideways push by its rocker shaft at any RPM , but probably a bit worse at high RPM  , but the interesting thing is that a deep last century DINO additive " ZDDP" is added to just about all "so called " synthetic engine oils ( any brand , any country )

Note } ZDDP was ( apparently ) first used in engine oils in the late 1930's    ,  NOW thats deep last century stuff 

My question is WHY ? ,      With the amount of expensive advertising and expensive research & expensive manufacturing that most oil companies have spent in this area ( Synthetic Engine Oils ) , what the hell is there ANY ZDDP at all in there , I was under the impression years / decades ago , that so called synthetic was some sort of breakthrough & it is is some areas , but it needs some or more than some ZDDP in it to keep metal parts away from each other in a car engine , truck engine etc etc & with the stricter & stricter emission protocols affection petrol & diesel engines ZDDP in engine oils has in a lot of cases been reduced over the last 20 + years , depending on the country /market & oil company/s involved that are selling into that market 

Note 2 } High Loaded Flat Tappet design is / was last century design that for long life depended very strongly on High Oil Film Strength engine oils , this century car engines ( multi valve ) are mostly roller rocker design , lower levels of ZDDP are needed & lower oil film strength oils are OK ( to a degree ) , even the 1988 EA Ford Falcon 6 cylinder engine was roller rocker OHC , so its nothing new , but helps with the use of modern oils  

Now are synthetic engine oil high quality = answer is yes 

Do you need to choose carefully in the use of some so called synthetic engine oils in last century Porsche road engines = answer is yes , in the areas of viscosity & Oil Film Strength

Would a 20w-50 so called Synthetic engine oil ( with decent ZDDP )  High Oil Film Strength be OK in a last century Porsche road engine for our Australia climate = Answer = Yes

Would a high quality Semi Synthetic 20w-50 engine oil with decent ZDDP ( High Oil Film Strength ) be OK in a last century Porsche road engine for our Australian climate =Answer = YES

Would a high quality Mineral 20w-50 engine oil with decent ZDDP ( High Oil Film Strength ) be OK in a last century Porsche road engine for our Australian climate = Answer = YES 

How Often should type change the oil & filter in normal road condition with the above oils = Answer = every 10,000 KMs or once a year 

If one was to use a 25w-60 so called racing oil to go to the track , how often should I change it ?
Answer  , change the oil from a 15w-50 or 20w-50 to the 25w-60 competition oil , do the event at the track ( one day out at track ) then drain the oil soon after & switch back to 20w-50 or 15w-50  , the reason is that the competition oil/s have less detergent ( reduced foaming ) and should not stay in there , or you change it a lot more often ( up to you )

So as you can see , there is no big deal , its all very basic stuff 

The above is just my opinion after 40 + years working on Porsche sports cars 6 days a week

Bruce B 

47 minutes ago, 9fan said:

Great info Bruce, thank you for taking the time to inform us. This practical info on maintaining our cars is being lost as times goes by and manufactures go to component replacement and keep the technical info in a secrets box only available to themselves.

Before the purchase of my 968 having spoken to Shaun about these issues several years ago, on his advice I have been using 20W - 60 race oil and it has been working well.

Cheers, Mark.

25w-60 race oil ( minimum viscosity at the track ) and engine Oil Temp not to exceed 120 deg cel,  we run a seperate oil temp gauge , this is extremely important

Bruce B 

[Buchanan Automotive]

3 hours ago, 3legs said:

Thanks Bruce. Excellent info. Same with Japanese motorcycle of that era. I have always used 20w-50 oil on my bikes and never had an issue (well at least due to oil viscocity).

Now dumb question time (and I think I know the answer) for normal driving and not racetrack does a "thicker" oil eg: 25w-60 mean it can be detrimental to the engine rather than better for it?

Alex

Hi Alex , no its not a dumb question at all , in the case of a 25w-60 for road driving and a last century Porsche road cars in Australia , I only stick to the script that Porsche wrote in the owners manual that came with last century 944 /  928 /  air/oil cooled 911 series in regards to our ambient temp range in Australia ,    from minus  -10 deg cel to unlimited high ambient temps }

Answer =   15w-50 or 20w-50 ,   the 20w-50 particularly has never ever failed me for road conditions in 40 years plus , so it would be madness for me to recommend anything else , but saying that Sean in his 3.0L 16V E85 951  runs 25w-60 racing all year round , both commuting to work in it 6 days a week & track driving ( Sean changes his engine oil a lot though ) , but thats his choice & he has zero issues with it & has been doing that for years & years & years 

Note } The above is just my opinion & nothing else 

Regards
Bruce B

[tazzieman]

I'll just toss this into the fire of this thread  Nothing burns like polyalphaolefin

"This 10W-60 Porsche Classic Motor Oil is an ultra high performance oil. This fully synthetic oil is suitable for the air-cooled flat six engines of the 911 models from the 3.0 liter engine and up. This fully synthetic oil is available in 1 or 5-liter cans. 

Starting from the 3.0-litre engine with dry-sump lubrication, the flat-six engines of the 911 are more suited to fully synthetic oils. They allow air-cooled engines to reap all the benefits of technological advances in oils. Porsche Classic's 10W-60 version is an absolute ultra-high-performance oil. Its viscosity guarantees optimum lubrication behaviour, both during cold starts and in a hot engine at full throttle. The fully synthetic PAO-based (polyalphaolefin) oil also has excellent properties in terms of evaporation loss, HTHS and shear stability. Anyone venturing onto a race track in a 911 would also be well advised to use the 10W-60 oil, since it cares for and cleans the engine. For example, the additives ensure that the flow of oil reliably transports particles and contaminants to the oil filter. "

[Buchanan Automotive]

10w-60 , what a bizarre over dosed Vii's ( viscosity index improvers additive ) oil , particularly for the track , in track conditions one would try ( where they can to keep the spectrum low ) , 25w-60 is bad enough , but a 10W ( YIKES )

Better you than me 

[tazzieman]

I don't think many of us old porschephiles have been fooled by Porsche's attempt to lighten the wallets, oil wise.
Of course , if there are any empty tins kicking around I'd take one or two retro oil cans fetch silly prices these days,  and in 50 years...I'll be RIP!

[OzJustin]

Hi Bruce

Thanks for taking the time to share your learnings.

I’m curious on the valve guides. For cars with high wear of the valve guides what do you normally replace...valve guides, valve stem seals, valves etc?

I assume there is a correlation between wear of the engine components when there is a history of poor oil choice i.e.if con-rod bearings are worn then one can assume that valve guides and cam sprockets will also likely be equally worn?

[Buchanan Automotive]

11 hours ago, OzJustin said:

Hi Bruce

Thanks for taking the time to share your learnings.

I’m curious on the valve guides. For cars with high wear of the valve guides what do you normally replace...valve guides, valve stem seals, valves etc?

I assume there is a correlation between wear of the engine components when there is a history of poor oil choice i.e.if con-rod bearings are worn then one can assume that valve guides and cam sprockets will also likely be equally worn?

Hi Justin , 90+% of the time is just new valve guides,  exhaust guides are the ones that wear more than inlet guides  , 10% of the time its some or all new valve/s because of the valve stems are worn as well & the valve heads are just too far gone , meaning( for road conditions) its mostly the very high km engines that will have the need for some or all new valves 

100% of the time every cylinder head that gets removed & dismantled for machining & possible valve guides , all heads get new valve stem seals 

With the 968 engine I briefly discussed , that was an interesting one , from going over old receipts of previous repair/s etc over the decades , back in the late 1990's or early 2000's the engine in this 968 was badly damaged & a 2nd hand 968 engine was sourced & installed , it must of been pretty bad to do that & the only way I could replicate severe damage to make most of the engine such a mess ( economic write off ) would be for me to install a low viscosity so called synthetic engine oil , say a 5w-40 & then take the said 968 to the track with decent "R" spec rubber & flog the poor thing , you will ( on low oil viscosity at the track in Australian ambient temp conditions ) they will starve no 2 conrod & this will throw the rod at high RPM = end of engine , this usually destroys the crankcase , crankshaft , sump etc  & sometimes no 2 piston ( now thats its free ) will smash into the head as well 

There is no other reason why you would go to the expense ( particularly then ) to source another engine , if it was something minor , you would just fix it , meaning if it didn't let go of the conrod , because the engine was turned off before the conrod let go ( pure luck stuff ) , well you just source a good 2nd hand 3.0L crank & new conrod set & repair the engine 

All avoidable with a track oil like a 25w-60 racing oil ( just so long as the old con-rod bearings are not damaged from a previous low viscosity mild damage High RPM event )

And we know on this 968 had ( with 2nd hand engine change in the late 1990's ) had new timing chain& new cam belt etc , but not much else  & possibly swapped the cams over between the two engines , meaning you use the best bits to make one good one , but this 2nd hand engine ( from the late 1990's etc ) had really really bad valve guides , so its a history of swapped parts & some new bits & humans using the FAD thing to do in the late 1990's , was to ignore the traditional oils high high oil film strength & give decent oil pressure 

Remember here in Australia , Japan , USA ,UK ,  Europe etc in the late 1990's onwards it was the "In Thing " to discard the last century Oil Viscosities because the "New to the late 1990'S " so called low viscosity synthetic engine oils ( like 5w-40 etc )high exposure expensive advertising was so appealing and most just fell for it , very very few thought of the consequences or most likely no one gave a crap or both 

Regards

Bruce B

[Peter M]

Bruce,

A couple more questions if you will indulge us please:

Have you any preference with the brand of replacement valves?  Have you found Intervalves to be much the same as TRW or AE  or should we spend a bit more and use the Schoettle brand ones in your experience?

When you talk about "High Oil Film Strength engine oil" are you talking about the oil characteristic that is best measured by the High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) test?

I would appreciate to hear your views.

Regards

Peter

[Buchanan Automotive]

Hi Peter , we did have a quality issue with one brand of automotive valves about 10 years ago , but since then I have heard this company did some improvements in quality control , and being some 10 years ago there is no point at all mentioning brand names & naturally at the time we had to quickly change brands & when that happened we never used that brand again ( our supplier quickly found another brand ) 

Like most things in life ( not all ) you pay for what you get 

Yes the "High Temp Shear Test " is extremely important( 80% of the story ) , but it not all the story .     As you probably already know with engine oils available to the public, there is one overriding way to improve/increase the engine Oil Film Strength and thats through the basis of Hydrodynamic Lubrication or put another way "to increase oil viscosity "( which goes hand in hand with HTHS ), so using this as a basis & then choosing an engine oil that has very good / sophisticated Aw packages ( anti wear) , like the interesting use of MoDTC or similar with ZDDP  ( referred to as moly )that enhances the way ZDDP works ( under high stress areas like high loaded flat tappet design ) last century engine design 

Regards

Bruce B 


 

[944s2cab]

2 hours ago, Buchanan Automotive said:

 like the interesting use of MoDTC or similar with ZDDP  ( referred to as moly )that enhances the way ZDDP works ( under high stress areas like high loaded flat tappet design ) last century engine design 

Regards

Bruce B 


 

Thanks for all the info Bruce, you are wealth of information and sense (a rare combination these days) 

Can you name then oil(s) which have both ZDDP & MoDTC, done a quick search and found nothing, Is it worth putting some MoDTC additive in the Penrite HPR30 I use ( I bought a load when it was on special at supercheap)

[Peter M]

7 hours ago, Buchanan Automotive said:

Yes the "High Temp Shear Test " is extremely important......

Bruce,

Thanks for your comments.  What MPa.s range do you recommend for the last century 911's, 944's and 928's that most PFA's drive on the street?

 

Thanks

Peter 

[Buchanan Automotive]

21 hours ago, 944s2cab said:

Thanks for all the info Bruce, you are wealth of information and sense (a rare combination these days) 

Can you name then oil(s) which have both ZDDP & MoDTC, done a quick search and found nothing, Is it worth putting some MoDTC additive in the Penrite HPR30 I use ( I bought a load when it was on special at supercheap)

No point , because the oil company/s and versions of oils that did have that additive "and mentioned it "did so quite few years ago but now days no longer does( or they do not mention it at all ) for reasons only known by the oil companies alone , so in other words oil companies change their formulations even minutely quite often , this is the reason I will not mention / recommend any street oil these days , I only recommend the engine oil viscosity that was written by Porsche in the owners manual when you car was new = 20w-50 from minus - 10 deg cel to unlimited high ambient temps

And I do NOT recommend adding anything to you're street oil from ( say in this case Penrite HPR30 ) , use as is ( add nothing ) 

Regards
Bruce B