Help me choose 996tt or 997.1 C4S

[Thommo66]

I need help in decision making please.

After many months of research and doing carsales to death and driving a number of cars I feel like I've settled on a decision between getting a '01 996tt or a ' 06  C4S 997.1 both manual.

I have driven both. And both great in their own way.

This is my first P.  Key buying criteria / considerations:

• fun fun fun ... first and foremost
• not to race but may do the odd club day if I get a chance to do Philip Island or something like it and actually get to learn to drive the car properly 
• will not be a dd ... 80% of time in the garage ... mostly w'ender 
• notwithstanding PPI's hope to encounter minimal going MA and nasty surprise costs
• future re-sale value protection would be a bonus but it is definitely fun before investment as priority
• I have always thought that the most beautiful P is the 993 and was initially turned off the 996tt because of the fried egg headlights but have reconsidered since then given pure thrills of the 996tt and reputation of the engine
• budget is up to 115k

Any suggestions and opinions for those of you have been down this well trodden path would be much appreciated.

 

 

 

[Jason A]

No Brainer, go for the TT. Do some research on the drive train on both cars.

if you have a manual 996 TT lined up with reasonable ks for that budget, buy it - it won't be around for long.

997 still on the way down price wise. Just my opinion, good luck

[bear924]

I personally find the 996 more interesting and would be the first one I'd 'check out' if they pulled up together. The 997 is NA which may actually make it more unique as 'turbo' 911s become the norm.  Keen to hear what you decide and your reasons why. At the end of the day there really is no wrong decision as each car has plusses and minuses. 

[hugh]

+1 996TT 

[DJM]

+1 996TT - they are a weapon stock, ballistic with a few subtle mods.  And very usable wet or dry.  Values have been stable for some time so buy a good one and you should be right.

[TrevMcRev]

The TT will always be a special car.

In a few more years the 997 will just be the same as a nonTT 996 is to you now. 

[Philbee]

The TT will always be a special car.

In a few more years the 997 will just be the same as a nonTT 996 is to you now. 

agree, what he said 

[smit2100]

I need help in decision making please.

After many months of research and doing carsales to death and driving a number of cars I feel like I've settled on a decision between getting a '01 996tt or a ' 06  C4S 997.1 both manual.

I have driven both. And both great in their own way.

This is my first P.  Key buying criteria / considerations:

• fun fun fun ... first and foremost
• not to race but may do the odd club day if I get a chance to do Philip Island or something like it and actually get to learn to drive the car properly 
• will not be a dd ... 80% of time in the garage ... mostly w'ender 
• notwithstanding PPI's hope to encounter minimal going MA and nasty surprise costs
• future re-sale value protection would be a bonus but it is definitely fun before investment as priority
• I have always thought that the most beautiful P is the 993 and was initially turned off the 996tt because of the fried egg headlights but have reconsidered since then given pure thrills of the 996tt and reputation of the engine
• budget is up to 115k

Any suggestions and opinions for those of you have been down this well trodden path would be much appreciated.

 

 

 

I'm a  boost junky who is a 996TT owner, so silly question if your focused on fun. But objectively, in the context of not being a daily and when your behind the wheel, if you did an X chart of pro's and con's, where does the 997 4CS have it over 996TT.  i.e which criteria box/s are you ticking for the 997 C4S over the 996TT based on your research and your butt dyno experience thus far.

Did you drive a stock 2001 996tt or tweaked? 

Only P car I have driven / owned is a 996TT. In terms of suggestions / opinions on the 996TT, hands down one of the best cars that responds to modifications in terms of bang for buck to give you something that is a jack of all trades based on my research.    Based on first hand experience thus far, as others have noted above they are a weapon stock (but only above a certain rpm as I see it) . Below a certain rpm not that impressive (laggy and not exactly an insta booster out of the box from a butt dyno perspective if your coming from smaller turbo's) but I assume a 996tt has just as much punch down low putting lag aside compared to a 997 C4S.   But also as noted, a few subtle mods (more like must do's as I see it) such as exhaust  and tune and any 997 variant of a shifter mechanism, new 997 engine mounts (if can't stomach 964 rs semi solid ones) / 997 trannny mounts  and they transform the driveability compared to stock.  In my case, forget the circa extra 80hp/80ftlb tq you may get see from the above mods, the throttle response across the entire rev range just makes it a much much better car to drive in vacuum or boost and you should also get a better shift feel. Big and noticeable difference going from stock to exhaust to stage 1 OTS tune to stage 2 OTS tune. 

Just a view but a series 2 (preferable 2003 plus) is a better car to have.  Eg Better chassis, better stock rims and the addition of a glove box ain't that much more extra weight and better resale value.

I think you are spot on with your budget of 115k (but go a series 2), but may need to spend a little bit more to tweak, eg MUST fit in those tweaks mentioned that may take you to 120k.  If not into more tweaking than mentioned (I'm no fan of stock k16 turbo's) and / or will end up spending more than 120k, I reckon better to find some extra coin to step into a 997.  997TT with a tune that is. 

Suppose you get your hands on a stock 996 turbo, and moons are aligned, happy to give you a back to back of your stock vs my tweaked so I can ask you so what do you think?

 

[BJM]

996tt everyday of the week for me.

It's pretty much a super car & will always be. One of my all time favourites.

The 997 C4S, whilst a great car in its own right, in my opinion won't be as special in the future. 

[Damienb]

This 'postal vote' is looking decidedly lopsided. 996TT for me too.

[Thommo66]

I'm a  boost junky who is a 996TT owner, so silly question if your focused on fun. But objectively, in the context of not being a daily and when your behind the wheel, if you did an X chart of pro's and con's, where does the 997 4CS have it over 996TT.  i.e which criteria box/s are you ticking for the 997 C4S over the 996TT based on your research and your butt dyno experience thus far.

Did you drive a stock 2001 996tt or tweaked? 

Only P car I have driven / owned is a 996TT. In terms of suggestions / opinions on the 996TT, hands down one of the best cars that responds to modifications in terms of bang for buck to give you something that is a jack of all trades based on my research.    Based on first hand experience thus far, as others have noted above they are a weapon stock (but only above a certain rpm as I see it) . Below a certain rpm not that impressive (laggy and not exactly an insta booster out of the box from a butt dyno perspective if your coming from smaller turbo's) but I assume a 996tt has just as much punch down low putting lag aside compared to a 997 C4S.   But also as noted, a few subtle mods (more like must do's as I see it) such as exhaust  and tune and any 997 variant of a shifter mechanism, new 997 engine mounts (if can't stomach 964 rs semi solid ones) / 997 trannny mounts  and they transform the driveability compared to stock.  In my case, forget the circa extra 80hp/80ftlb tq you may get see from the above mods, the throttle response across the entire rev range just makes it a much much better car to drive in vacuum or boost and you should also get a better shift feel. Big and noticeable difference going from stock to exhaust to stage 1 OTS tune to stage 2 OTS tune. 

Just a view but a series 2 (preferable 2003 plus) is a better car to have.  Eg Better chassis, better stock rims and the addition of a glove box ain't that much more extra weight and better resale value.

I think you are spot on with your budget of 115k (but go a series 2), but may need to spend a little bit more to tweak, eg MUST fit in those tweaks mentioned that may take you to 120k.  If not into more tweaking than mentioned (I'm no fan of stock k16 turbo's) and / or will end up spending more than 120k, I reckon better to find some extra coin to step into a 997.  997TT with a tune that is. 

Suppose you get your hands on a stock 996 turbo, and moons are aligned, happy to give you a back to back of your stock vs my tweaked so I can ask you so what do you think?

 

Thanks for all of the responses.  

As Smit2100 has stated the response is resoundingly 1 sided to the 996tt

Which ironically as bizarre as it sounds is making my decision harder given I drove the 997 again yesterday and had a blast.  

Being a Jan 2006 delivery into Oz with 106kms already on the clock I have been concerned about the IMS bearing stories even though it is a 3.8 litre. Although doing some research on a Hamilton's post on this topic about engine numbers it appears as though this specific car ( # 68606844 ) has the revised larger bearing which may lower the risk.

Notwithstanding if I go ahead to buying I will get a PPI done at Porsche Melb and my expectations is that this should uncover any potential issues with compression, over revs, clutch, IMS etc.

The 997 feels like a really tighter handling and certainly more aesthetically pleasing on the eye P.  Also newer more comfortable cabin etc. although the knobs on the sat/nav system etc look pretty grimy with use already.  Overall with everything checked out it feels like I would be very happy in this as my first P with enough thrills being a manual to cater for my rookie driving capabilities. It's not as though I am likely to be getting anywhere close to setting any records at any tracks.

Having said all of the above - there is still a nagging voice that as far as pure thrills go the turbo would be a good buy with a rock solid engine and major adrenaline rushes.  And of course seconded by pretty much ALL of you in your responses.  

So, the way I feel now is that there is no bad decision here.  It may be a case of playing it forward in my minds eye on if I pulled up at the lights in either one and then saw the other one next to me whether there would be any hint of a pang of regret.  Should have got that one ! 

cheers for all of the guidance.

 

[Coastr]

No question 996tt - anything mezger engined will be ore reliable and more valuable over time.

If the headlights are an issue see the recently released covers which result in a 993/997 oval shape.  But I think they look fine and are ageing well, particularly the gt3 and tt.

[MFX]

I can see why you are attracted to the 997, as the interior is a BIG step up in the looks department IMO. I would still go for the TT though, as I am pretty confident the TT will be double the price of the 997 in just a couple of years...

[Pokiou]

why are we event talking, go get the TT... that car still whoops asses left right center today! very strong gearbox and drivetrain. 

 

[DJM]

Thanks for all of the responses.  

As Smit2100 has stated the response is resoundingly 1 sided to the 996tt

Which ironically as bizarre as it sounds is making my decision harder given I drove the 997 again yesterday and had a blast.  

Being a Jan 2006 delivery into Oz with 106kms already on the clock I have been concerned about the IMS bearing stories even though it is a 3.8 litre. Although doing some research on a Hamilton's post on this topic about engine numbers it appears as though this specific car ( # 68606844 ) has the revised larger bearing which may lower the risk.

Notwithstanding if I go ahead to buying I will get a PPI done at Porsche Melb and my expectations is that this should uncover any potential issues with compression, over revs, clutch, IMS etc.

The 997 feels like a really tighter handling and certainly more aesthetically pleasing on the eye P.  Also newer more comfortable cabin etc. although the knobs on the sat/nav system etc look pretty grimy with use already.  Overall with everything checked out it feels like I would be very happy in this as my first P with enough thrills being a manual to cater for my rookie driving capabilities. It's not as though I am likely to be getting anywhere close to setting any records at any tracks.

Having said all of the above - there is still a nagging voice that as far as pure thrills go the turbo would be a good buy with a rock solid engine and major adrenaline rushes.  And of course seconded by pretty much ALL of you in your responses.  

So, the way I feel now is that there is no bad decision here.  It may be a case of playing it forward in my minds eye on if I pulled up at the lights in either one and then saw the other one next to me whether there would be any hint of a pang of regret.  Should have got that one ! 

cheers for all of the guidance.

 

997 knobs going soft and gooey is common, just replace the knobs.  

sounds like you've answered your own question - TT is widely considered the "better" car but it's all relative to YOUR criteria for a car.  If aesthetics, interior aesthetics are important then 997 wins.  And if you don't desire TT performance and you're not chasing a financial return on the car, then the 997 is probably the better fit FOR YOU.  Go with your gut I say.

oh, and there's also the potential of conrod failure with modified turbo mezger engines.  While it is not particularly common, it's a VERY expensive fix if you're unlucky enough to suffer that fate, as I did with my 996 GT2....and given you are likely to need a replacement crankcase following a rod punching for freedom, you end up with a non matching numbers car which is like leprosy in the P car market.

[hugh]

http://www.speedhunters.com/2016/03/project-996-turbo-german-muscle/

 

[Thommo66]

Thanks all for responses and guidance.  

Can somebody provide me some insight into current 997 pricing levels - " fair market value " for 997.1 and 997.2 aside from what I can find myself just looking at carsales.

ie. assuming PPI and " good condition " is a constant.  On these variables below ( I may be missing something ?? ): 

1. Base model Carerra vs S,
2. CS vs C4S
3.  50-100kms vs 100 - 150kms,
4. auto vs manual 

[t888]

Thanks all for responses and guidance.  

Can somebody provide me some insight into current 997 pricing levels - " fair market value " for 997.1 and 997.2 aside from what I can find myself just looking at carsales.

ie. assuming PPI and " good condition " is a constant.  On these variables below ( I may be missing something ?? ): 

1. Base model Carerra vs S,
2. CS vs C4S
3.  50-100kms vs 100 - 150kms,
4. auto vs manual 

1. base model is about 5-10k discount from 'S'. 

2. C4S about 10-15k premium in list price.

3.  prices dip substantially after around 110k kms. likewise less than ~ 50k attracts a big premium. 

4. auto about 10k less than manual for 997.1. For the 997.2 the volume is lower so it's a bit harder to say. In the latter case manuals are much rarer.

997.1 spread between 70k - ~110k. 997.2 spread between 95k - ~160k.  both continue to depreciate slowly for most models (ignoring inflation, servicing costs, cost of finance etc) at a rate of about 5k a year. What seems to have happened with the 996's is that manual coupes have plateaued out in price while everything else depreciates and i think similar will happen with the 997.

the 997.2 is a more desirable car however at the higher price ranges it competes against 991's, and 997.1 turbo, 981 cayman s, etc.

981 boxsters are now being listed in the 70's and i think would tempt some potential 997.1 buyers, given the looks, reliable engine and porsche warranty etc.

[Fraz]

 

http://www.speedhunters.com/2016/03/project-996-turbo-german-muscle/

 

Hugh, why do you do this to me. 

https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Porsche-911-Carrera-2002/SSE-AD-4969370

This sweet thing might worth a look and save a few bucks.

 

[Ozvino]

 

Hugh, why do you do this to me. 

https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Porsche-911-Carrera-2002/SSE-AD-4969370

This sweet thing might worth a look and save a few bucks.

 

mechanical condition unknown but it has been washed on a regular basis........

[09ELF]

A like for like condition comparison (similiar kms and manual), I would say the 996TT is probably at least a 20% premium over the 997.1 and priced closer to the 997.2.

If budget permits, the 996TT would be the car.

 

 

[Thommo66]

t888 thank you for your guidance on pricing. Very helpful !

Fraz - thanks for your suggestion.  Nice looking car/bodykit at a different price bracket. Worthy of consideration.

The latest chapter is that I had a PPI done with Porsche Melb on the 997 I was keen on and it has been in an accident at some stage.  Best $ I've spent notwithstanding disappointment and a pain in the arse (and wallet ! )

This is the 996tt that has been the watching brief.  Originally listed at $129,500 around a month ago.

Any educated views on what you think it's worth ?   Nobody has snapped it up yet so it's either still overpriced or something else I'm missing ??

https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/_/SSE-AD-4933332?_ga=2.240303808.2119548190.1505381752-1881507069.1473426336

[bear924]

I follow the 996 turbo market relatively lightly, however to my mind $120k is towards the higher end of manual 996 Ts. My belief is that you would be better to purchase a fully sorted 996T over trying to save a few $ on the purchase price, and if this car was in very good condition the price is possibly warranted. At this price point I anticipate you'd be able to get a 996T with no issue, full service history etc.. so if this isn't the case with this car I'd move on. I also don't like the 'ruffled' seats however this is only a personal preference. 

[smit2100]

t888 thank you for your guidance on pricing. Very helpful !

Fraz - thanks for your suggestion.  Nice looking car/bodykit at a different price bracket. Worthy of consideration.

The latest chapter is that I had a PPI done with Porsche Melb on the 997 I was keen on and it has been in an accident at some stage.  Best $ I've spent notwithstanding disappointment and a pain in the arse (and wallet ! )

This is the 996tt that has been the watching brief.  Originally listed at $129,500 around a month ago.

Any educated views on what you think it's worth ?   Nobody has snapped it up yet so it's either still overpriced or something else I'm missing ??

https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/_/SSE-AD-4933332?_ga=2.240303808.2119548190.1505381752-1881507069.1473426336

Just a view, but as an educated guess,, based on seeing bugger all 996tt manuals that have  come up and worthy of picking up  based on initial advertised pricing (particularly if you have a thing about being under 100k km travelled) for quite some time, my educated guess is as a baseline, $110k for a series 1 996tt manual (stock or lightly modded eg tune / exhaust ) on the right side of 100km's, decent service history supported by stamps  and it having a very clean PPI (inclusive of compression and leakdown test).  is about the mark where you may see some value   I would treat advertised prices as no more than a guide and what looks like a big/ tempting drop of say 10k and it not being snapped up immediately is a sign that it may have been over priced initially and perhaps even now.   

I can have an eye for detail at times if it comes to numbers.  Heres something for general discussion if you perhaps have a keen eye on the numbers / does info provided in the advertisement match the puffery of words in the advertisement .

I will disclose that I am getting a bit toey (have a shite load of parts ready to go except of two key ones) with not having a service stamp in the books for just on over 12 months from the last and racking up about 2000km in that time frame from its lasts major service at PCM. 

Perhaps I'm misreading the stamps in the maintenance book or suffering from some missing (some receipts in between stamps) info not disclosed or am I bit dyslexic / over the top on when I get my cars serviced and particularly with my first P car, BUT

Does the following stamp action, align with "Well Maintained"  or I am being a bit harsh and OTT on stamps and who provided the stamp  are not the be all and end all. (Note  didn't see receipts come into play in  the ad)

Does 69409km  = serviced on 6/9/13 + 81867 = serviced on 7-11-2016 + 83900 and climbing as at 15 September constitute well maintained in the mezger 996tt world.  Or Are Mezgers / 996 tt's  that bullet proof, eg 4 years, travelled approximately 14500, two known services only.  Just  a view, but with 119k of coins ready to be dropped, I'd be interested in hearing the answer to besides the two services done in the last 4 years, any other coin been spent on maintaining the car to support the "well maintained claim".

Yes, looks like the car advertised has been well used like mine over the last 12 months

 

 

 

 

[Jason A]

Good to see you are back on the TT train. People sometimes have multiple cars, put cars in storage for periods, take overseas work etc.  Chat with the owner, do the PPI etc and base the decision on facts.

I can remember looking at Bowdens GTHO Phase 3 many years ago and hearing the old mans story of how the bought it in Adelaide ( which they snipped) becuse the GT fraternity was worried about the cigarette lighter being incorrect, etc

The vin number says it was Moffat's race car - I am sure they have done OK.

A 996 TT will only go up over time - if the car is on the whole OK, is a good deal and you like it - buy it and enjoy.

If you are buying a 997, I would be far more careful - to minimise the damage on the amount of money you WILL loose.

Good luck