Uncle Posted 12August, 2014 Author Report Share Posted 12August, 2014 For intercooler or Water/Meth injection? I do want to set up a couple of foggers over the top of the cooler before the SM1000 if I can find the time. Water/Meth is a bit pointless without EFI. The MFI has so little scope for AFR adjustment I'd be better off getting an "adjustable" WUR and going from there. If I'm honest I don't see alot of point in doing that either as you're still stuck with CIS/MFI billion year old tech. That is great if it's all working well etc but really there is 30 or 40 horsepower just sitting on the table going to 3.2 manifold and real EFI. The seppo's make out its some kind of huge deal "Going EFI" when in the real light of day it's not. It's a semi-complex task that any person who knows how an engine works can do. Sure auto sparky stuff is not my skill set but I know what things do and know what a crank angle sensor looks like and how many .5's of a mm it needs to be from the trigger wheel. They also make out it's a big deal that you have to re-tune the EFI for any changes made and that costs dyno time bla bla bla. Fact is carbs need the same thing. Only rather than a need a #4 flat blade you need to know how to press +/- then control C and V. I've seen posts on P.P with Motech bills running into the mid 20k mark. That's just laughable and the workshops charging that money must be rolling in the cash. I'm not talking about full "supercar" looms with dash cluster and wheelspeed /gear ref boost control either. I'm talking basic set ups like my old car but with cam position sensor. It's simply because the general population are still 10 years behind us in understanding EFI. The boom you see in Magasquirt is A. because it's American and B. Because it's American there are 11ty seppo's all playing with it at the one time so you get collective thinking / problem solving. Much like 10,000 monkeys all sitting in the same room with laptops. I know of 4 Australian blokes who more or less live full time in the U.S just doing EFI and tunes. 3 of them know more than I ever will and one is a low life scumbag (Dynosteve) yet even he can make good money just because he has half a clue and only blows up a few cars a year. Sorry about the rant lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted 12August, 2014 Report Share Posted 12August, 2014 $20k for tuning a Motec? Jesus Christ. And you're admitting to knowing DynoSteve? lol water spray on the intercooler must be easy enough - old washer bottle and pump and run a wire to the cabin and push button (would be better with EFI/ECU so you can control it automatically) obviously also do the same when shooting Water/Methanol and cranking up the boost. I'm always amazed how far behind the Americans are in EFI though, makes sense how Steve is over there and still making money. I think the best thing about EFI is all the management options for intake temperatures even down to testing efficiency of the intercooler. I'm jealous of your car and hate this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted 12August, 2014 Author Report Share Posted 12August, 2014 No the 20k bills have been for supply,install and tune. I think Gabe aka Reaper and his K3 build was 28K in Motch alone without the cost of getting it tuned. Crazy money for no real reason.. I don't personaly know Steve (thank god) but I do know the 3 other guys one of whom just tunes and installs Microtech in dragcars. While they are 6 and 7 second cars dribbletech is a fancy on/off switch lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastr Posted 12August, 2014 Report Share Posted 12August, 2014 Back in the day I fantasised about putting EFI on my car. I had to replace the engine (wouldn't start, and they won't if there is no oil in the sump, but that's another story) and I bought an import Jap engine, stripped off the EFI gear and put the long motor in with the original carbs. But that EFI manifold just sat there, and I read up all about Microtechs and oxygen sensors and all sorts of stuff. I even got as far as getting an o2 sensor plumbed into the exhaust manifold and had the injectors cleaned and started looking for a suitable fuel pump. But I didn't have enough cash and lost interest and moved on in life and sold all the bits. One day I will get back to building an EFI engine from parts. To me it's the perfect mix of mechanical and electronics and puzzle solving. And you can get an EFI engine to run perfectly if you know what you're doing. A mate of mine built a k-jet engine from a hodgepodge of parts and it ran great at full noise but idled like a pig and ran too rich just about everywhere. Tuning that to the last 10% was just job too hard but EFI would have done it perfectly. On the dyne tune - surely you can get a map as a starting point and go from there? Can't you also tune on the go (i.e., laptop in the front seat, real world driving?) Like anything these days, it's the labour costs that will kill you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clutch-monkey Posted 12August, 2014 Report Share Posted 12August, 2014 20k for efi install and tune?? :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted 12August, 2014 Author Report Share Posted 12August, 2014 Back in the day I fantasised about putting EFI on my car. I had to replace the engine (wouldn't start, and they won't if there is no oil in the sump, but that's another story) and I bought an import Jap engine, stripped off the EFI gear and put the long motor in with the original carbs. But that EFI manifold just sat there, and I read up all about Microtechs and oxygen sensors and all sorts of stuff. I even got as far as getting an o2 sensor plumbed into the exhaust manifold and had the injectors cleaned and started looking for a suitable fuel pump. But I didn't have enough cash and lost interest and moved on in life and sold all the bits. One day I will get back to building an EFI engine from parts. To me it's the perfect mix of mechanical and electronics and puzzle solving. And you can get an EFI engine to run perfectly if you know what you're doing. A mate of mine built a k-jet engine from a hodgepodge of parts and it ran great at full noise but idled like a pig and ran too rich just about everywhere. Tuning that to the last 10% was just job too hard but EFI would have done it perfectly. On the dyne tune - surely you can get a map as a starting point and go from there? Can't you also tune on the go (i.e., laptop in the front seat, real world driving?) Like anything these days, it's the labour costs that will kill you. I started out with the very first of the microtech D1 on a mates 12a turbo. Like I said autosparky is not my skill set but we had mates who did it for a living so getting it in the car was the easy part. A good EFI tune is the last 10%. You can rough out a base map without ever starting the engine if you know your stuff. I'm not that good but I can tune my car on the fly with a laptop on the other seat and the datalogger on. It's never as good as a dyno but it is a good tool to know how to use. You can also use autotune to help with mapping but it will not be as good as a real person with a pair of ears and a feel for what a motor should be doing. Going back a few years a mate (the same bloke Nath was talking about Dale from Castle Hill Performance) and I pushed the very outer limits of what you could do with just a cam,fuel and valve springs on LS1 engines. My ute as far as I know is still the quickest and fastest (they are not the same thing) "cam only" LS1 in Australia. We would spend nights with it on the dyno tuning then at 10pm while still on the dyno do a cam change to try and eek out the last 2% of power just to try and run 1/10th quicker on the 1/4 mile. When Dale was in the ute tuning it I'd standing looking at the engine listening. We didn't even have to look at the screen to know when it was juuuust on the limit. We could just look at each other and know that that was it. What I'm getting at is the very best of a tune comes from knowing when you're done and you're only done in the last few % of it. If you ever hear the term "Safe tune" what they are really saying is 90% tuned and have not had it on the dyno. A real tune is always safe even at it's very limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted 12August, 2014 Author Report Share Posted 12August, 2014 20k for efi install and tune?? :lol: I know right. I have little interest in putting wires in cars but I like the tune part of the job. I've often thought I need to get on the bandwagon and make some money out of them. What also cracks me up is guys from say southern Cali sharing Megasquirt tunes with guys from upstate N.Y and the guy from NY is shocked that the tune is not that great. They both scratch their heads while never once thinking about factors other than the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clutch-monkey Posted 12August, 2014 Report Share Posted 12August, 2014 makes my SC's 'EFI conversion' seem like much better value (throw a 3.6 in for 14k) 20k is just.. out there haha i agree, it's also why they seem to love SW chips so much. i mean they work, but it's hardly going to be the best option. here everyone is a bit wary of 'one tune fits all' chips..CNJ quoted $1700 to fit and tune a piggyback ecu which seems like a decent option. i'd like to change the 964 turbro to efi so will be interested in seeing how you go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted 12August, 2014 Author Report Share Posted 12August, 2014 So what are you doing with that K29 again? Agreed on one size fits all potato chips. Just ask Wayne Besanko! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clutch-monkey Posted 12August, 2014 Report Share Posted 12August, 2014 don't know yet- surely there has to be better turbo options out there now, but on the flipside nothing feels quite so turbocharged as a K29. put your foot down and a little gnome that lives under the throttle pedal posts a letter to the engine bay asking for double the power in about 3 seconds time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatout Posted 12August, 2014 Report Share Posted 12August, 2014 I once used a tuner (for a rotary) that used to go to the US to tune cars and I was not happy with his tune at all, couldn't understand wall all the fuss was about. Later had it tuned by Phil Laird, huge difference in driveability, and that was with a microcrap. Good tuners are worth their weight in gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV911 Posted 12August, 2014 Report Share Posted 12August, 2014 put your foot down and a little gnome that lives under the throttle pedal posts a letter to the engine bay asking for double the power in about 3 seconds time Bridge to engine room; more power! Aye captain! Re intakes, would 964 gear work? And re engine management, I was quoted under 6k for motec. Loom, ecu, fitting, tuning (by mr motec himself), the lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted 12August, 2014 Author Report Share Posted 12August, 2014 Yeah 6k for a 100% unlocked M600 plus fitting etc is about on the money. 964 manifold can be made to work but for FI the 3.2 is a much better choice. Reasons being is it bolts to the head without the need for 2 bolt to 3 bolt flanges. The T/B set up on the 3.2 is a simple round jobbie you just need to put a TPS on and you're done. The factory TPS on the 3.2 is really just a 3 point switch. The T/B set up on the 964 is much more complex and also a weird shape so intake pipes won't just clamp on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV911 Posted 13August, 2014 Report Share Posted 13August, 2014 Ah I see. Didn't think about the flanges Great thread by the way team. Very educational Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozracer Posted 13August, 2014 Report Share Posted 13August, 2014 Do it yourself for near half of that if you are handy its not hard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted 26August, 2014 Author Report Share Posted 26August, 2014 So I got this on the dyno yesterday to get a baseline before I do any mods. The PO claimed 400rwhp well past the limits of the stock CIS system. The car pulls very hard and he had not had it on the dyno before so seat of the pants I can see how he came to that conclusion. There is also another thing I think he missed. I think it's had the diff gears changed. They guy who owned it when I first looked at the car built offroad race cars for a living. A very common gearbox to use in those things is a 930 box. The first thing you do in an off road car is change the diff gears because there are not too many races you need 250kph+. If any other 930 owners want to jump in with some knowledge I'm all ears. At 110kph my Tach is sitting bang on 3,200 RPM in 4th and that just felt to me like more revs than the factory would of placed the car at. I sent OZ930 an SMS asking what his car sat at and he thought it was around 2,400RPM in 4th. Anyway here is the graph... H.P is way down but the torque is very good at 487FtLb. We only did one solid pull as you can see the Lambda drops off the cliff as it comes on boost. This is a major concern and will need to be looked at asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OZ930 Posted 26August, 2014 Report Share Posted 26August, 2014 Not bad for 1 cylinder on the car…….graphs don't lie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted 26August, 2014 Author Report Share Posted 26August, 2014 Just imagine if I had the other 5 working! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clutch-monkey Posted 26August, 2014 Report Share Posted 26August, 2014 that's similar what our 964 put out pretty much- same thing, PO claimed a bunch of mods that i took with a grain of salt, first time on the dyno showed it was running very lean up top. flicking through the receipts showed a K29 fitted in the 90's with B&B exhaust but no other supporting mods lol agree with oz930 final drive should be showing 2400-2500 rpm at motorway speeds. 3200rpm is what the 4th gear in a G50 would do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted 26August, 2014 Author Report Share Posted 26August, 2014 Did you do anything to correct the lean condition Clutch? I'm thinking WUR,fuel pump (044?) as a starting point before EFI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clutch-monkey Posted 26August, 2014 Report Share Posted 26August, 2014 Did you do anything to correct the lean condition Clutch? I'm thinking WUR,fuel pump (044?) as a starting point before EFI. honestly i don't understand the CIS style systems at all, don simply adjusted it. it now runs a teeny touch rich but obviously safer. didn't seem to be a big deal to adjust? it's been like that since- i haven't played with turbo's much in general- gonna be following this thread pretty much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott930 Posted 26August, 2014 Report Share Posted 26August, 2014 At 110kph my Tach is sitting bang on 3,200 RPM in 4th and that just felt to me like more revs than the factory would of placed the car at. I sent OZ930 an SMS asking what his car sat at and he thought it was around 2,400RPM in 4th. Mine is ~2300rpm in 4th at 110kph, 3200rpm is closer to my 3rd gear at 110. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted 26August, 2014 Author Report Share Posted 26August, 2014 Seems it's a safe bet then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted 26August, 2014 Report Share Posted 26August, 2014 honestly i don't understand the CIS style systems at all, don simply adjusted it. it now runs a teeny touch rich but obviously safer. didn't seem to be a big deal to adjust? it's been like that since- i haven't played with turbo's much in general- gonna be following this thread pretty much yeah there's an Allen Key to do idle and mixtures. I think as they get older and leaky-er the more fuel you can get in to make up for the extra air the better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlatSix Posted 27August, 2014 Report Share Posted 27August, 2014 I'm not sure what speeds you get but will this have a negative effect at the Snowy Mountains 1000? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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