How fast is fast enough?

[hugh]

This is something that I have been thinking about for some time.............

How fast is fast enough?

At a time where I believe cars (more specifically high powered sports cars) go way faster than what the "common man" can handle, have we indeed reached a time where technology has truly elapsed driving talent? Are new sports cars just so good that anyone (and I mean really anyone) can drive fast? 

Whilst I can see this as being a benefit of technology, especially in terms of safety, but has this come at the cost of making driver input less required and as a result dumbing down the need for well skilled drivers in the pursuit of chasing speed? 

I find this interview with Bana and Clarkson enjoyable and it touches on this specific point (some Saturday night viewing for you!);

Am I just getting old and seeing less and less need for faster and faster cars or do I need to lighten up and get on the trolley? Maybe I'm missing the point but I'm curious to hear others thoughts......................

Keeping in mind that a lot of us live in Victoria where everywhere is now 40km/h zones. 

[bear924]

This is something I also reflect on. If you purchase a car with a plan of not tracking the car, what era Porsche hits the balance of modern performance and comfort while still providing an entertaining drive at normal (or even enthusiastic) road speeds?

There's a PFA post somewhere about peak car... the period where cars advances stopped making them better driver's cars. I'm of the view that peak Porsche is somewhere in the 964/ 993/ 996 era. Suggest that different versions of peak, may have happened at different times. For example, perhaps peak turbo was the 996 (the last with a hint of lag??), where perhaps peak NA was the 993?? If someone could decide, please let me know so I can go and buy my next Porsche.

[hugh]

This is something I also reflect on. If you purchase a car with a plan of not tracking the car, what era Porsche hits the balance of modern performance and comfort while still providing an entertaining drive at normal (or even enthusiastic) road speeds?

I was only having this exact discussion today, hence what prompted my post. I was getting all sorts of scenarios thrown at me where I was referring to getting exited over an old Cooper 'S' over pretty much any modern super car. "What about the new Veyron" and so on, where my reply was well how fast do you want or need to go to have fun? You can drive a Veyron at 400km/h but still get the same buzz from the Cooper at 120km/h so where do you draw the line? 

There is probably a computer simulation reference in there too where driving could risk becoming sterile and its easier to risk life and limb in front of a monitor as opposed to a windscreen. Food for thought....................

[turboT]

912's - the new future 

[hugh]

912's - the new future 

Especially LHD ones. 

[LeeM]

I wholeheartedly agree that today's cars are well beyond most drivers abilities. 

 I'm only going to mention Porsches here, as that's all I care about. All other brands I have no interest in whatsoever, and I may unintentionally offend some owners, yet sorry, it's my opinion. 

 You take anything from a stock 996 or Cayman, to the latest GT3, and those cars do most of the work for you. All you have to do is turn the key, hit the loud pedal and steer it. If you've only driven a 'modern' Porsche, you would get the shock of your life driving an older one, and I guarantee trying to drive as quick as you would in an SC as you would in a GT3, you'd end up in the bushes or guardrail! 

 You have to DRIVE old cars, not just point the thing in the intended direction of travel, and that's where I think owners of these modern cars end up crashing their brains out. They can't drive, and it's the car doing all the work. I don't profess to being a great driver at all, yet put me in a modern car on the road or a racetrack, and I'll be a helluva lot quicker than I imagine I would be now (never done a tracks in my 911, and probably never will) 

 Just my opinion. If you can afford to buy a mega dollar HyperCar just for road use, why? You couldn't dream of exploring the limits of the cars capability, nor your own driving ability, so don't think you're a better driver than someone in an old air cooled, so why bother? Buy a car you can DRIVE, not just flick on traction control and think you're Mark Webber! 

 As for other cars like Veyrons etc, they're just for posing.....in my opinion

[Carrera28]

I suspect each of our thoughts becomes a horses for courses, as we face our unique circumstances, budgets, roads driven and numbers of cars.

Well before they became popular again, a number of the perhaps more erudite car journalists and personalities always raved about the 912 and the 924 as being the cars to have.  While the smaller engines meant lower power they also meant lower weight and provided sweet handling and huge doses of feedback and 'road feel' to the driver.  Hustling a 924 or 912 quickly became more about the driver's skills and the organic element in the equation remained critical.  Personally I can see the appeal in a really well sorted version of either car, on a beautiful sunny Sunday morning driving along the great ocean road with no traffic (it's a fantasy so I can pretend no traffic as well!!) the combination of mechanical feedback, noise and driver involvement would be sublime. 

I owned an original MX5 with the 1.6 litre motor.  It was not fast in its day and is now is positively anemic in a straight line.  However, with a sports exhaust, coilovers, bigger tyres, and every cross brace you could fit; when you dropped the roof and took it through some twisty roads it just was so much fun.  I spent ages dreaming ways to improve that car and extra horsepower was never near the top of my list of things that would make the car better.  Sure with an unlimited budget I would have done horsepower but it was never a burning issue.

My 996 has done terrible things for my drivers licence, so I cannot imagine what a properly fast Porsche would do   and other than track days cannot see what extra horsepower does in the real world other than shred my driver's licence.

The more I think about it, with their dropping values the perfect Porsche is a 986 2.7 Boxster, if you can only afford to have one Porsche in your garage.  Still modern enough to have ABS, airbags, decent stereo and air conditioning. Absolutely sublime handling and modern enough but still requiring significant input and commitment from the organic interface to make the car hustle.  Modern car reliability with some safety and the ability to make you smile when you drive it at speeds that are not going to get you locked up and you could use it just as easily for your commute as you could for an early morning Sunday drive.

[Raven]

Some may disagree but I have always had fun and great driving experiences in small cars that are under powered ,,Why because you tend to thrash the crap out of them and try and keep up as much momentum as possible through the bends and stay on the throttle as longs possible because the little engine is going to die in the ass if you get off the gas or dare use the brakes ,,,,That sort of driving is about keeping the speed and momentum up at all costs ,,I am certain many on the forum can relate to that as we all would have had small under powered cars when we first got our licences and started driving ...

[Oldmxnut]

I agree, speed isn't any fun or evokes any engagement or feeling.  I think also one of reasons, manual porsches all of a sudden in the new generations are the choice for drivers who drive. Its an aspect that doesnt work perfectly every time.. 

[LeeM]

I suspect each of our thoughts becomes a horses for courses, as we face our unique circumstances, budgets, roads driven and numbers of cars.

Well before they became popular again, a number of the perhaps more erudite car journalists and personalities always raved about the 912 and the 924 as being the cars to have.  While the smaller engines meant lower power they also meant lower weight and provided sweet handling and huge doses of feedback and 'road feel' to the driver.  Hustling a 924 or 912 quickly became more about the driver's skills and the organic element in the equation remained critical.  Personally I can see the appeal in a really well sorted version of either car, on a beautiful sunny Sunday morning driving along the great ocean road with no traffic (it's a fantasy so I can pretend no traffic as well!!) the combination of mechanical feedback, noise and driver involvement would be sublime. 

 I'll respectfully disagree there mate

After a 4 year restoration of my 912 with a bigger 1720 engine that was fully rebuilt,,and the anticipation of having a great time in the hills as I had read on many 912 forums or posts on many websites had me very excited, yet to say the car was the biggest let down of my vehicle ownership life is an understatement!

 If you want a car to pop down to the shops in, or do the cafe/ cars and coffee run, or even for arguments sake a leisurely run in the hills, fantastic! To even contemplate driving it in the hills at speed to keep up with your mates in their 911's or even a 944 where there are actually steepish hills will have you less than impressed in my opinion. My old 1600 58 Beetle would have eaten the 912 for breakfast! I don't miss it

  Don't believe the hype with 912's. They might be a bit lighter and handle a bit better, yet there is no substitute for horespower/ torque

[Gavn]

For me - anything more modern/powerful than a 2.7 Boxster is too much and not as much fun on windy roads that I enjoy driving on .  I was bored at responsible speeds in our 997S & similarly in the 9964S.  993's, to me, feel too heavy as do 964's.  So, peak power/weight for me is 2.7 in a modern Boxster/cayman package or 2.7 to 3.2 in an air cooled (never tried a 3.4).  I guess then Peak Porsche (in a technical sense) for me is late 80's to early 90's.  Anything more modern doesn't push my buttons much at all (have not had a proper go in a gt3 so if someone wants to lend me one for. a month I can make a more considered statement).  Unless you're actually racing or in a life defining rush, speed itself matters little - just the fun factor.  If you're someone who finds fun in looking at the speedo....then it's different but I passed that point many years back....right before I got my first 911.

It would be interesting to see how many people here have progressed to newer and higher hp Porsches (with perhaps less thrills at any given speed) as opposed to going back in hp and years.

[tazzieman]

I just aim to drive as smoothly as possible within reasonable limits and respecting the conditions. It's pretty easy to get an adrenaline rush , just veer off and head towards a tree or cliff - or fang past a police car. Driving the perfect line and nailing the brake-gear equation beats breakneck speed - for me.

On the track , everything changes. Except your insurance XS doesn't count for anything. 

New Porsches are great for people who can't handle the difficulty & danger of old Porsches 

[clutch-monkey]

i'm having a great time with 100hp/980kg . another car 120hp/990kg. slow but hilarious.

the E36 m3 is a good compromise, 3.6L 911 Sc is starting to be a bit too serious for fun road driving

[hugh]

Some may disagree but I have always had fun and great driving experiences in small cars that are under powered ,,Why because you tend to thrash the crap out of them and try and keep up as much momentum as possible through the bends and stay on the throttle as longs possible because the little engine is going to die in the ass if you get off the gas or dare use the brakes ,,,,That sort of driving is about keeping the speed and momentum up at all costs ,,I am certain many on the forum can relate to that as we all would have had small under powered cars when we first got our licences and started driving ...

Totally agree.

I would say generally driving at an "enthusiast" level requires being on (or near) the limit as that's where all the fun is. Cars with lesser power/grip etc allow for you to explore their limits without necessarily making your life flash before your eyes. You get the opportunity to really drive the car to get the most out of it, that's what makes you in effect a better driver. The limit on newer cars given how capable they are requires a lot more commitment and as a result the risks are increased (higher speed accident, loss of licence etc).  

That's also why hire cars are so fast and fun to drive! 

[rego]

I take the power increase in modern cars as a positive because if you don’t need crazy power but enjoy the twisty’s or the track the time has never been better as you can get a new car that scratches your itch for less money!

Yes, the highest end cars are stupid fast and a lot of people that buy them can't drive them to their capability but if someone wants to spend their hard earned on a car like that it's their choice and the R&D from those cars will filter down into the mid-range cars of tomorrow.

Judging by the responses in here it seems I'm in the minority that don't enjoy driving older cars, to me they don't feel good to drive and I like a stiffer chassis with more precise steering. I can however recognise the joy of a less technical car which I guess is what the older cars provide for people (I recently sold an NC MX5 which I loved for the last 5 years and did over 40 track days in).

[Brow]

how long is a piece of string? 

since the dawn of civilisation man has craved more of any thing that brings him joy  , more speed = more opportunity for joy and for so long as we are emotional irrational animals that will never change. A speed machine is craved because they either want to go fast or want to know (and others to know) they can go fast if they want. For some faster enough is that fraction that is faster than your mate or neighbour or the car on you tube and that is an endless cycle ( hehehe).

Full utilisation (for the vast majority  of performance car owners)  of a cars potential is seldom approached, especially with any frequency. My guess is that the unused reserves of speed,braking and handling serve to satisfy the owner by simply them knowing their car is capable of awesome feats, which are known to them thru reading or watching others drive the car to its potential. 

Similar story with 4WD owners, very few use the car to its real capabilities, but they still want increasingly capable off road vehicles.

I simply think its great that a person gets a kick out of owning a particular car , I don't care what that kick is, whether its thrashing it or polishing it, its their money and their choice and as technology advances and diminishes the drivers involvement and feedback I personally have ( hence my extra tight 6.2 GT3)  and will steer away from that but many others will not be effected  because most don't value or sense that driver dimension.

 

But then I think our Mr Walter Rohl once said something like " A car is just fast enough when you have fear just before getting into it. " I could be wrong on that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[D2000]

I often think it would be nice to have a car I could rev high on my daily commute such as a GT86 or mx5. Simply can't do that in my 996 i

[Brow]

I often think it would be nice to have a car I could rev high on my daily commute such as a GT86 or mx5. Simply can't do that in my 996 i

??? but anyway maybe try a s2000

[DJM]

Did I inspire you today Hugh.....?

For me it's about where the limit of handling occurs.  Give me light weight, narrow wheels and RWD every day of the week.  

On the road, I want a car that can be exploited at not too illegal speed.  This to me is perfect and around 200hp bit under a tonne:

https://youtu.be/_84URY_QXPE

 On track I like similar recipe but add more horsepower because you can use it and I like a track car to be a bit SCARY.  Forget the big wings and 315 tyres - that makes you go faster but you lose the playfulness.  It's not about lap times, it's about fun.  You've seen me at track days, I hop out grinning and ringing wet.  I had to work at it.

i can't think of 1 new car I could buy that fits this brief.  The enemy is weight - add weight then add power to compensate but you end up with numb and boring.  Every manufacturer continues to chase power as their cars get fat and lazy.  AMG, BMW M etc all do nothing for me.

Best drivers car I had was 600kg clubman.  Your arse felt every ripple and nuance of the road.  I hopped in that thing at every spare moment whereas the GT2 often sat unused.  I used to drive it in the rain with a ski jacket and beanie.  

So I concur!  Keep your McLaren, give me the Datto.

[DJM]

I'm of the view that peak Porsche is somewhere in the 964/ 993/ 996 era. 

I don't agree, my first Porsche was 964 C2 manual, bought over the net but when I got it home and drove it I was disappointed.  It felt heavy and a bit ponderous where I was expecting nimble and lithe. 

 I was bored at responsible speeds in our 997S & similarly in the 9964S.  993's, to me, feel too heavy as do 964's.

It would be interesting to see how many people here have progressed to newer and higher hp Porsches (with perhaps less thrills at any given speed) as opposed to going back in hp and years.

fascinating to see 964s rocket up in value after I sold mine in disappointment.  Perhaps some owners do consider 964 as the peak.

I thought more power would solve my problem - GT2 had so much power but also so much tyre (315s).  It  twas certainly exciting to drive but the limits are very high.   I probably should have gone from 964 back in time not forward.  But the early cars seem either rubbish or $$ which is probably why I need to look outside the brand now.

[KGB]

Perhaps some owners do consider 964 as the peak.

 Or a 3.2 if ABS and a/c are not of any importance.

The guys buying Veyrons and Maclarens are buying them for other reasons, and levels of appreciation.  Ego and vanity drive us all to a greater or lesser degree, combining that with personal circumstances may equal power and speed at the brochure phenomena.  Whatever floats your boat!    

 

 

 

 

[DJM]

There no doubt numbers sell - 0-100 bragging rights are important for some.  But numbers dont often directly translate into enjoyment.  

[KGB]

True for you and I, but not the wealthy concretors's son...

Horse's for course's.  But in pure performance providing enjoyment terms we're 15 years past peak.  It's a case of cars handling too well now in order to contain ridiculous power outputs and luxury feature weight.

[9er]

I have owned a GT2 and a respectable cross section of other Porsche cars and in my opinion my '67 912 is more enjoyable and involving to drive and own than most of them.

Classic cars are not for everyone....... and that's the way I like it.

 

[DJM]

Hence the 1602, 930 and cooper s in your signature.  Well played.