Air cooled 911 model comparison

[35SIXXX]

G’Day Guys,

I’m looking for my first 911 project and are looking for opinions on what’s more desirable out of a few cars I’ve found.

i want to build a 901 (or 901 look), with good performance (3.6 motor) and a bit of a hotrod look.

It must be a coupe, and it must be RHD.

The car would be a long term project with no intention of ever selling it, however I do need to consider its value in case I want to move onto something else at some point.

Because I’m looking for a “project” it’s impossible to compare one Car to the next as they’re so different... and also very difficult for me to judge what they’re worth as there’s nothing to compare them too.

The two cars I’m currently considering are:

 

1. 69 import that’s been converted to RHD. Complete car minus engine and box. 
Has been converted to 964 Turbo look. 
Don’t know what country it was originally delivered to (can find out), but it’s been here for 20ish years. 
body looks fine, but it was painted many years ago. 
964 interior installed, but it looks very rough, and will need to be stripped and redone. 
No decent documentation with the car other than import docs. 
It’s a wide body which I like, but will need new front end and rear bumper to take it back to a 69 901 look.
 

2. 1976 Carrera. Another import, but this car was a factory RHD car. 

The car is “complete”, although is currently stripped to a bare shell and on a rotisserie. 
The body looks to be in exceptional condition, however it’s in primer, so there is a risk that it’s actually not great under the paint. It does look nearish to perfect though. 
narrow body. 
interior in average condition. 
Folders of documentation including original purchase docs, import approval, servicing, panel work receipts etc etc 

I can see benefits to both cars. I’m guessing most would suggest the 76 is the better option due to the paperwork that comes with it, but I’m guessing that a standard 76 isn’t anywhere near as desirable as a 69? Or has the 69 lost most of its value due to the wide 964 body kit on it?

Or if I modify either car, do their inherit values diminish anyway?

I should point out that car 2 has a higher price on it too.

Ultimately, I’d like to build them to a similar style to the two cars attached (wide or narrow look), but which one is the best starting point is the question... or perhaps neither are a good option?

Any opinions would be greatly appreciate.

cheers.

 

[Coastr]

The big question is what do you want?  If you want a long hood wide body then the 76 needs work.  The 69 may (does?) have rust hiding under the old repaint.  It was probably converted to 964 when a 69 was undesirable.

the 76 was at least partially galvanised form factory and has slightly better suspension but is also heavier.  And you’ll need to backdate which is not trivial.

For me I would be going over the 69 carefully and looking for rust.

[P-Kay]

In my opinion, you will over capitalize on both.

Both will need the longhood tub front end (one back to original the other backdate)

If you want wide body, find another car. If anything take the 69 back to original, then you may have a chance to come out even, perhaps ahead.

Personally, find a complete car that is already wide bodied, that way all the bolts and bits are already there and you are not spending countless hours searching and $$$

[LeeM]

 To me the '69 is the better option, as it's an original longhood and already converted, and by not mucking around with the body too much (or reversible modifications) you may come out on top value wise. It just depends how much cash you pour into it, as the value gap between a converted import and an Aussie delivered car is a pretty big gap. Still an attractive car to many who don't really care about it being an import though. 

 Re the '76. It's a narrow body, so keep it that way. If you want wide guards, ofcourse you can add them to it, but you'll devalue the car by doing so, so I'd be looking for a car like mine which is a factory RHD '78 SC from Hong Kong.

 I'm all for modifying 911's, yet personally you do have to draw the line at adding big Turbo flares or whatever to an original longhood unless you turn it into an ST replica or something period correct

[JLD]

I think it’ll be tough to get money back or make a profit on either car. A widebodied converted 69 hotrod will be fun, but with a 3.6 it will never be as valuable as an original. The 76 will always be the less desirable G series and again modded. 
 

the costs of this exercise will be a lot more than you may think, which is fine if you’re doing it for yourself as you said. But with what you want to do with either car you need to take the resale equation out.

[9er]

A 1976 Carrera 3.0 is a rare car, it would seem a waste to butcher it for your project.

[MR901]

Buy this one & convert the body to your tastes....my guess is that this car would cost 200-250k to build so at current pricing PLUS some cosmetics you're still in front. 

https://www.pcv.com.au/PorscheClubs/pc_victoria/pc_main.nsf/web/4158039B3489D8ACC125851B00317109#pagetop

Good luck with the project....

Cheers

[JV911]

10 hours ago, 35SIXXX said:

1976 Carrera. Another import, but this car was a factory RHD car. 

Carrera 3.0? If so, Id' be restoring that to near original with a hot motor and tasteful mods rather than backdating.

 

2 hours ago, MR901 said:

my guess is that this car would cost 200-250k

At a minimum

[hugh]

2 minutes ago, JV911 said:

Carrera 3.0? If so, Id' be restoring that to near original with a hot motor and tasteful mods rather than backdating.

+1. That would be my vote as well. 

Whilst you appear to have exceptional taste  (I'm the previous owner of the blue car), I will admit converted wide body early cars don't excite me. The blue car had RS flares on it when purchased by the previous owner but my intention long term would have been to revert that back to a narrow body. I just feel it suits the early cars better both aesthetically and also in terms of their driving dynamics.

Earlier 911 appeal to me is the narrow body, skinnier wheels/rubber and as a result they not require a lot of HP to be enjoyed and/or get the most out of them. 3.6L in an early chassis I would find is somewhat overwhelming, especially if it is only for street/road use. If not then then something like the IROC above would be your medicine.  

In relation to the grey car reference you've included, as much as I try to understand the appeal, builds like this just look odd to me. Keep it real would be my advice. 

[MFX]

I would probably go with the 69 car. It is already converted so it is never going to be worth what an original is. Documents are also not really important for the same reason. If the 76 is an original C3, it would be silly to butcher it as it is much more valuable as it is.

What engine/trans does it currently have because if you don't have a 3.6 they are becoming increasingly hard to find and expensive. Engine rebuilds are insanely expensive (it was MUCH cheaper to buy my Ferrari engine than it was to rebuild my 911's). 

My suggestion after spending a lot of time and money building a hotrod, is find something with a great drivetrain that is rough and then fix it up. Body work wise, a 911 is pretty much going to cost the same as any other car. Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive.

My 2c.

[LeeM]

34 minutes ago, hugh said:

 

Earlier 911 appeal to me is the narrow body, skinnier wheels/rubber and as a result they not require a lot of HP to be enjoyed  

 Yep 👍👍

[Skidmarks]

The IROC for sale is never going to be a sensible proposition as a road car.  I was involved in the build.  Its a great race/club car but on the road would be a nightmare.  It could be done but budget another 30 to make it sensible and able to get a RWC (and then check if the thing can actually be registered or put on club plates as not all can depending on previous reg status).

Either of the 69 or the 76 would be great but as said above, plug in at least 200K and much searching for parts.  And you wont see the car for 3 years.  

I'm with MFX.  Buy something that's got a solid mechanical base and then tune it up from there.

3.6 gives you pub cred but these cars are light and you can do (or buy) a great smaller capacity engine that puts out say 180-220 bhp on carbs with a nice set of ratios that will be as much if not more fun to drive.

For both cars you'd need to see whats there and then start assembling a parts list for each and once you've added that up and then seen someone about the labour to do it (good luck trying to lock anyone down on a number or time investment), you'll start searching for a good runner that needs love ... and if you're smart, you can drive it whilst making it your own.

 

[DJM]

9 hours ago, Skidmarks said:

plug in at least 200K and much searching for parts.  And you wont see the car for 3 years.  

and after all that you might get, what, $150k if you sell it?

sounds compelling.....not 😂. Buy someone else’s money pit if you can find one.

[35SIXXX]

Thanks for all the replies guys. Really interesting to hear different people’s thoughts on it. 
There’s no doubt that buying a complete car is the most economical approach, but the appeal with a car in pieces or incomplete is simply the cost to get into the project. I’m fine with spending 80-100k all up to make it how I want, so long as I can spend most of that money over a few years. 
I have a few other cars already and need to manage the better half also. Going out and spending 60-70k on a decent car that I will then modify is pretty difficult. 
I’ll  have a better read of the comments tomorrow and will no doubt have some more questions. 
Thanks again. 

[LeeM]

 @35SIXXX

To give you an idea of what you could do, this is my car below. A Hong Kong import (factory RHD) '78 SC I backdated myself early last year using cheap fibreglass backdating parts and an original hood from an SC a friend had made but surplus to his needs. It's not brilliant work by me, but it does the job, looks good and is a very good car to drive. All up this thing owes me $55k (I regularly get offers of $60-70k) as it sits including the purchase price 3 years ago (I sold all the original SC bumpers which paid for the backdate bits n bobs). You could find a decent running, driving, registered and complete RHD import for under $80k and do your mods/resto as you go like I did. Think the longest mine was off the road was 2 weeks (the rear end took me 2.5 hours to remove the bumper and fit the backdate one it's that easy).

 What I and others are trying to say is that you don't need to buy an utter money pit that will empty your bank account and have you hate the thing when you are incessantly spending money on it with the Porsche tax that is always added to parts and labour. If you have the patience, time, skills and money, and you want to do all that work, great,, go for it and enjoy the journey, yet if you want to get into a rolling resto like this one, I'd be looking around a bit harder at a complete car mate

[Peter M]

On 11/03/2020 at 12:44, MFX said:

IMy suggestion after spending a lot of time and money building a hotrod, is find something with a great drivetrain that is rough and then fix it up. Body work wise, a 911 is pretty much going to cost the same as any other car. Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive.

This guy knows.

Whenever you look at buying an aircooled 911 this is your mantra: "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive" etc.

[35SIXXX]

2 hours ago, Peter M said:

This guy knows.

Whenever you look at buying an aircooled 911 this is your mantra: "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive", "Mechanically, they are stupidly expensive" etc.

So are you saying they’re mechanically stupidly expensive?

[MFX]

1 hour ago, 35SIXXX said:

So are you saying they’re mechanically stupidly expensive?

I see in your rides you list Datsun. I just finished my 240z and the equivalent new mechanical parts for my 911 cost, without exaggeration, 10 times the price. 

The exotic car wrecker where I bought my Ferrari engine, had around 50 Exotic engines, and then gearboxes, brakes, panels and everything, from a 488 through to Lambo's, Maseratis, etc. I asked about air cooled 911's and he had nothing because he couldn't get any wrecks economically because the drive lines were worth more than the cars.

[35SIXXX]

1 hour ago, MFX said:

I see in your rides you list Datsun. I just finished my 240z and the equivalent new mechanical parts for my 911 cost, without exaggeration, 10 times the price. 

The exotic car wrecker where I bought my Ferrari engine, had around 50 Exotic engines, and then gearboxes, brakes, panels and everything, from a 488 through to Lambo's, Maseratis, etc. I asked about air cooled 911's and he had nothing because he couldn't get any wrecks economically because the drive lines were worth more than the cars.

Yeah, I posted some info on my 1600 on this site a few days back  

As for the cost of parts, am I right to think that it’s mainly maintenance type parts that are through the roof? Or used parts off wrecked cars?

From all the googling I’ve done over the last month or so, it seems that the upgrade type parts are expensive but not insanely so. Or At least don’t necessarily need to be. Of course I‘ve found lots of parts that are Just stupidly priced... but usually there’s good alternative that’s kind of acceptable, no?

As an example, a set of front camber adjustable strut tops can be found for $600ish, where a Datsun option can be anything from $150-$600. Front coilovers $2k-10k with plenty in between. Datsun options $800 - 3k.

regardless, I definitely love the idea of getting a complete car, but it just may not be an option for me right now.

 

14 hours ago, LeeM said:

 @35SIXXX

To give you an idea of what you could do, this is my car below. A Hong Kong import (factory RHD) '78 SC I backdated myself early last year using cheap fibreglass backdating parts and an original hood from an SC a friend had made but surplus to his needs. It's not brilliant work by me, but it does the job, looks good and is a very good car to drive. All up this thing owes me $55k (I regularly get offers of $60-70k) as it sits including the purchase price 3 years ago (I sold all the original SC bumpers which paid for the backdate bits n bobs). You could find a decent running, driving, registered and complete RHD import for under $80k and do your mods/resto as you go like I did. Think the longest mine was off the road was 2 weeks (the rear end took me 2.5 hours to remove the bumper and fit the backdate one it's that easy).

 What I and others are trying to say is that you don't need to buy an utter money pit that will empty your bank account and have you hate the thing when you are incessantly spending money on it with the Porsche tax that is always added to parts and labour. If you have the patience, time, skills and money, and you want to do all that work, great,, go for it and enjoy the journey, yet if you want to get into a rolling resto like this one, I'd be looking around a bit harder at a complete car mate

That is one beautiful looking car. 

On 11/03/2020 at 12:17, hugh said:

+1. That would be my vote as well. 

Whilst you appear to have exceptional taste  (I'm the previous owner of the blue car), I will admit converted wide body early cars don't excite me. The blue car had RS flares on it when purchased by the previous owner but my intention long term would have been to revert that back to a narrow body. I just feel it suits the early cars better both aesthetically and also in terms of their driving dynamics.

Earlier 911 appeal to me is the narrow body, skinnier wheels/rubber and as a result they not require a lot of HP to be enjoyed and/or get the most out of them. 3.6L in an early chassis I would find is somewhat overwhelming, especially if it is only for street/road use. If not then then something like the IROC above would be your medicine.  

In relation to the grey car reference you've included, as much as I try to understand the appeal, builds like this just look odd to me. Keep it real would be my advice. 

Yes, I’m aware that the blue car was yours. It’s actually the screen saver on my computer, I thought that car was very difficult to fault. Beautiful. 
As much as I love the 901 (narrow or wide), there’s plenty that I love about all air cooled 911s. Whatever car that I end up with (I’m very flexible) will end up being something very cool regardless of what it starts off as. Well, I’ll think it’s cool anyway😁

[DJM]

Buy a GT3 and backdate it by removing the radiator .  air cooled hot rod for a much better price 🤔

[hugh]

2 hours ago, 35SIXXX said:

Whatever car that I end up with (I’m very flexible) will end up being something very cool regardless of what it starts off as. Well, I’ll think it’s cool anyway😁

Totally. Don't rule out the C3 though, they are a very underrated (and cool ) early 911.................

 

[DJM]

Good looking car that 👌🏻

[35SIXXX]

4 hours ago, hugh said:

Totally. Don't rule out the C3 though, they are a very underrated (and cool ) early 911.................

 

I really like that car too. Not too polished, and very purposeful looking. A great stance and the steel wheels look brilliant 👍

[35SIXXX]

Rehashing this old post as I bought a car back then, and have since sold it and are now looking for a new one. 
I’ll put up a wanted post soon, but until then, if anyone knows of any air cooled 911 coupes for sale, please let me know. 
Thanks. 
 

[Peter M]

Well, you've picked a good time to buy as there are currently 89 air cooled 911 on Carsales.  Can't recall ever seeing so many.  Not sure how many are actually priced to sell though!