tazzieman Posted 21March, 2018 Author Report Share Posted 21March, 2018 22 minutes ago, LeeM said: Nearly there with those bloody Formula E things ? Result of futuristic engineering was predicted in 1984. Or even earlier if you read the book! firstone 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANF Posted 21March, 2018 Report Share Posted 21March, 2018 31 minutes ago, LeeM said: Nearly there with those bloody Formula E things ? Lee you will be thrilled to know that they have just tested a Moto E bike.... Simon Crafar road it before the Moto GP race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeM Posted 21March, 2018 Report Share Posted 21March, 2018 8 minutes ago, ANF said: Lee you will be thrilled to know that they have just tested a Moto E bike.... Simon Crafar road it before the Moto GP race. The less said from me the better mate. I laugh at the Isle Of Man E race, so you can imagine my enthusiasm for a MotoGP E bike PTINS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANF Posted 21March, 2018 Report Share Posted 21March, 2018 2 minutes ago, LeeM said: The less said from me the better mate. I laugh at the Isle Of Man E race, so you can imagine my enthusiasm for a MotoGP E bike It is all very sad, long live classic/ revival motorsport racing!! PTINS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTINS Posted 21March, 2018 Report Share Posted 21March, 2018 21 minutes ago, LeeM said: The less said from me the better mate. I laugh at the Isle Of Man E race, so you can imagine my enthusiasm for a MotoGP E bike Yep Uh huh. I'll say it E car, E bike, E plane, E Train...E Copter, E Boat, E Phone E Drone... , E Sub, E Ski, E Ship, E S?. E Jet... E Ject. Theres good reason we don't have driverless trains, and they're on rails, with directional travel, so what's so 'smart' about driverless cars, on roads in numbers, going in any direction, with people, our kids in them. Just because we can doesn't mean we should. thanks George Orwell OZ930, tazzieman, Troubleshooter and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 21March, 2018 Author Report Share Posted 21March, 2018 12 minutes ago, PTINS said: Theres good reason we don't have driverless trains, and they're on rails, with directional travel, so what's so 'smart' about driverless cars, on roads in numbers, going in any direction, with people, our kids in them. Just because we can doesn't mean we should. Hey , paste that into https://lingojam.com/StephenHawkingVoiceGenerator PTINS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANF Posted 21March, 2018 Report Share Posted 21March, 2018 16 minutes ago, PTINS said: Theres good reason we don't have driverless trains, and they're on rails, with directional travel, so what's so 'smart' about driverless cars, on roads in numbers, going in any direction, with people, our kids in them. Just because we can doesn't mean we should. We might not but Germany has had them for ages! (probably others too) They have large glass windows at the front, bloody eerie sitting in the front of the train and seeing no one drive it...... PTINS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTINS Posted 21March, 2018 Report Share Posted 21March, 2018 6 minutes ago, tazzieman said: Hey , paste that into https://lingojam.com/StephenHawkingVoiceGenerator ? E S? Equals E copyright! 3 minutes ago, ANF said: We might not but Germany has had them for ages! (probably others too) They have large glass windows at the front, bloody eerie sitting in the front of the train and seeing no one drive it...... Yep, eerie for sure, I've travelled on them too, and can't say it was a relaxing journey at all, had to convince myself someone was at the controls...somewhere, but being attached to rails in the cabin provided some odd level of comfort. Cant say I'd be even remotely as comfortable in a driverless car, boat or plane. And in that we come to the moral dilemma and context of computerised control involving human activity, oddly enough, I could find it easier to live with human error...because we can somehow rationalise it, no matter how irrational it seems. ANF 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troubleshooter Posted 22March, 2018 Report Share Posted 22March, 2018 On 21/03/2018 at 2:58 PM, Coastr said: theI need to read the facts somewhere other than channel nine trash reporting, but if she did step out in front of a moving vehicle, nothing that can be done. If it was avoidable (detectable and with enough time to swerve or stop) then that is another story. I'm sure there were other accidents even in phoenix on the same day with pedestrians and cyclists getting hit by cars. Computers are not magic. Still, the investigation needs to proceed carefully and publicly and learn lots from it. Deaths are inevitable just like the early days of aviation. As already said, a zero death toll is not possible. If it can be reduced below the current rate that is progress, even when someone gets splatted. There are enough cars around with emergency stop systems now that the numbers show they reduce the crash rate - the computers are always paying attention while the driver is not. Negligence doesn't come into it - drivers already are given a free pass on negligence unless they are really speeding, drunk or otherwise doing a serious violation. Look the wrong way at an intersection and run over a person and you're still not held negligent, and won't even have to pay for their injuries or death because the insurance on the car will handle it all. So the same things can be sorted out for autonomous vehicles - a registration fee would pay into an insurance pool which would pay out in case of injuries caused by normal operation. I think someone made mention of a licence to kill - interestingly enough the 'crime' of jaywalking was invented because motorists didn't like having to stop for pedestrians. A 'jay' was the word of the times for 'vagrant' or 'bum'. Imagine trying to pass a law preventing 'vagrantwalking' to allow adoption of autonomous cars. I think from the video that it's a possibility the 'cough' driver 'cough' concentrating on the road instead of the bag of Doritos on her lap and having her mitts upon the wheel instead of the diet coke may have had high beams on as visibility looks poor but also could have reacted and maybe shed 5 or 10kph upon slamming the brakes...still probably a death I guess.. PTINS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redracn Posted 22March, 2018 Report Share Posted 22March, 2018 Low beam for sure. I doubt the minder touched the brakes before impact as no sign of nose dip before impact. Autonomous cars do not rely solely on visable light so should have seen this comming way in advance. Any lidar or radar system should have eaisly detected her. No obstructions nothing in the way no excuses for Uber to hide behind. PTINS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastr Posted 22March, 2018 Report Share Posted 22March, 2018 Yikes I know cameras are not human eyes but that bike appeared out of nowhere. Worst nightmare as a driver. Agreed that sensors are supposed to use other detections apart from visible light, so the car should have stopped. I’m sure the human operator is *suppposed* to be watching but this is the gap issue - once the person begins to trust the car a little bit, attention wanders. You can’t have partial automation - either full or none. PTINS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 22March, 2018 Author Report Share Posted 22March, 2018 I would have thought such an advanced car would have infrared eyes. Worth a read https://seekingalpha.com/article/4158265-uber-arizona-accident-shows-tesla-losing-end-autonomy PTINS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTINS Posted 25March, 2018 Report Share Posted 25March, 2018 On 23/03/2018 at 5:00 AM, Coastr said: Yikes I know cameras are not human eyes but that bike appeared out of nowhere. Worst nightmare as a driver. Agreed that sensors are supposed to use other detections apart from visible light, so the car should have stopped. I’m sure the human operator is *suppposed* to be watching but this is the gap issue - once the person begins to trust the car a little bit, attention wanders. You can’t have partial automation - either full or none. Agree completely, full auto or non, partial automation will build complacency gap and error, this has a long way to go. Some more advanced safety options in cars now work well and help increase reaction times when the driver fails gap braking, and blind spot warnings etc, as a back up this is functional (an extension of tech like ABS improves braking effectiveness), but moreover as the visually driven camera safety nets increase, these may build complacency, what happens if and when they fail? Who's watching? The driver is and should be ultimately responsible. Companies and robots won't be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 25March, 2018 Author Report Share Posted 25March, 2018 3 hours ago, PTINS said: but moreover as the visually driven camera safety nets increase, these may build complacency, what happens if and when they fail? Who's watching? The driver is and should be ultimately responsible. Companies and robots won't be. Automotive black boxes? A whole new industry analysing crash data! PTINS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redracn Posted 25March, 2018 Report Share Posted 25March, 2018 2 minutes ago, tazzieman said: Automotive black boxes? A whole new industry analysing crash data! Nothing new as accedents loggers have been around for a long time. Just not that popular. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_data_recorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTINS Posted 25March, 2018 Report Share Posted 25March, 2018 25 minutes ago, Redracn said: Nothing new as accedents loggers have been around for a long time. Just not that popular. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_data_recorder Yep they're in every new car in since 2003. Rental companies have used them for decades. In US Rental co's knows every move, speed, you make, you can't pass responsibility if you crash one, and all satellite tracked. I had a car in Boston in 2005 was cracking along driving to Buffalo NY and Canada, and the when I dropped it back in Boston they knew speed, distance everything plus where I'd been and I didn't have a sat Nav. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastr Posted 25March, 2018 Report Share Posted 25March, 2018 I rented a car yesterday with a BMW app rental scheme called ‘ReachNow’ - you find the car parked anywhere using the app, unlock it and start using it, then lock it when you are finished. interesting as the app is integrated with the idrive system. I poked around a bit in the car and saw that there were multiple cameras hidden in the interior (exterior too, I presume). When you drive outside the ‘home area’ it warns you and says you can’t end your trip there. i wondered how they can do the insurance on such a scheme but my conclusion is that with all the sensor logging you’re only covered in very accidental collisions. PTINS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 25March, 2018 Author Report Share Posted 25March, 2018 Wonder whether insurance companies are going to start hating on old cars without Big Brother technology? Or will being a "mature" driver still count for something? Old cars have as much right to be on the roads as old cyclists , what with their distracting colours and chatting whilst not looking at the road ahead. "I need to leave my past behind...I need to leave my behind in the past" - The B52s ("Detour through your mind") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 25March, 2018 Author Report Share Posted 25March, 2018 https://electrek.co/2018/03/25/tesla-is-not-a-benchmark-porsche-mission-e-model-s/ "Where Porsche says it will beat the Model S is with the ability to maintain high speeds for long period of times, something that the Model S has trouble doing without overheating its powertrain and significantly increasing energy consumption. Earlier this month, a Porsche executive said that the Mission E will be able to go long distances at high speed, like traveling on the German autobahn, or to complete a few laps on the race track." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastr Posted 26March, 2018 Report Share Posted 26March, 2018 Plenty of interest in insurance companies reading the black boxes. Having an old analog car will really be a way around the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 26March, 2018 Author Report Share Posted 26March, 2018 4 hours ago, Coastr said: Plenty of interest in insurance companies reading the black boxes. Having an old analog car will really be a way around the system. My dear old analog 928 thanks you! PTINS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troubleshooter Posted 30March, 2018 Report Share Posted 30March, 2018 Tesla shares continue plunge as questions swirl about fatal Model X crash https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/companies/tesla-shares-continue-plunge-as-questions-swirl-about-fatal-model-x-crash-20180329-p4z6sx.html Tesla recalls 123,000 Model S cars globally to replace bolts https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/companies/tesla-recalls-123-000-model-s-cars-globally-to-replace-bolts-20180330-p4z72d.html Tesla Recalls Half the Cars it Ever Produced; Credit Rating Downgraded http://www.breitbart.com/california/2018/03/30/tesla-recalls-half-cars-ever-produced-credit-rating-downgraded/ Tesla shares fell the most in almost two years as questions about a fatal Model X crash in California intensified the pressure on Elon Musk's electric-car maker. The company is working with authorities to retrieve data logs from the vehicle that crashed Friday, killing the driver, according to a Tesla blog post. Tesla didn't say whether the vehicle's Autopilot system was engaged but preemptively defended the driver-assist feature, which it's developing as a precursor to autonomous driving. March has been brutal for Tesla, with shares falling on all but five days. The trend continued Wednesday with a decline of as much as 9.7 per cent, the biggest drop since June 2016, to $US252.10. Its unsecured bonds have also hit all-time lows ahead of the release of first-quarter production results expected next week. The crash, which is being investigated by US authorities, adds to Chief Executive Officer Musk's challenges including concerns that the electric-car maker won't reach its production targets for the all-important Model 3 sedan. "We have in the past questioned Tesla's promise that the current hardware will be able to eventually provide full self-driving capability," Cowen analyst Jeffrey Osborne, who rates Tesla as "underperform," wrote in a note. Given regulators' reaction to the fatal Uber crash, "we see a large risk" that the self-driving equipment and capabilities Tesla has been touting to customers many not meet the eventual government standards, he wrote. Wei Huang, 38, died when his Tesla collided with a highway barrier on southbound Highway 101 near Mountain View and caught fire, Musk vowed to demonstrate a fully autonomous Los Angeles-to-New-York cross-country trip by the end of 2017, but that date has slipped. Tesla's Autopilot team has suffered from leadership turnover over the past year and a half. Sterling Anderson left Tesla in December 2016 and was ultimately replaced by Chris Lattner, who was hired from Apple and lasted roughly six months at Tesla. In June 2017, Tesla hired Andrej Karpathy, a research scientist from OpenAI, another Musk enterprise. The safety board's probe into the Mountain View crash is the second this year involving the company's vehicles. Moody's Investors Service on Tuesday downgraded Tesla's corporate family rating to B3, six levels into junk, and said its outlook on the company is negative. The credit rater cited "the significant shortfall in the production rate of Tesla's Model 3" and liquidity pressures as two chief concerns. "The negative outlook reflects the likelihood that Tesla will have to undertake a large, near-term capital raise in order to refund maturing obligations and avoid a liquidity short-fall," Moody's analysts wrote. Model 3 deliveries have fallen short of Musk's lofty goals since the company started building it in July. Bloomberg's Model 3 tracker estimates the company may be making about 975 of the cars a week, well short of the target to build at a 2,500-unit rate by the end of this quarter. "This is the most negative sentiment I've seen in a while," Ben Kallo, an analyst at Baird, said Tuesday. "It's really about the Model 3 production and ramp up, and the shorts are piling in." Recall Tesla is recalling all Model S cars built before April 2016 to retrofit a power-steering component as the company caps its worst one-month performance in the stock market since December 2010. The issue, which the car maker said has not led to any accidents or injuries, impacts only the flagship Model S sedan, not the Model X sport utility vehicle or more affordable Model 3. The recall affects roughly 123,000 vehicles globally. Bloomberg Tesla Motors stock fell to a 13-month low after the company announced the recall of about half of all the cars it ever produced Thursday, and after the company suffered a credit rating downgrade. Tesla’s stock market capitalization fell by $10 billion over the last three months, and about $22 billion over the last six months. At $259.30 per share, it is trading at the lowest price since early 2017. The company is producing 90 percent fewer Model 3 vehicles than forecast; its Chief Financial Officer resigned over fears the company is burning $2 billion of cash per year; and Tesla is now the subject of a federal probe over a death that occurred while a driver was using the car’s self-driving features. All of that contributed to Moody’s Investors Service issuing a credit downgrade for Tesla, from B2 (non-investment grade) to B3 (highly speculative). Moody’s analysts commented that the company’s “significant shortfall in the production rate of the company’s Model 3 electric vehicle” had led to “liquidity pressures due to its large negative free cash flow and the pending maturities of convertible bonds.” CEO Elon Musk gave a speech last weekend that many are calling is his equivalent of Sir Winston Churchill’s rallying of British boat owners to save the troops at Dunkirk. He showed up at Tesla’s Fremont, California, factory to encourage workers to disprove the “haters” that are shorting the company’s stock on the bet that Tesla cannot ramp up manufacturing by 1,000 percent to mass-produce on its Model 3. Tesla Chief Engineer Doug Field told workers in a March 23 memo, “I find that personally insulting, and you should too” that Wall Street hedge funds think we will fail. “Let’s make them regret ever betting against us. You will prove a bunch of haters wrong.” Tesla will celebrate the two-year anniversary of introducing its Model 3 — and quickly taking deposits for 500,000 potential customers — on Saturday. CEO Musk emphasized at the time that through “physics-first principles,” Tesla would shape a new mode of industrial production to improve efficiency by “factors of 10 or even 100 times.” Musk emphasized that Tesla’s key advantage in building all-electric vehicles would be limiting moving electric engine parts to 20, versus up to 10,000 for internal combustion engines. Musk claimed that the company would be delivering 5,000 Model 3 vehicles per week in the last quarter of 2017 and 10,000 per week in the first quarter of 2018. But Doug Field stated in his weekend memo to Tesla workers that the company is currently producing about 1,000 cars per week, and that Tesla’s goal is to produce 1,500 a week by the end of the second quarter. Redracn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 9April, 2018 Author Report Share Posted 9April, 2018 I guess people with philosophy degrees end up being employed by car manufacturers. This sort of thing does my head in. http://www.popsci.com.au/tech/cars/the-role-of-humans-in-selfdriving-cars-is-even-more-complicated-after-ubers-fatal-crash,487764 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troubleshooter Posted 9April, 2018 Report Share Posted 9April, 2018 Geez for fuchs sake just drive the damn cars, not that hard or that much effort is it? Still have to pay an öperator to sit there so make em drive instead of stuffing doritos in there gobhole while texting tazzieman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 10April, 2018 Author Report Share Posted 10April, 2018 I'm quite happy to be labelled a Luddite old fart , but I cannot see myself ever allowing a computer to take over the functions of my body (unless I have lost control of bodily functions and there is a possibility of recovery). Nor will I ride in such a vehicle, unless trained attentive human hands are on the freaking controls! https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2018/04/video-appears-to-show-tesla-autopilot-veering-toward-divider-at-site-of-deadly-crash/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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