AUDI (WAGON) APPRECIATION GROUP - RS2 S4 , RS4

[smit2100]

On 05/03/2019 at 17:08, donR said:

No as you would know the 991 has two snails and probably a little above my budget but I happily settled for another Porsche with one snail that is just as quick and a little faster and smaller than my RS4 🙂

Still 5 doors or two.

[donR]

On 06/03/2019 at 22:16, smit2100 said:

Still 5 doors or two.

Two doors or I should probably say three so still some similarities to the RS, even the GT Silver colour is similar, although a little more grey 🙂 

[hugh]

So.............what's the one to buy? Is buying an old Audi just asking for punishment? Enlighten me! 

(P.S only interested in Man wagons)

[donR]

1 hour ago, hugh said:

So.............what's the one to buy? Is buying an old Audi just asking for punishment? Enlighten me! 

(P.S only interested in Man wagons)

This is a topic close to my heart since I am selling my 2001 B5 RS4 with only ~ 53,000 kms after 16 years of ownership (see back on page 4). Obviously not used as a daily but rather spirited country drives which it is perfect for with improved suspension set up, Bilstein PSS9s and H&R anti-roll bar upgrade. Yet just as comfortable or luxurious on the open road with quite good sound insulation and compliance in the suspension depending on setting. If you want to really hear the engine you have to rev it, wind down the window or get a sports exhaust, it is really quite a civilised car or a real sleeper as they say. 

I'd say the Uber wagon to buy is either the RS2 (developed by Porsche) or the B5 RS4 (engine built by Cosworth Racing back in the day when Audi acquired them). 

The 2006/2007 B7 RS4 is a better driver's car out of the box but the B5 RS4 handling (under steer) is easily corrected with a good set of anti-roll bars. Improved further with coil-overs and is a faster car if you can handle a little turbo lag. Interior and technology wise they are much the same. 

The B7 RS4 is known for all sorts of problems cropping up including DRC leakage, electrical gremlins and various engine problems including carbonisation, and is a little heavy at a kerb weight of close to 1800kg. The B5 RS4 is relatively light weight at 1640 kg and feels very fast with twin turbo Cosworth built engine and is extremely reliable as long as you stay on top of services/maintenance. 

https://forum.rs246.com/ or http://www.ozaudi.com/forums/ is a good place if you want to do some research. 

Mechanical problems for the B5 RS4 are few and far between. The only major was the soft alloy OEM wheels and there is a synchro upgrade for the gear box which can get a bit notchy but seems to only affect certain builds. Otherwise plenty of UK models with well over 200,000 miles running stage 1 or 2 without fault. Some tune to 550 hp on original internals which are OEM upgraded over the B5 S4. See attached article. 

Of course only the B5 and B7 RS4s and RS2 come in manual so that probably cuts out the rest of them but I will give the other RS wagons a brief mention below:

The 2013 B8.5 RS4 is a fine vehicle with all the mod cons, DSG gear box, fine V8 engine, but is to put it frankly a little boring to drive and at almost 1900 kg kerb weight it is the real porka of the bunch. Fairly reliable but with high servicing costs and eats its front pads and rotors routinely. 

There is the new 2018 B9 RS4 which is a great car if you want something new and can spare the coin. It has shed a little weight but still well over 1800kg. 

You might also consider the RS6 models which are the real heavy weights but the 2008-2010 C6 V10 turbo and 2013- C7 V8 turbo models have the performance to match but auto only. 

The_Power_Of_The_RS4.pdf

Oh I should also probably mention if you are on a budget there are the lesser model wagons like B5 and B6 A4 (4 cylinder) and S4 wagons but I'd say a manual version will be hard to find (there is none at present) and they will not be as well looked after so you would need to be very patient and choose carefully. 

I cannot think of any other manual wagons worth purchasing unless you went to something like a Skoda or VW or Holden or Japanese. 

[Peter John]

1 hour ago, hugh said:

So.............what's the one to buy? Is buying an old Audi just asking for punishment? Enlighten me! 

(P.S only interested in Man wagons)

Man Wagons (in Tim the Tool man voice).

[hugh]

5 hours ago, donR said:

This is a topic close to my heart since I am selling my 2001 B5 RS4 with only ~ 53,000 kms after 16 years of ownership (see back on page 4). Obviously not used as a daily but rather spirited country drives which it is perfect for with improved suspension set up, Bilstein PSS9s and H&R anti-roll bar upgrade. Yet just as comfortable or luxurious on the open road with quite good sound insulation and compliance in the suspension depending on setting. If you want to really hear the engine you have to rev it, wind down the window or get a sports exhaust, it is really quite a civilised car or a real sleeper as they say. 

I'd say the Uber wagon to buy is either the RS2 (developed by Porsche) or the B5 RS4 (engine built by Cosworth Racing back in the day when Audi acquired them). 

The 2006/2007 B7 RS4 is a better driver's car out of the box but the B5 RS4 handling (under steer) is easily corrected with a good set of anti-roll bars. Improved further with coil-overs and is a faster car if you can handle a little turbo lag. Interior and technology wise they are much the same. 

The B7 RS4 is known for all sorts of problems cropping up including DRC leakage, electrical gremlins and various engine problems including carbonisation, and is a little heavy at a kerb weight of close to 1800kg. The B5 RS4 is relatively light weight at 1640 kg and feels very fast with twin turbo Cosworth built engine and is extremely reliable as long as you stay on top of services/maintenance. 

https://forum.rs246.com/ or http://www.ozaudi.com/forums/ is a good place if you want to do some research. 

Mechanical problems for the B5 RS4 are few and far between. The only major was the soft alloy OEM wheels and there is a synchro upgrade for the gear box which can get a bit notchy but seems to only affect certain builds. Otherwise plenty of UK models with well over 200,000 miles running stage 1 or 2 without fault. Some tune to 550 hp on original internals which are OEM upgraded over the B5 S4. See attached article. 

Of course only the B5 and B7 RS4s and RS2 come in manual so that probably cuts out the rest of them but I will give the other RS wagons a brief mention below:

The 2013 B8.5 RS4 is a fine vehicle with all the mod cons, DSG gear box, fine V8 engine, but is to put it frankly a little boring to drive and at almost 1900 kg kerb weight it is the real porka of the bunch. Fairly reliable but with high servicing costs and eats its front pads and rotors routinely. 

There is the new 2018 B9 RS4 which is a great car if you want something new and can spare the coin. It has shed a little weight but still well over 1800kg. 

You might also consider the RS6 models which are the real heavy weights but the 2008-2010 C6 V10 turbo and 2013- C7 V8 turbo models have the performance to match but auto only. 

The_Power_Of_The_RS4.pdf 4.97 MB · 0 downloads

Oh I should also probably mention if you are on a budget there are the lesser model wagons like B5 and B6 A4 (4 cylinder) and S4 wagons but I'd say a manual version will be hard to find (there is none at present) and they will not be as well looked after so you would need to be very patient and choose carefully. 

I cannot think of any other manual wagons worth purchasing unless you went to something like a Skoda or VW or Holden or Japanese. 

Fantastic info and advice.............definitely food for thought. 

[DJM]

I'll never buy a new Audi again.  My Q7 value plummeted like a stone.  check out RS6 wagons on Carsales, current model $245k, same shape 2014-2016 as low as $120k.  I can think of better ways to shred $125k over 3 or 4 years!

The only one for your garage is RS2, Porsche collaboration, cup rims and all

https://gearpatrol.com/2018/03/08/audi-rs-2-best-of-geneva-motor-show-2018/

 

[donR]

4 hours ago, DJM said:

I'll never buy a new Audi again.  My Q7 value plummeted like a stone.  check out RS6 wagons on Carsales, current model $245k, same shape 2014-2016 as low as $120k.  I can think of better ways to shred $125k over 3 or 4 years!

The only one for your garage is RS2, Porsche collaboration, cup rims and all

https://gearpatrol.com/2018/03/08/audi-rs-2-best-of-geneva-motor-show-2018/

 

Yep depreciation is a killer.

An RS2 would be nice but they were never sold in Australia and only 48 B5 RS4s so they are also relatively rare.

The only RS2 I've seen for sale over the years is an import with over 150,000kms and they want $105k for it. So I'm not sure if there is much value in it unless you are a collector. Although RS2s are similarly priced in Europe so perhaps $100k is a fair price. 

B5 RS4 prices are also on the way up in the UK for good examples due to their relative rarity and Cosworth race pedigree. 

[9er]

There is a good selection of B5 RS4 on Carsales to choose from. (well 6 to be exact)

[donR]

On 22/03/2019 at 22:34, hugh said:

Fantastic info and advice.............definitely food for thought. 

no problem. I'm looking at selling by the end of the month so if you are interested let me know ASAP.

[turboT]

On 22/03/2019 at 22:34, hugh said:

Fantastic info and advice.............definitely food for thought. 

on my second RS4 B7 hugh. Honestly a pretty amazing all rounder. The sound of the V8...

Get the wagon for sure bike boy.

Things to watch:

1. an advantage if discs have been recently replaced - bloody expensive

2. Same with Tyres

3. recently had the carbonisation issue mentioned above. Audi wanted to replace the whole exhaust manifold (half the engine) because they no longer know how to work on their own cars. $7k fix . They reset the warning light instead and no issue since. The car is now 10 years old so will look for a cheaper option if it arises again. Its caused by some plastic bits they used where they should have been metal. There is an aftermarket fix.

4. would doubt if any owner owed more than $20k on their cars so lots of negotiating room to pick up one relatively cheap. Other than that it feels like they are near the bottom of their depreciation for a well maintained car.

B5 - would also love one. Only issues that I have seen, apart from the obvious of them been older is the interior. Everyone I see is this lightgrey/off white and they look shocking..

The wife mentioned an RS6 the other day...condition was that I can to sell up the P-cars ....yeah sure

 

[clutch-monkey]

surely the carbonisation issue can be helped along by running a can of subaru upper cylinder cleaner through..

[donR]

34 minutes ago, clutch-monkey said:

surely the carbonisation issue can be helped along by running a can of subaru upper cylinder cleaner through..

No the Subaru cleaner does not work with carbon build up on inlet valves caused by direct injection. 

You need to do a walnut blast/clean. Plenty of walnut cleaning systems now around for the N54/N55 BMW 6 cylinder turbo engines and I presume for the Audi V8s that also have direct injection. Does a great job. 

Check this video out, it gets so bad:

 

4 hours ago, turboT said:

...

B5 - would also love one. Only issues that I have seen, apart from the obvious of them been older is the interior. Everyone I see is this lightgrey/off white and they look shocking...

 

Correct, the more common black B5 RS4s all came with the white alcantara interior which does look bad with age.

However, the Avus Silver B5 RS4s (only 11 of in Australia) all came with the grey alcantara interior which looks much better with age. 

[clutch-monkey]

isn't this build up common in diesel motors? plenty of shops can do that kind of clean out for less than audi $$?

[turboT]

21 hours ago, clutch-monkey said:

isn't this build up common in diesel motors? plenty of shops can do that kind of clean out for less than audi $$?

hope so...

wow

 https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/Audi-RS4-2001/SSE-AD-6009319/?Cr=1

 

[donR]

No problems with carbon build up on the 2000-2001 B5 RS4 as they are not direct injection. 

Yep this must be the lowest km B5 RS4 in Australia at 17,500 kms. If it is genuine I think it is good buying at that price for a collector and everything should be like new. Seats look a little dirty but could be the camera. 

Strange thing is it was advertised in SA for over a year then bought last year by a VIC owner but he is now selling after less than one year.

[itsujack]

Second bite at an RS2 anyone? 

https://classicthrottleshop.com/1995-audi-porsche-rs2-avant/

[MARTY]

17 minutes ago, itsujack said:

Second bite at an RS2 anyone? 

https://classicthrottleshop.com/1995-audi-porsche-rs2-avant/

Brilliant car which would still hold its own on the roads today 

[itsujack]

45 minutes ago, MARTY said:

Brilliant car which would still hold its own on the roads today 

Sold in Jan for just under $70k, I was at $65k. It drove well but needed some attention which it may have received in the interim. THE colour for an RS2!

[smit2100]

8 minutes ago, itsujack said:

Sold in Jan for just under $70k, I was at $65k. It drove well but needed some attention which it may have received in the interim. THE colour for an RS2!

Very nice bits of kit and not something you see in the flesh very often. Saw my first one in noggy blue in the flesh in York WA in 2008 at a german car day.  Stand out cars along with a pristine rally audi quattro. Then meet a guy at an audi car day in Mebourne  who just got back from the UK.   Brought back 2 in 2010 at   landed prices of circa 11k each  in fair value. ( noggy blue  and green) with a bunch of spare parts in the sea container..  I asked why not bring  in something else like a Ferrari 360.  He said besides buying cheap; at the time customs had no clue on what market value was so he just used his purchase receipt as the value along with the words, trust me, these are going only one way price wise in the future.    Wise man.

[MARTY]

23 minutes ago, itsujack said:

Sold in Jan for just under $70k, I was at $65k. It drove well but needed some attention which it may have received in the interim. THE colour for an RS2!

But it’s not BLACK😂

[itsujack]

8 minutes ago, MARTY said:

But it’s not BLACK😂

There aren't many times, but occasionally a bit of colour is best!

[LeeM]

3 hours ago, itsujack said:

There aren't many times, but occasionally a bit of colour is best!

 But...but...but...you're an architect aren't you? (Or am I thinking of someone else?) 

[itsujack]

6 hours ago, LeeM said:

 But...but...but...you're an architect aren't you? (Or am I thinking of someone else?) 

True Lee, we use colour sparingly, but this is one of those times where it's acceptable!

[AlexB7RS4]

I've owned a B7 RS4 Avant for the past 3 years. Problems listed above on the B7 are overblown a little. They do have DRC issues but in the same breath the B5 owner (nice B5 btw, very clean) mentioned swapping a B5 to coilovers to correct the handling issues? Do the same on a B7 and problem solved. It's what most owners do - I'm running KW V3s. Curb weight is 1710 not 1800 (Avant) and 1640ish for the Saloon - only the Cab is close to 1800.

Engines are basically bulletproof, as is the gearbox. Carbon build up happens if the cars aren't often revved out well and is ~$800 to have cleaned every 30-50,000km but isn't necessary - the car runs fine just loses 20 odd hp in the top end. Manifold flap linkages are a $350 replacement aftermarket if the issues occur, done at the same time as a carbon clean the labour cost is minimal. Basically the rest of the cost is consumables - brakes, tyres - no worse than any other car with big brakes and wide tyres.

For a driver's car the B7 is widely considered the high watermark for Audi RS cars. V8 Engine that revs to 8200rpm is intoxicating too. Having said that, it's no RWD dynamically and doesn't quite stack up to M cars or Porsches as a driver's car (though the interior is miles better than an M3). It's still suffering from being understeery as a result of the engine being so far in front of the front axle. No amount of suspension trickery can fix it, though as with the B5 a good set of ARBs can make it more neutral. They are very solid, well built cars. I've driven a few and even the poor condition ones don't really rattle or squeak and the gears and engine feel strong.

Interior of the B7 is far nicer than a B5 if you get one with the Recaro buckets and flat bottomed steering wheel. If you get the American comfort pack they are pretty similar other than standard age-related changes like infotainment, of which the B7 is also vastly outdated anyway. 

Other considerations: B5s are rarer and clearly on the way up in price, they look to be clear collectors items. When I bought my B7 in 2007, the B5s were ~$35k. Now they are mostly 70+. I suspect the B7s won't be far behind and are at the bottom of their depreciation. The Avants seem to be holding value at least though it's hard to tell with so few on the market and a wide range in price and condition - Saloons and Cabs perhaps still dropping.