GT3 Death Rattle ...

[Skidmarks]

Some who own them may have experienced this and still be in therapy ...

I'd not had the "pleasure" so when it happened I fair shat my lederhosen. 

On the start up after a couple of weeks with no fire in the hole, when I went to start the '99 GT3, the first 3-4 seconds of life sounded like someone had chucked some large bolts into the engine case.

Speaking to the guy that has built these engines for me in the past (race motors admittedly so sounding shite on start up is all part of the "charm") he chuckled and said that "they all do that".  

WELL!!  I. DONT. LIKE. IT. 

Being a man of great mechanical sympathy (just don't ask the synchro's in my IROC 915 ...) I said something along the lines of "fix the farkin thing, I can't stand it".

And he did.  The answer is simple. A relay on the fuel pump that means it doesn't deliver boom juice for 5 seconds, oil pressure builds and hey presto, no death rattle.

Just thought I'd share in case therapy is costing too much.

[GUT]

I thought I was going to read something much more dire

[Airhead]

My wife's race car recently got a death rattle and no fuel pump relay is gunna fix that.

[Mike-S]

Sounds like our Triumph Spitfire, the big end death rattle is a designed in feature at startup thanks to the orientation of the oil filter.

[Skidmarks]

I thought I was going to read something much more dire

It was dire. I've yet to get the nip and tuck done on the RS or the '04 so if you're game, you're welcome to bear witness. Bring scotch. 

My wife's race car recently got a death rattle and no fuel pump relay is gunna fix that.

RIP. 

Sounds like our Triumph Spitfire, the big end death rattle is a designed in feature at startup thanks to the orientation of the oil filter.

Big fan of the Spitfire. A guy I knew had one. Raced it a bit too. Cool ride. 

 

[DJM]

I feared the worst.  I thought you were going to report a repeat of my GT2 Herr Mezger death rattle.  Second gear, 5000 rpm, BANG rattle rattle.   No oil pressure.  Climb under and find oil pissing out, torch highlights a newly formed metal flap in the crankcase.   Hmmmm.  Bank account death rattle.  2 snapped rods......

[Pauly]

My wife's race car recently got a death rattle and no fuel pump relay is gunna fix that.

ouch  

I feared the worst.  I thought you were going to report a repeat of my GT2 Herr Mezger death rattle.  Second gear, 5000 rpm, BANG rattle rattle.   No oil pressure.  Climb under and find oil pissing out, torch highlights a newly formed metal flap in the crankcase.   Hmmmm.  Bank account death rattle.  2 snapped rods......

Damn.. 

After rebuilding mine, spending more than the cars worth on the engine.. Priming the oil pump was the single most scariest thing in the world. The engine spinning with out oil. Thankfully pressure built up. 

[Skidmarks]

I feared the worst.  I thought you were going to report a repeat of my GT2 Herr Mezger death rattle.  Second gear, 5000 rpm, BANG rattle rattle.   No oil pressure.  Climb under and find oil pissing out, torch highlights a newly formed metal flap in the crankcase.   Hmmmm.  Bank account death rattle.  2 snapped rods......

Thankfully no. But I am getting my '04 CS back next week after its full rebuild. As reported elsewhere in the forum, the previous owner took it out for one last spin the day before I picked it up and managed to give the thing a big enough rev that it broke chain tensioners and some other stuff and deposited all sorts of shit throughout the motor.  

When we pulled it apart, also found some weird wear marks on some of the bearings.  A sign of very patchy servicing I think.  To be fair, the previous owner wouldn't have known what he did.  

I just noticed some odd sounds during the first few days of driving but testament to the strength of the things, the engine still pulled well.  And then we split the filter and .... new Pistons, barrels and rebuilding the heads ....  Crank and rods were fine. 

Snapped rods?  Never heard that before. Well, not 2 anyway. Is/was your engine stock? 

[spiller]

Thankfully no. But I am getting my '04 CS back next week after its full rebuild. As reported elsewhere in the forum, the previous owner took it out for one last spin the day before I picked it up and managed to give the thing a big enough rev that it broke chain tensioners and some other stuff and deposited all sorts of shit throughout the motor.  

When we pulled it apart, also found some weird wear marks on some of the bearings.  A sign of very patchy servicing I think.  To be fair, the previous owner wouldn't have known what he did.  

I just noticed some odd sounds during the first few days of driving but testament to the strength of the things, the engine still pulled well.  And then we split the filter and .... new Pistons, barrels and rebuilding the heads ....  Crank and rods were fine. 

Snapped rods?  Never heard that before. Well, not 2 anyway. Is/was your engine stock? 

Wow that is surprising to hear given how robust these motors are supposed to be. What do you think he did to it...money shift? Any symptoms other than metal deposits in the oil? Now you've got me worried and  i'm going to be listening like a mouse when I drive mine next! It is apparent that GT3s are very strong cars, yet they have a low tolerance for unskilled drivers with poor operating skills!

[Skidmarks]

Wow that is surprising to hear given how robust these motors are supposed to be. What do you think he did to it...money shift? Any symptoms other than metal deposits in the oil? Now you've got me worried and  i'm going to be listening like a mouse when I drive mine next! It is apparent that GT3s are very strong cars, yet they have a low tolerance for unskilled drivers with poor operating skills!

I'm getting the ECU read today. The car is on the dyno being run in as well as clearing all those pesky fault codes that come up after a heart operation. Let just say that my guess is an unintentional talent deficit resulting in a big rev on the downchange. Don't sweat it.  Treat it hard but understand that 10000 rpm was not in the design brief when Herr Mezger was doing his thang. 

Nope, other than the wierd shit wear caused by the owner not giving it regular love, it was all in the only shift. 

BTW,  I took my 99 out for a run today. Repeatedly introduced it to 7600. My son was with me and he quite insightfully observed "Dad, this car actually sounds a lot like your air cooled cars". And he's right. 

As for the howl as it approaches the limiter - oh dear.  It might be tame in the power stakes compared to what came later but the way the thing makes its power, you feel the Vario working and then even better, tip it into a turn and power out whilst Mr Bump Steer says "hi!" - BIG fun. 

So, ignore the failure in my car - it's an aberration caused by misuse and unsympathetic abuse.

I'll post what the ECU reveals as soon as I have it. 

PS - whilst spanking the 99 today, I was reflecting on the differences between it and the RSCS I had.  That car was a blast, raw, involving - best of breed. And yet, on any measure, subjective and objective, the 99 GT3 is the superior car by a mile.  As is every GT P car since. 

And the best bit, you can get that superior experience for around $500,000 less than the cost of an RS. Yes, 150-200 K is still serious wedge but if you can go there, you're not missing a thing in not having the RS experience. 

[DJM]

Snapped rods?  Never heard that before. Well, not 2 anyway. Is/was your engine stock? 

Peter Fitzgerald certainly knew of it, diagnosed mine over the phone, confirmed once engine was apart.  Has seen it plenty of times.  Mine has EVOMS turbos and tune so a bit more boost (and about +120hp).  I understand factory rods are no different from GT3 and are the weak Link in turbo engines.  The replacement engine (stock 996TT) that we rebuilt had banana rods ready to fail:

 

[spiller]

I'm getting the ECU read today. The car is on the dyno being run in as well as clearing all those pesky fault codes that come up after a heart operation. Let just say that my guess is an unintentional talent deficit resulting in a big rev on the downchange. Don't sweat it.  Treat it hard but understand that 10000 rpm was not in the design brief when Herr Mezger was doing his thang. 

Nope, other than the wierd shit wear caused by the owner not giving it regular love, it was all in the only shift. 

BTW,  I took my 99 out for a run today. Repeatedly introduced it to 7600. My son was with me and he quite insightfully observed "Dad, this car actually sounds a lot like your air cooled cars". And he's right. 

As for the howl as it approaches the limiter - oh dear.  It might be tame in the power stakes compared to what came later but the way the thing makes its power, you feel the Vario working and then even better, tip it into a turn and power out whilst Mr Bump Steer says "hi!" - BIG fun. 

So, ignore the failure in my car - it's an aberration caused by misuse and unsympathetic abuse.

I'll post what the ECU reveals as soon as I have it. 

PS - whilst spanking the 99 today, I was reflecting on the differences between it and the RSCS I had.  That car was a blast, raw, involving - best of breed. And yet, on any measure, subjective and objective, the 99 GT3 is the superior car by a mile.  As is every GT P car since. 

And the best bit, you can get that superior experience for around $500,000 less than the cost of an RS. Yes, 150-200 K is still serious wedge but if you can go there, you're not missing a thing in not having the RS experience. 

cue 99 vs 04 comparison when you get the 04 going. Very interested to hear what that ECU says. GT3 is an engaging/fun/at-times-scary animal when going slightly fast on a twisty road. Your son is on the money....having spent a fair bit of time behind the wheel of my father's 930, both engines have very similar sounding undertones. 

[Peter M]

Skids

Just so I'm clear, is the noise just from one of the cam chain tensioners bleeding down over the following week or two?

thanks

[Skidmarks]

Skids

Just so I'm clear, is the noise just from one of the cam chain tensioners bleeding down over the following week or two?

thanks

To be honest, I don't know.  Could well be but it sounds like the whole orchestra is warming up after a big night out.  I'll ask the question though. 

cue 99 vs 04 comparison when you get the 04 going. Very interested to hear what that ECU says. GT3 is an engaging/fun/at-times-scary animal when going slightly fast on a twisty road. Your son is on the money....having spent a fair bit of time behind the wheel of my father's 930, both engines have very similar sounding undertones. 

Might just do that. If it's good enough for Chris Harris, it's good enough for me! 

[firstone]

@DJM Makes your car very appealing. Just sayn.

[spiller]

I heard the rattle Skidmarks is talking about this morning when I started my car for the first time in 3 weeks. Sounds like a bunch of ball bearings being vigorously shaken around in a tin can for 1 second after start up. I like the sound 

[vl gra]

Spiller I think you would be the only one you sicko!!!

 

[spiller]

Spiller I think you would be the only one you sicko!!!

 

They all do it...it's character!

[Skidmarks]

They all do it...it's character!

I agree ... But I still don't like it!!

And if the guys who build and maintain them worry ... I worry. 

[Skidmarks]

They all do it...it's character!

So - the cause. Oil drains out of the lifters. 

[StevepGT3]

It`s just noisily  expressing its displeasure of not being started for a month.

[edgy]

I just got used to it, I've not noticed much difference between the 04 & 07 cars either.  

It mainly seems to be worse from lack of use, if I start the car at least weekly, it's fine... Come back to it after a month or two, different story, it should almost go with a Bunnings announcement like  "Clean up in aisle 18, nuts & bolts"  

 

 

 

[James P]

Thats nothing try starting a cup car after a long layup & hear the strange sounds 

[Peter M]

So - the cause. Oil drains out of the lifters. 

Thanks Skids for that advice.  If that's the case it absolutely harmless and nothing to worry about.  Character is a good description.

Regards

[Skidmarks]

Thanks Skids for that advice.  If that's the case it absolutely harmless and nothing to worry about.  Character is a good description.

Regards

I given the racket it makes and the fact that my engine guy doesn't like it, not sure it's harmless. Anything bashing that hard can't be good.  

 

Thats nothing try starting a cup car after a long layup & hear the strange sounds 

The newer ones don't make the racket.  My 2011 Cup is remarkably subdued in that dept. 

It`s just noisily  epressing its displeasure of not being started for a month.

Never a truer word spoken 

Well, well, well. 

Have just received the data on the over rev.

04's have 2 rev ranges. 1 and 2. 

Total engine operating hours logged as 735.6

The previous owner loved the limiter - range 1 ignitions report when it's hit the limiter (8200) Number of ignitions in range 1 - 65535.   The last one that went there was at 731.9 hours.

Drum roll ....... Range 2 ignition - which is over 8800 (remember, the rev limit is 8200) was 586 ignitions. Not long. But long enough. And speaking to the guys who should know, to chase that sort of internal carnage, it would have had to be well into the high 9's. 

The kicker?  The big one happened at 707.3 hours. 

So, it was driven with all the internal damage for oh, let me do the maths .... 28 HOURS!!  2 hours of which was me before I couldn't stand it any more and had the thing looked at  

Little wonder at the other damage given all that crap was floating around.  

So, now I know.