VW Diesel Emissions Scandal

[firstone]

Good time to buy VW shares.

[JV911]

Given cars are generally detuned for Australian conditions, VW Aus might escape

Good article here

http://www.topgear.com/car-news/insider/big-vw-emissions-scandal-your-questions-answered?cm_mmc=ExactTarget-_-email-_-TOP_GEAR_NLT_24_09_2015+Copy-_-email&utm_medium=Email&utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_campaign=TOP_GEAR_NLT_24_09_2015+Copy

 

[Coastr]

So someone calculated the excess emissions worldwide, and it comes out to about 3,800 tons of Nox over 8 years. Depending on assumptions for vehicle miles covered and 30x average over the emissions standard.

In the same timeframe, the shipping industry has put out about 200 million tones of Nox.  Then add in trucking and stationery equipment, aircraft etc etc... The VW increase is small beer in the overall scheme of things.

I'm not trying to apologise for VW but a sense of perspective here amongst the journalists getting the vapours.

 

[Redracn]

Given cars are generally detuned for Australian conditions, VW Aus might escape

Good article here

http://www.topgear.com/car-news/insider/big-vw-emissions-scandal-your-questions-answered?cm_mmc=ExactTarget-_-email-_-TOP_GEAR_NLT_24_09_2015+Copy-_-email&utm_medium=Email&utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_campaign=TOP_GEAR_NLT_24_09_2015+Copy

 

Our emmision regulations are modeled on Europe's and are generally a few years behind so I would expect no issue in AU cars passing our relatively lax standards of the day.

[Peter M]

A bit of plain English tech history: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/tech/volkswagen-diesel-emissions/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=pbsofficial&utm_campaign=nova_next

[Tit]

I was wondering if Porsche would make a move on VW shares. But this was also highly likely

http://m.canberratimes.com.au/business/vw-names-matthias-mueller-as-chief-executive-officer-20150925-gjvf3r.html

[tazzieman]

 Emission testing has always been a feel good con.

Those guys with smog pumps can re-enter the room now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKef1JFpiCA

 

[DJM]

Surely other companies with be found to have cheated.  They've all introduced those annoying stop start devices to cheat fuel consumption tests (given a chunk of the test includes idling, turn engine off no fuel used).  Who has ever achieved close to the advertised fuel consumption figures.  And they provide a button to override the annoying shut off at the lights anyway.

Im not defending VW but the industry is always trying to get an edge on competitors, they won't be sorry they did it, just sorry they got caught.  

[Blue964]

$6 billion put aside to remedy the problem

Despite what he says Martin Winterkorn will be ousted, and he'll take a few others with him.

i sense a buying opportunity...vw will bounce back and this is a panic sell off

[eoghanroe]

100%. Diesel makes a small portion of sales for VW. 

Talking to a few friends in finance and they reckon they'll go down further yet before they go up again.

[Hughesy]

 

[Coastr]

I was wondering if Porsche would make a move on VW shares. But this was also highly likely

http://m.canberratimes.com.au/business/vw-names-matthias-mueller-as-chief-executive-officer-20150925-gjvf3r.html

Porsche is VW these days.  If they were still an independent company...if only.

Maybe they can sell themsleves as a department to BMW?

[bumble]

The only good to come of this is that the world might finally realise what a crappy fuel diesel is for passenger vehicles.  The French have realised what a disaster it is because of their smog problems and are trying to get rid of it.  I'd be amazed if the 'defeat device' practice is not found on other vehicles.

[firstone]

While we are on dirty diesel.

There are thousands of 4x4s removing EGR and catalytic converters. 

[LeeM]

[Redracn]

While we are on dirty diesel.

There are thousands of 4x4s removing EGR and catalytic converters. 

Only from the few that come with them. Light Comercial Vehicles have a different set of emissions standards to meet than road cars and can belch out far more emissions. Dual Cab Ute's being used as family cars makes a complete mockery of the VW issue along with tradie utes. Never mind the pollution comming from the rear of American Pickups. If they all swapped to even a so called dirty VW the world would be a far better place.

[ANF]

Only from the few that come with them. Light Comercial Vehicles have a different set of emissions standards to meet than road cars and can belch out far more emissions. Dual Cab Ute's being used as family cars makes a complete mockery of the VW issue along with tradie utes. Never mind the pollution comming from the rear of American Pickups. If they all swapped to even a so called dirty VW the world would be a far better place.

SUVs are also classed as light commercial! Our vehicle laws really do need to be updated!!

Classifications are based on the vehicles intended use.... hmmmm???

There are rules set down for all manufacturers to follow, whether these rules be sensible in the first place is a mute point, all manufacturers have the same rules to follow to make it a level playing field, some fuel economies may not be achievable (my last Mercedes and this one are) but it gives the average punter a guide to the cars fuel economy. I doubt others are cheating (I will wait to see evidence...)

 

[Redracn]

Unfortunately no everyone will interpret rules the same way and in a competitive environment the limits of grey will be pushed. Current rules do not require an engine to meet emission standards at full throttle so a manufacturer can be as dirty as they like and still be withing the rules. The spirit of course would be to keep it as clean as possible for the current driving conditions but other considerations come into play like putting holes in pistons.

VW did pass the emissions test fair and square they did not cheat the actual test. It seems that most likely marketing (for the record I hate marketing) decided that fuel economy is a bigger seller and also being something that anybody can measure. So emisions took a back seat when driven on the road in a manner that closely resembles the laboratory drive test. ALL road cars when driven in a more spirited way than the test use more fuel and emit way way more emissions. 

[tazzieman]

Because they said it,  "we" believed it. Das dumb!

[Coastr]

Unfortunately no everyone will interpret rules the same way and in a competitive environment the limits of grey will be pushed. Current rules do not require an engine to meet emission standards at full throttle so a manufacturer can be as dirty as they like and still be withing the rules. The spirit of course would be to keep it as clean as possible for the current driving conditions but other considerations come into play like putting holes in pistons.

VW did pass the emissions test fair and square they did not cheat the actual test. It seems that most likely marketing (for the record I hate marketing) decided that fuel economy is a bigger seller and also being something that anybody can measure. So emisions took a back seat when driven on the road in a manner that closely resembles the laboratory drive test. ALL road cars when driven in a more spirited way than the test use more fuel and emit way way more emissions. 

That's not entirely true - VW themselves have admitted to it being a cheat code which runs the engine on a different map when it detects it is in emissions testing mode - i.e., on a dyno with the OBD port connected.   It's not just about always passing the test in real world driving - but the rules are pretty clear about using cheat modes to fool the test.

The guys who uncovered it also tested a BMW diesel, and replicated the lab results in the real world - i.e., when driven to the test in the real world, it produced the same emissions.  The VWs put out 10-40x times the Nox when driven in test-like conditions in the real world....but put it back on the dyno - magically it meets the test.

So it's more than just pumping out the gas at full throttle..they cheated and got caught.    Yes, the standards are stupid, but in reality it looks like VW is just cheating to get a Euro-standard car to pass the US-standard, which doesn't make special allowance for diesels being noisy shitboxes having a different emissions profile.  The Euro standards are more lax on Nox for diesels than the US standards, as the US requires all fuels to meet the same standards.  The Euros don't care about actual pollution creating smog and respiratory problems because they are too afraid of the ocean being 5 cm higher in 2100 caused by the greatest evil of our age...co2.  So they'd rather pump out actual pollutants now by encouraging diesel, in the hope that the sea level on Brighton beach will be three pebbles lower.

If you have picked up that I consider promoting the use of diesel to 'save the planet' counterproductive and idiotic, you're correct.  Air quality in cities should be the primary concern when it comes to vehicle emissions.

[Redracn]

Coastr.  Running on a different map to pass the test means it did "pass the test". This is not a cheat on the test itself as the car can pass the test. It is by not using the map that passed the test in driving situations that you would reasonably expect it to use that map that is the (cheat) issue as it is clear they never intended for the map that passes to be used on the road. I stand by my assertion that they did not cheat the test itself. The cheat is in deliberately choosing not to ensure the results could be acheived on the road in the real wold instead opting for a leaner i.e. Hi Nox, more economical and lower soot operating map.

My point is that the emmisions are not as bad as is being made out. When it is all said and done no one gets the stated fuel consumption for the cars life and even more so no one gets the stated emissions day in and day out for the vehicles life. And those of us who drive aggressively or drive older cars emit way more of all pollutants than a modern car being driven to church. 

I agree diesel is not the solution in cities and yes the EU takes it relatively easy on diesels. But having said that the US takes it very easy on big very very polluting diesels while at the same time penalizing the very small diesels that ovall emit far fewer emmisions in total.

Some of us that live in the country (when driving non P cars) would prefer better economy as smog build up in a natural  Amphitheater is not a concern. And as far as CO2 being a pollutant don't get me started. 

[Redracn]

  The Euros don't care about actual pollution creating smog and respiratory problems because they are too afraid of the ocean being 5 cm higher in 2100 caused by the greatest evil of our age...co2.  

This could just be the tip of the iceberg in relation to corporate sabotage.  Somewhere in VW someone or some group decided that reducing CO2 was far more important than complying with laws and reducing other harmful emissions and that the ends justified the means. There could be any number of people of the global warming religion who believe that the small amount of CO2 emitted by man will causie catastrophic climate change working in companies including the management and prepared to do whatever it takes. VW not achieving the required result in the US when driven on the road is not a technical issue. The car can pass the test with the correct map. There was a decision made that said stuff your rules we are reducing CO2 regardless of the possible consequences. 

Well that is my conspiracy theory or it could just be marketing wanting a lower fuel consumption figure.?

[Coastr]

This could just be the tip of the iceberg in relation to corporate sabotage.  Somewhere in VW someone or some group decided that reducing CO2 was far more important than complying with laws and reducing other harmful emissions and that the ends justified the means. There could be any number of people of the global warming religion who believe that the small amount of CO2 emitted by man will causie catastrophic climate change working in companies including the management and prepared to do whatever it takes. VW not achieving the required result in the US when driven on the road is not a technical issue. The car can pass the test with the correct map. There was a decision made that said stuff your rules we are reducing CO2 regardless of the possible consequences. 

Well that is my conspiracy theory or it could just be marketing wanting a lower fuel consumption figure.?

No, its the EU that has taken that stance by encouraging diesels over petrol, because diesels emit less co2 than petrol.  VW just figured out a way to get the more-polluting EU spec diesel engines to certify in the USA without fitting more expensive emissions equipment.  No conspiracy required - just plain ol' profit making.  

When I say 'more polluting' we are talking fine degrees though.  Even the worst VW is a million times better than your local garbage truck.

Anyway, this appeared on my spacechook feed, a good laugh

[Redracn]

Looks like we are all becoming lead foots. ?

 

The problem is, the tests which are done in the laboratory do not correspond to the actual performance on the street and that’s absolutely what we have to fix,” said Potocnik in a video clip (after the 9-minute mark). “The actual situation is such that the [emissions] performance on the street today its basically somewhere around the level of the standards that were set in Euro 1. This was by the way, in 1992.”

While NOx emission limits for diesel passenger cars have been tightened by an approximate factor of 4 from 1993 to 2009 (Euro 1 to Euro 5), the estimated average NOx emissions in real driving conditions have slightly increased. Source: EU Impact Assessment.

[tazzieman]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-settlement-idUSKCN0Z9235