Above and beyond help needed for 944... Sydney, C/Coast, Newcastle

[Dreamr]

Hi All,

For those that have and those that haven't been following our journey, heres a quick catch-up.

My son, Brandon (Dr3amrJr) saved up and bought his first car, a 1986 /1987 Porsche 944. It is an Australian delivered, matching numbers example.  We flew up to Brisbane and road tripped it back.

We have tinkered with it somewhat and amongst other things had the air con re gassed and boy is it now cold. Obviously someone, somewhere has spent some time and money getting this thing to work properly.

I have organised a spraypainter friend to do a glass out respray so that by the time he gets his licence, it will be the schmickest 944 for him to be proud of. My only condition to him was that before we start spending money on it, we need to get an API .... (that is the cousin to a PPI ....."after purchase inspection")

The report came back with a few non urgent issues, such as hoses and rubbers, but also one issue that has me considering if we should continue our journey with this particular car ...... this is where hopefully someone can help us out.

It came back with a couple of oil leaks (which we knew about when we bought it) but the unfortunate surprise is that it has low compression in one cylinder ..... it is thought to be the rings on cylinder number 3 ...

Normally, this wouldn't be such a big issue, and if it was to be a Sunday driver I would probably not even mention it. But as this is to be a "P platers" car, it will get used more like a taxi and would go down hill and deteriorate much faster.

For us to continue this journey with this particular car, we are staring down the barrel of an engine rebuild. I know this may sound extreme with the compression down in only 1 cylinder, but over the course of not too much time, it will eventually come to a point where it will have to be done. As the mechanical knowledge around here doesn't extend too far from the basics, it would need to be a check-book rebuild which neither Brandon or myself could afford to have done. This is now a case of having to be proactive rather than reactive.

So ..... what I am hoping for and asking for is that there is someone out there that has the mechanical knowledge and is willing to donate their time to tackle this rebuild with / for us.

You may be retired with time on your hands, or simply willing / able to help ..... either way, I'll take it  

Now, it is worth mentioning that this car was not bought for financial gain or with the hope that it will increase in value in leaps and bounds ..... it was bought to be driven by young boy who got the Porsche bug after attending some shows and drives with his old man. I have prepared Brandon that it will need to be sold if the work needed cannot be done. I can tell you all that I am definitely not the flavor of the month at the moment, but this is also the reality of life and is part of the journey of car ownership (especially old cars) 

I can also tell you all that I know I am asking a lot from people that I don't really know ..... but I feel that it is for the right reasons. As a dad, I need to explore every avenue that is available, and if it means asking over and above from complete strangers, then so be it ..... I'm asking.

I know, and have taught the kids that nothing in life is free ..... so if you need your lawns done for the next 5 years, Brandon is your boy! .......

Any and all help would be more than appreciated .......

Ronny ......

[P-Kay]

That's a bugger Ronny and obviously heart wrenching for your son  

The only advise I can offer is to have a leak down test done which will determine where the compression is being lost. You may be 'lucky' and it has a burnt valve and therefore you will only be up for less rather than more. ie, valve regrind at best and top end gasket kit. This is using the consideration of cheapest possible for now approach.

Sorry mate, but you're too far from me  

[Timm]

+1 on the leakdown test to confirm it's the rings and not something in the head.

Having just finished a complete rebuild of my 951 engine, I can say that it is a very big task. Be prepared to have the car off the road for a couple of months, especially if it is getting done at home in your spare time. You also need to have lots of room, and a really clean area to reassemble the engine without getting a single spec of dust or dirt in it. I took my engine out and dissembled it in the garage,  but I assembled the long block in my living room.

Another option is to find another 944 engine that is in good condition and swap it in.

[ANF]

That's a bummer! Can you forgo the re-spray and what ever funds that needed divert them into an engine rebuild as needed/ required?

[MFX]

 

Another option is to find another 944 engine that is in good condition and swap it in.

+1. Find another engine and swap it in. That has got to be the cheapest and easiest option. You can always bench the engine and rebuild it at a later date as a father son project.

[Dreamr]

Thanks for all the replies guys .....

What I know so far is that it's most likely the rings in the 3rd cylinder ..... a leak down test is a good idea and will probably be the next port of call. 

I have already thought about replacing the engine (keeping the original), but it would be leaning towards being cost prohibitive and still leaving us with a mountain of work. I would also worry about it coming with its own set of unforseen problems.

I guess the reason I'm opting for a rebuild is so that we know the costs and they are paid only once.

That's a bummer! Can you forgo the re-spray and what ever funds that needed divert them into an engine rebuild as needed/ required?

Unfortunately a check book rebuild is still going to set us back between 2 - 3 times what the respray will ...... it then becomes a issue that I don't have that kind of coin to spend on the car, and it would really become a case over capitalising.

If we can't get the work done, it would be better off going to someon that was OK using it for a weekend car. It drives perfectly as it is. It just needs paint.

I'm just looking into the future and foreseeing that it will need doing if used as a daily by a P plater.....

[LeeM]

  Engine fixed first, Paint later is my 2 cents, as bodywork can be a bitch when you start stripping it off, only to find problems you hadn't thought were there

[ANF]

  Engine fixed first, Paint later is my 2 cents, as bodywork can be a bitch when you start stripping it off, only to find problems you hadn't thought were there

Have to agree, and no offence intended, but a P plate driver first up is more likely to rub a few panels while still learning. I understand that taking the car off the road later to fix the paint can be an issue....

Do you have a quote to fix it?

[Dreamr]

Do you have a quote to fix it?

Local Porsche independent has indicated between  $10k - $15k for a full rebuild. Most of it is the labour content.

Hell, the car didn't even cost us that much.

It seem to be a case that these older cars are becoming cost prohibitive to keep on the road.

At the end of the day, I have to keep in mind that it is only a first car for him and it wouldn't make any sense to spend the equivalent of a brand new car on it.

[tazzieman]

Hmmm...these are pretty robust engines , how many ks on it?

Agree with others ; find a good used engine and swap it in. Do the clutch at the same time if it's old.

There are certainly going to be expenses and with the driver under 21 , insurance XS issues. He would have to drive very cautiously.

Is it realistically a 1st car?

[Stardust]

I wanted to do the same thing for my kids - I thought a good 944 would fit the bill just as you had.

I went to the guys at PR Tech and asked them about what car they thought best (maybe even an old Boxster) for a learner with manageable upkeep.

They said:

"Get an old Merc".

[tazzieman]

 

"Get an old Merc".

There is old..and there is old , with old twin carbs...well that's some fun I can assure you
There are many many 80s and 90s Mercs out there , all fixeable, with Merc parts prices  right up there with Porsche prices.
The entry price ensures plenty of spare cash for routine stuff but NOT engine rebuilds 
Of course old Mercs aren't cool are they? A young Porschephile wants a Porsche after all.

[ANF]

Local Porsche independent has indicated between  $10k - $15k for a full rebuild. Most of it is the labour content.

Hell, the car didn't even cost us that much.

It seem to be a case that these older cars are becoming cost prohibitive to keep on the road.

At the end of the day, I have to keep in mind that it is only a first car for him and it wouldn't make any sense to spend the equivalent of a brand new car on it.

Ok so that is a lot. Do you and your son have the time to slowly learn what to do by patiently pulling it apart (some tools will be needed son some $$ there), it may be a good way top learn? Take it to the machine shop for anything that needs machining etc. Even taking the engine out and stripping it could save you lots. Worth thinking about if you have the time and patience for it? I imagine most of us had to learn sometime, and many by trying it and see. It is certainly something that I would tackle myself.

I would have to agree with the old Merc (I have had both 60s and 90s and neither cost a fortune to run) as a first car with one caveat, watch out for rust!! Entry price is cheap! Parts can be sourced so it does not bankrupt you, but again you need to do a lot of the maintenance yourself to make it viable $$$ wise.

[Timm]

I'd say if you want a relatively cheap and easy to maintain old sports car, you need to look at something Japanese...but if a Porsche is the only choice, then you're gonna need a good job or start getting your hands dirty

 

[tazzieman]

I'd say if you want a relatively cheap and easy to maintain old sports car, you need to look at something Japanese...but if a Porsche is the only choice, then you're gonna need a good job or start getting your hands dirty

Perhaps the horse has bolted a bit here , but a 924 is a good first proposition.

[Pauly]

Hey Ronny,

I too, had (still have) a 944 for my first car. Although it was a turbo and slightly modded ect, but bought it when i was 17. dad and i cleaned it up and I'm 24 still driving it. Although with the extended list of modifications it's now a weekender. Though out the years i've only had 1 dent put in it, and i have no idea how it got there (rear above the tail light)

Anyway, The engines are pretty reliable if looked after. The engine can look overwhelming as there's a lot bolted to it. But i think also might be easier to swap another in if it's that bad and slowly rebuild the original one. If i was in that area i'd have no problem giving a hand as i've rebuilt mine from the ground up. 

http://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Parts/ERK924S-944S-944.html
You can buy a whole rebuild kit here. These guys are quite reliable with sending parts down. 
When you select the brands for the bearings and rings. For the bearings, Select the aftermarket Glyco bearings as they're the same bearings as porsche supply just with out the part number. But purchase OEM Porsche rings or Goetz rings. The LR rings need to be gapped. 

When the engine is out. Check the clutch and maybe replace it. Because a clutch job is probably an 8-12 hour job. 

Engine removal:

http://www.clarks-garage.com/pdf-manual/eng-01.pdf

 

Hope that helps  

[LeeM]

  I don't mean to fill your head full of bad thoughts, yet that's a LOT of cash to rebuild the engine. I'd be ringing around personally. Sourcing parts yourself is no doubt cheaper, though I'm sure most shops would only offer a warranty on labour, not parts.

 If after you get a compression test (do that yourself if you can source a tester.Think I've got one I can send up to you) and its a nominal drop in one cylinder, its not using oil or blowing smoke, I'd not worry about it to be honest. Just drive the thing until you have the readies to get it fixed, then remove the engine yourself.  I'm sure some PFA members would be happy to lend a hand in retiurn for a few snags and beers

[BJM]

Dreamr if it drives fine now why worry about the rebuild just now?

Don't do the paint job & start saving.

Do some courses to learn some basic mechanical skills if you have to. Good idea for a young fella anyway.

Then when it comes time to do the rebuild, say two years time, you can do some of the labor by getting the motor out. Maybe send the head off to get machined & get the rest done somewhere else. Might help keep the cost down. 

How long before you get your Licence anyway Jr?

You have some time.

Now that would be a cool journey rather than just selling. 

[tazzieman]

http://www.pro-9.co.uk/mechanical-and-engine-rebuild-prices

$AUD4000 , + freight + install (but have to buy a knackered one first)

 

Used http://www.ebay.com/itm/85-5-88-PORSCHE-944-2-5L-N-A-ENGINE-MOTOR-ASSEMBLY-W-HARNESS-COMPLETE-/291823546253

 

[911oclock]

Dreamr if it drives fine now why worry about the rebuild just now?

Don't do the paint job & start saving.

Do some courses to learn some basic mechanical skills if you have to. Good idea for a young fella anyway.

Then when it comes time to do the rebuild, say two years time, you can do some of the labor by getting the motor out. Maybe send the head off to get machined & get the rest done somewhere else. Might help keep the cost down. 

How long before you get your Licence anyway Jr?

You have some time.

Now that would be a cool journey rather than just selling. 

+1!

[Joshstix]

How low is the compression in the problem cylinder?

 

If its not super low I'd say it leave it as is.  Needing to be a bit gentle so as to not blow up your first car could be a good thing for a P plater.  then once he has some experience and is getting sick of how slow the 944 is it would be great fun to stuff an LS2 or something similar into it.

[Diamond911]

(but have to buy a knackered one first)

here's a knackered one...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/944-porsche-motor-/152261620502?hash=item23737ff316:g:0IgAAOSwxg5X032t

+1 to BJM's suggestion

Dreamr if it drives fine now why worry about the rebuild just now?

Don't do the paint job & start saving.

Do some courses to learn some basic mechanical skills if you have to. Good idea for a young fella anyway.

Then when it comes time to do the rebuild, say two years time, you can do some of the labor by getting the motor out. Maybe send the head off to get machined & get the rest done somewhere else. Might help keep the cost down. 

How long before you get your Licence anyway Jr?

You have some time.

Now that would be a cool journey rather than just selling. 

 

[OZ930]

How low is number 3 cylinder? Is it within spec? Just out?

[Peter M]

Dreamr

Im with the others - stop, take a deep breath and don't panic just yet.

I suggest you drive it for a few months to establish if it uses excessive oil and/or its excessively pressurising the crankcase.  Once you have some firmer data make a decision then.

Also be aware that compression tests  are an indicator only and I wouldn't solely rely on this alone to assess engine condition.

Can you post the actual pressures recorded both pre and post oiling please?

Also how many km on the engine and what oil consumption/1000km is it using?

[Dreamr]

Thanks all for your replies ..... I will try and answer all of the  queries.

The reason I wanted to do the rebuild route is that if we decide to keep it it is a cost that WILL be incucurred either sooner or later. Unfortunately, if it has to be a cheque book rebuild, this is a cost that will tip the ownership one way or the other. I'm aware that anything and everything can be fixed, but the cost factor is something that has to be considered.

It will be far to easy to way over capitalise and that is something I'm not prepared to do as a first car for a 16 year old.

Dreamr if it drives fine now why worry about the rebuild just now?

Don't do the paint job & start saving.

Do some courses to learn some basic mechanical skills if you have to. Good idea for a young fella anyway.

Then when it comes time to do the rebuild, say two years time, you can do some of the labor by getting the motor out. Maybe send the head off to get machined & get the rest done somewhere else. Might help keep the cost down. 

How long before you get your Licence anyway Jr?

You have some time.

Now that would be a cool journey rather than just selling. 

As I wrote above Billy ..... it would just need to much momey thrown at it to justify the work.

 

How low is number 3 cylinder? Is it within spec? Just out?

Cylinder 1, 2 and 4 = 185psi

Cylinder 3 = 160 psi

I was told that when oil was put in the cylinder, the compression came good ..... apparently this means that the rings or bore are the culprit.

 

Dreamr

Im with the others - stop, take a deep breath and don't panic just yet.

I suggest you drive it for a few months to establish if it uses excessive oil and/or its excessively pressurising the crankcase.  Once you have some firmer data make a decision then.

Also be aware that compression tests  are an indicator only and I wouldn't solely rely on this alone to assess engine condition.

Can you post the actual pressures recorded both pre and post oiling please?

Also how many km on the engine and what oil consumption/1000km is it using?

Peter ..... unfortuately the car suffers from  the dreaded "broken odometer gear" so realistically, I dont know how many k's. It currently shows 169,000. Could be anywhere above that.

 

While I realise that wanting to do a rebuild is an extreme measure, it has to be remembered that it's not going to be used as an occasional Sunday cruiser. It will be used as a taxi.

It currently drives perfectly and can be used as is. What I can't quantify is spending money on an engine rebuild, either now or later on. I am happy to replace consumables and keep the car maintained for daily use. Having to spend $5k - $15k either buying another engine, or rebuilding this one is just something I can't justify. By the time all of that work is done, then the cost of the clutch, then the cost of the other maintenance items, we could be staring down the barrel of a $20k - $25k bill (assuming a shop does the work)

My thoughts behind asking for help to rebuild is that for the cost of seals, gaskets, rings, etc. I can wear that $3k - $4k cost on his behalf in order for his car to be reliable and and to stay on the road. To just sell the car is not ideal, but the chances are that it will become cost prohibitive, forcing the sale anyway.

I understand and appreciate all of the above suggestions ..... please keep them coming.