LeeM Posted 30September, 2014 Report Share Posted 30September, 2014 Ok. This may have been covered elsewhere, yet I couldn't find much in a forum search. Going by the current prices and 'expert' market forecasts, what are your opinions of 'investing for the future' in an earlier 911? late 70's early 80's. Be it original, RS tribute, hot rod etc etc I prefer the RS or hot rod kinda car, yet the white widebody that is for sale here in SA really got me thinking. Not quite ready at the moment though This one http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Porsche-911-1980/SSE-AD-2976364/?Cr=21&sdmvc=1 And I'd love this 912 convert http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Porsche-911-2-7-1967-2D-Coupe-5-SP-Manual-2L-Carb-/141417363528?&_trksid=p2056016.m2518.l4276 It's not in concrete yet, but there's a possible budget of around $40k to $50k which we would pull out of the house equity. At 48 years young, I could think of no better way than to ENJOY an 'investment' now, rather than buying another property, being in a lot more debt, and having to wait till I'm retired to see any real financial benefit. What are your thoughts? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastr Posted 30September, 2014 Report Share Posted 30September, 2014 If you really want it for an investment, and not just an excuse to buy, then you need to look at investment grade cars. What are these? Well, they are the rare ones, ones that cannot be replaced, and ones that are desirable. This likely means: - not a hot rod - original equipment and condition, or authentic and quality restoration - lower mileage - some degree of rarity - documented history In your late 70s early 80s range, the likely candidates are: - Carrera 3.0 - low mileage pristine SCs in desirable color/options, or possibly a special edition like the US Weissach edition - very original turbos Note that your budget might struggle with these! That's my thinking, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgy Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 If you really want it for an investment, and not just an excuse to buy, then you need to look at investment grade cars. What are these? Well, they are the rare ones, ones that cannot be replaced, and ones that are desirable. This likely means: - not a hot rod - original equipment and condition, or authentic and quality restoration - lower mileage - some degree of rarity - documented history In your late 70s early 80s range, the likely candidates are: - Carrera 3.0 - low mileage pristine SCs in desirable color/options, or possibly a special edition like the US Weissach edition - very original turbos Note that your budget might struggle with these! That's my thinking, anyway. Completely agree mate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
au-yt Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 I agree Can I add unique history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugh Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 I'm all for 'investing happiness' in Porsche's...............................But, if your looking to pull money out of your mortgage I'd be advising against it on a purely 'investment' basis. Keep your focus on the 912, once that's on the road I doubt you'll still be chasing a 911 (and that in itself is good investment ) One at a time man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 totally get your thinking and if only 7 years ago...now, the horse has bolted on 'affordable' investment cars in this pay grade. though a 914, or a tasty spec minto 924 or 944 may be viable. Though i reckon 912's are still the absolute bargain for early P ownership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 at best hope for cost neutral... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 at best hope for cost neutral... I agree. However dont underestimate the investment return of years of happiness. Its something money just cat buy. I have owned my car for nearly 10 years, and if were to add up things like insurance, registration, servicing and general maintenance , i would be very lucky to break even. But it makes me smile every time the garage door opens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 I still struggle to see old cars as investments. I think the time to buy was about 2-3 years ago, and a '74-'76 Carrera 2.7. The bubble may burst at any moment (but i'm looking forward to someone quoting this post when values go through the roof) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamr Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 Wow, this is a can of worms in the making .....I have to agree with Coastr with the rare / desirable factor for investment ...One thing, also as Coastr mentioned, it MUST be an original car .... a modded /hotrod will only be desirable to a buyer that also wants to drive it hard and mess with it some more, further decreasing its "collectability" ...... cars like this are for fun and enjoyment, not for making money on .....I also have to mention your method of payment ...... redraw from the morgage ...... not exactly a wise "investment" move ...The idea of buying / investing in one of these from the mortage is certainly not "investing" to me ....Should that money be put into another investment property, it would be paid off in the next 25 years, and then provide an income for the rest of your life... if you didn't want to keep it, you would have a lump sum of money to live on that someone else has pretty much paid off for you. It will also make so much capital gain, you could buy 2 x 911's outright and still have a little left over .....Your 911 "investment" will get you your money back and "maybe" double in price .....I suppose what I am trying to get across is that if you wanted to get a 911 to enjoy, that is one thing ..... but the notion that it would be an investment is why 90% of the population is in the s*#t financially ..... no idea!Are there "investment" grade cars out there? Absolutely! ...... are they the late 70's / early 80's 911's in the $50k bracket ...... no ....... well not in my opinion anyway. I think they should be looked on as something you enjoy instead of having money sitting in a bank account and earning 4% interest.Buy a car to enjoy and use, but don't be under any illusions that it's an investment. Look at it as a way to park money, and get it back when you have finished with it.If you wanted to buy a nice car, I would suggest borrowing the money with a car loan ..... why?Because, it will be done and dusted within 5 years ..... yes, the repayments will be a little higher, but adding it to the home loan stretches it out for the remainder of your term ... 10 years left? 15 years left? more?.........It would actually end up costing you more in loan repayments, making you less money when you decide to sell and take longer to pay out the house .... not exactly an "A" grade investment to me.My opinions differ greatly from the mainstream 90%, and in no way presume that everything that everyone else does is wrong. We all see things differently and this is what makes the world go around.....I, like everyone else, has an opinion on what is a good investment, and what is a not so good investment. For me, I would never invest in shares, but to others, they have become millionares from them.... there is no right or wrong, just different ideas and different levels of comfort.I like most others are interested in hearing other opinions and also am happy to listen and learn about the other ways of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911barber Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 "investment' can be a very loosely used word, ive had my sc a couple of years, and sure if i sold it now i wouldn't make a packet, but it does make me feel good its not depreciated either, compared to the run of the mill cars... the 'profit' I is enjoying looking at it in my garage, that's worth more than the money I've spent. Life's short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 There is a $250 book just released on investing in classic motor vehicles. The book price tells you this is not about buying anything "cheap" As has been noted , when you clinically add up maintenance , insurance and diversion of funds for other purposes (including paying off mortgage and keep wife happy) from the equation , the investment can look like a standard purchase - that might even depreciate. As a minimum you'd want a bit of mileage out of it , not a car cocoon special. When you get into the really special variants , well like supercars they are made in small numbers, thus exclusive. Parts & maintenance are less likely to be DIY-sized and the next owner hopefully paying top $ will be looking for A1 maintenance, including genuine parts. The RS's etc are going up partly through media hype , but also because the "R" means many have not been treated gently! Recommissioning a race type car is eye wateringly expensive as we all know. Horses for courses, let's be honest it's a money pit but if you earn it you can spend it and keep the economy booming away. P.S. for me , paying depreciation on a new car is just silly , but I am Spock-like in my logicality and ability to survive on harsh planets without driver aids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastr Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 I think the investment capability of Porsches should be considered the ability to avoid depreciation like yesterdays movie tickets, as most cars are and do. If we take a mid 80s 911 as an example, if you look after it you should come out around even (avoiding service and maintenance), but probably slightly behind with regards to inflation. Of course with good timing and purchasing, and good selling, it's possible to turn a small profit, and some manage to do that well. When I consider some of the money lost by relatives of mine on new 'luxury' car purchases, it makes me weep. A whole stable of nice old cars could have been established, and even with maintenance the losses would be much, much, less. For reliability, I go with redundancy. Better to have two nice older cars (or three, even) - when you need to go somewhere at least one of them will be working! But when the Jones' must be copied, down to the new dealer showroom we go! In truth, I wish I could write off $100k in a new car purchase depreciation over 3 years, but even if I had the funds, I doubt I could do it. But please don't let me put anyone off buying new cars, someone has to keep the factories open However I would mirror the advice to only borrow when the expected return on the funds (cash on cash return, mind you) is greater than the cost of funds, plus a little margin on top of that to account for the unexpected. That's not easy to find, and not often fun. But doing so will provide free cash-flow in 10-15 years which can then purchase P-cars guilt-free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonk Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 My thoughts are, do it now if you can afford it but don't think of it as an investment. Too many people think too much about the future and that they need to pay off the house as quick as possible, they need to save for the kids education, they need to save for retirement, then all of a sudden they're too old and busted or they've been hit by a bus and forgot to enjoy life on the way. My philosophy is to find a balance and owning a few Porsches is part of that philosophy. Sure, I could have used my $55k for a deposit on a rental property or dumped it into the share market. I don't follow the property market so it would have been a gamble buying the right property. My shares probably would be worth about $65k by now but there is risk involved. The Porsche I could be fairly sure that if I needed to sell it, I could at least get my money back. From an investment point of view, it would have been best in the offset account looking back even though the value of the car has apparently gone up in 2 years. As far as borrowing to buy, we took money out of the offset account which is effectively redrawing against the house. Interest rate is 5% vs about 13% for a car loan from memory. Finance companies won't touch an old car. I have mentally set that part of the loan aside with an aim to pay it off as quick as possible but the reality is all of our money goes into the offset account so you can either view it as being paid off when the entire loan is extinguished or you can view it as being paid off in 6 months. Just depends how you want to mentally allocate your repayments. I think I'm making sense. In answer to the type of car, I think original Aus delivered SC with reasonable kms seem to be good value and in your price bracket. Again, I wouldn't be hoping that it's going to be worth a certain amount in a few years time but you can be pretty sure you'll get what you paid for it (less running expenses of course). And you should be able to sell it reasonably quickly. Low km examples are commanding a hefty premium at the moment so I see them as a terrible investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 Plenty of people in their 60s cannot get in or out of these low sports cars & many of them have got themselves to blame. Don't leave it too late to enjoy the dream and don't get fat and sedentary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamr Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 Plenty of people in their 60s cannot get in or out of these low sports cars & many of them have got themselves to blame. Don't leave it too late to enjoy the dream and don't get fat and sedentary! But remember the flipside ........ plenty of people in their 30's, 40's and 50's drive new and flashy cars but can't afford to eat, pay the utilities or the mortgage ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 I'm all for 'investing happiness' in Porsche's...............................But, if your looking to pull money out of your mortgage I'd be advising against it on a purely 'investment' basis. Keep your focus on the 912, once that's on the road I doubt you'll still be chasing a 911 (and that in itself is good investment ) One at a time man! By that rational, wouldn't it be better to sell your Porsche and put the $ in your mortgage? Same net result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugh Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 By that rational, wouldn't it be better to sell your Porsche and put the $ in your mortgage? Same net result. sorry, don't follow? You saying its better to pay off a Porsche over 25 years + interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 But remember the flipside ........ plenty of people in their 30's, 40's and 50's drive new and flashy cars but can't afford to eat, pay the utilities or the mortgage ........ No mention of kids , a bigger drain on resources than just about everything else...though train tehm right & they will help you in & out of the sports cars when you get old. Including getting you out for the LAST time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 sorry, don't follow? You saying its better to pay off a Porsche over 25 years + interest? No I'm saying if you have a mortgage, any money you spend incurs interest of 5% or whatever. So if you own a Porsche and you have a mortgage, it's smarter to sell it and dump the money in the offset. Unless you think the car is rising in value faster than 5% + expenses. At the moment, they are ..... least that's the story for the wife anyhow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamr Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 No mention of kids , a bigger drain on resources than just about everything else...though train tehm right & they will help you in & out of the sports cars when you get old. Including getting you out for the LAST time. I've already learned to sleep with one eye open because of those little crappers .... told them if anything happens to me before my natural time, I've left it all to the animal shelters ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f3nr15 Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 The best financial investment you can reasonably make in a car is to buy a good one at the bottom of its depreciation curve. That way, it'll retain its value at worst, or appreciate at best. At the moment, any well kept Oz delivered air-cooled rear-wheel drive manual 911 coupe is a potential goer. But we don't buy classic cars to put our kids through uni - we buy them because they speak to us. So the investment is more for your soul than your bank account Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 Unless you think the car is rising in value faster than 5% + expenses. Going on casual offers I've been made for my cars, both have..... least that's the story for the wife anyhow My wife could not care less that the value is increasing. If I ever sold it (911) then it would be replaced by something of equal value (well , price) and possibly more , so she is not jumping for joy , though happy that I am happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugh Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 No I'm saying if you have a mortgage, any money you spend incurs interest of 5% or whatever. So if you own a Porsche and you have a mortgage, it's smarter to sell it and dump the money in the offset. Unless you think the car is rising in value faster than 5% + expenses. Going on casual offers I've been made for my cars, both have..... least that's the story for the wife anyhow Gotcha, understanding the rational! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgy Posted 1October, 2014 Report Share Posted 1October, 2014 My thoughts are, do it now if you can afford it but don't think of it as an investment. Too many people think too much about the future and that they need to pay off the house as quick as possible, they need to save for the kids education, they need to save for retirement, then all of a sudden they're too old and busted or they've been hit by a bus and forgot to enjoy life on the way. My philosophy is to find a balance and owning a few Porsches is part of that philosophy. Sure, I could have used my $55k for a deposit on a rental property or dumped it into the share market. I don't follow the property market so it would have been a gamble buying the right property. My shares probably would be worth about $65k by now but there is risk involved. The Porsche I could be fairly sure that if I needed to sell it, I could at least get my money back. From an investment point of view, it would have been best in the offset account looking back even though the value of the car has apparently gone up in 2 years. As far as borrowing to buy, we took money out of the offset account which is effectively redrawing against the house. Interest rate is 5% vs about 13% for a car loan from memory. Finance companies won't touch an old car. I have mentally set that part of the loan aside with an aim to pay it off as quick as possible but the reality is all of our money goes into the offset account so you can either view it as being paid off when the entire loan is extinguished or you can view it as being paid off in 6 months. Just depends how you want to mentally allocate your repayments. I think I'm making sense. In answer to the type of car, I think original Aus delivered SC with reasonable kms seem to be good value and in your price bracket. Again, I wouldn't be hoping that it's going to be worth a certain amount in a few years time but you can be pretty sure you'll get what you paid for it (less running expenses of course). And you should be able to sell it reasonably quickly. Low km examples are commanding a hefty premium at the moment so I see them as a terrible investment. Now that's a refreshing/realistic post! ^^ Reality has it we are all from different backgrounds and some of us have to put a lot into it to achieve Porsche ownership, for some its spare change to buy a new one and depreciation is a laughable topic, the bottom line? I really don't see the issue if you are living within your means, enjoy now you are a long time dead. I am a strong advocate though for buying a good original example should "sound future value" be important to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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