First P Car - Please recommend a daily driver

[smit2100]

 

 

my head hurts..... 

forgot the elevator speech. eg, Get a slightly messed with 996 turbo (tune, exhaust Bluetooth module) for way under 120k, pay cash if you can, redraw against a mortgage if don't have the cash.  A water cooled  P car if on a novated lease and going into it with the intention of driving it daily and being available to drive for 365 days of the year makes no logical financial sense to me unless you have nothing better to do with your money having covered your mortgage, super and other investments and want to reduce your tax bill and cash flow is not an issue

[Philbee]

What the hell, I'll chime in. I make 2 points:

1) my personal fetish is I love having a special car as a weekender, that's my p-car. Nothing I love better than ripping the cover off on the weekend for an SMT or just a cruise to have a "dak" coffee, then in between, pampering & buffing the little blighter! Buts that's me... What do you like? Big long daily driving to work in a p-car is good but it can make the experience kinda routine... For me.

2) a mate of mine owned a 993 then later owned a 996... servicing and costs were significantly different (less in 996) on the basic maint stuff. 

3) if you can afford to spend $120k on a daily... Good luck to you. You're a better man than me, gunga!

ok, 3 points! (But nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition, right?)

 

[LeeM]

Please don't buy a 997.2 as the market is very small and I don't want you to push the price up for Mike and I!

 

For $120k and a young bloke like you Vladt, I reckon:

$20k Korean daily driver

$60k Cayman

$40k on either: travel, education, hookers, racehorses, coke, Ducati's, velvet jumpsuits or combination thereof.

 

 

Don't belief Simon, he wouldn't DD a RS nowadays.  And that's my point, buy something you can afford to use, not something you can't afford to use.  And you have to make that decision in context of what else is going on in your life.  Consequently only you can decide that.  For the rest of us, you've given us a few minutes distraction from mowing the lawn.   

This ^^

  Personally, doing the daily grind in a Porsche would wear off pretty quickly I reckon (unless you travel twisty roads every day). I know I'd be paranoid about some inattentive goon nudging me at the lights or wherever, and I'm far from fussy with my old SC

 What Peter has posted above makes much more sense to me, but 2 yearly rego and insurance costs would get expensive. If it's a Porsche you must have for a daily, A Cayman S would give you incredible value for money for a car that is only a year or 2 old under your budget

 Drive a couple of cars and compare them. We can all say a 996/997/ etc is what you should look at, though ultimately, only you can decide what you like

[vtsyrlin]

Gents, First of all, thank you all for taking time to explain the intricacies of P-car ownership without condescendence and 
criticizing my ignorance. I thought I had it all clear in my head but after reading yesterday's posts, I see  things in a different light now.

Lets establish few things from the start:
1. P-cars do not make the best daily drivers - yes they can be used daily, but like many of you've said: The novelty will wear off rather quickly. 

2. I keep on reading about people spending big $$$ on rebuilding/repairing early model 964/930/NA996. It's almost a guaranteed that every other thread
contains references to mechanical work required to keep these cars running. While I do like wrenching and don't mind improving things, I am also very busy with work/kids and other commitments. Buying an older car to become mechanic's best friend isn't my idea of fund. (money notwithstanding)

3. From the financial standpoint buying NA997 isn't all that smart due to all the reasons listed. Depreciation is definitely one of them. Just looking at what NA996 worth now ~ circa 65-80k one can see that the depreciation loss is quite significant to say the least.Obviously everyone has different financials to contend with: 
Mine: my trips between clients allow me to claim some of the car payments/depreciation/running costs on tax. Being a consultant, I have my own company, so the leasing can be done in several different ways. I was thinking of simply borrowing against my mortgage at ~ 4% rather than going with novated/hire purchase at much higher interest rate.

4. DD - this is where it gets confusing. I feel that what most of you are trying to tell me is not to do it. (albeit it can be done).

In fact how many guys on this forum DD their own P-cars?

With all of the above in mind, I am now inclined to keep my M135 as a daily and look into 996 Turbo or 997 Turbo cars for weekend fun. Is there much difference between them? I assume both use similar Mezger engine?

CaCBB - I already hear "we are paying you too much" when parking my M135 at the customers. I could only imagine what would they be thinking if they see P-car parked outside

Smit2100 - Thanks heaps for a such a detailed response. It is your response that made me reconsider NA997 towards something much more exciting. I've just imagined sitting at the traffic lights on Nepean hwy being unable to even get into the usable boost. And you are right .. there are so many cameras, patrols cars that loosing your licence would be inevitable.

How much shall I expect to pay for 996 Turbo with a low kms? (ie under 80k kms for example) How about 997 Turbo?

If I was to use my P-car for weekend fun, then I would love to do some "small" mods to improve performance/fun factor.
So the pragmatic approach would be to keep my M135i as a daily and use the 996/7 Turbo as a fun weekender?

If you are in Melbourne, I would love to do a key swap and have a go in your 996 Turbo. The one I've driven was stock auto and
I "barely" opened her up. I usually don't thursh other people's automobiles.

Who is Symsy? What does 5k advocate fee gets you? Does he import or finds something good locally? 

So gents, in terms of kms traveled, what is the sweet spot for 996/997 Turbo cars?
Without being too imposing, could I also ask what you guys are actually paying for them? ( apparently there is a significant difference between advertised
prices and what people are actually getting for them 2nd hand)

So gents, please bear with me, as I have only embarked on this journey and need time to get my bearings.  Any advice and suggestions would be much appreciated

 

[edgy]

Your issue is easily solved with a Macan. 

If I did not ride a  bicycle to work daily, this is the one in my garage I'd pick to drive day in, day out without hesitation, it is wonderful car to spend lots of time in. 

I can't say the same about my 997, only because I know what its like when you give it the full potatoes, its lame driving it in traffic tbh. 

[SimonN]

2. I keep on reading about people spending big $$$ on rebuilding/repairing early model 964/930/NA996. It's almost a guaranteed that every other thread
contains references to mechanical work required to keep these cars running. While I do like wrenching and don't mind improving things, I am also very busy with work/kids and other commitments. Buying an older car to become mechanic's best friend isn't my idea of fund. (money notwithstanding)

 

Just as a counter point, threads  that talk about the car starting first time, every time and driving without any problems are rather boring, so you tend to only get stories where there are stories. I have owned 2 Porsches. One was built in 1992. The other was built in 1985. I have covered something like 40,000 kms and while I know this is tempting fate, to date, i have had one breakdown, a failed fuel pump. My wife's (new) Audi TT she had some time back was less reliable. One of our X5's chewed its rear diff when it was 4 years old (great support from BMW to sort it). If you have a proper inspection done, only go for cars with good compression and leakdown numbers etc. I would argue that the risks aren't actually any worse than other pre-owned cars.

[sleazius]

I daily my 997 which I've done for 2.5yrs now (although my car is being retired from this role in 3 weeks time). Its definitely doable. The difference that I have to the average schmo is I'm not in start / stop traffic on a daily basis so my definition of daily driving, and yours, may be vastly different.

I don't agree with the people who've said that driving a P car daily diminishes the awesome factor. In fact I find its the opposite - have an issue at work where I'm pissed off, walk down to the carpark, take one look at my car, think to myself 'this is f-ing awesome!' and blast off. By the time I get home I've got a smile on my dial every time, annoyances of work long since forgotten.

Financially my 997 is cheaper to run than my wife's 2012 ML Mercedes, so for late model P cars, the maintenance isn't a deal breaker. The older the car the worse it gets of course, but the 996 / 7 (with the exception of IMS) were made to be driven.

You can't compare the depreciation of a 997 to a 996. There are a few reasons why, but the dumbest one which may also be the biggest factor of all is the headlights, its the only 911 that looks different to the rest so therefore is worth less than the others. Makes no sense to car guys, but to posers, which lets face it make up a good proportion of late model P car owners, the fact that you can pick a 996 is different is enough reason not to buy one.

Given your budget, and the fact that you're happy with a PDK car, if it were me, I'd be parking my backside in a 997.2 no question and daily driving it. Relatively rare, depreciation will not be as big a factor as a result, just negotiate hard on the way in and get one with as few km as possible. If everyone else has swayed you, and you're now looking for a weekend car, 996 Turbo is probably currently on the upswing price wise and is the sweet spot for performance per $ spent.

Pricing seems to get people very upset so I'm not going to go into it too much, but I will say this, offer what you think its worth, not what someone is 'asking'. Be prepared to walk away, there are lots of people who think their car is worth big dollars when they simply aren't. Advertised prices are generally not what the cars are selling for, and I'm talking specifically about 997s here, especially 997.2. Because you're looking at PDK cars, you've got a lot of choice, so make some offers and see if something sticks. If you were after a manual you'd be screwed like the rest of us!

[Joshstix]

I have to agree, dailying your 911 is great.  I daily my 996, unless I have to park at a train station to go into the city.

 

I know its a cliche but "life's too short to drive boring cars".

 

Personally I already own far too many expensive toys that I only get to use on weekends and special occasions. I wouldn't be able to justify spending so much on a "toy car" if I didn't use it whenever possible.

[vtsyrlin]

sleazius - you are retiring 997 in favour of ?

Unfortunately most of my driving to work is start/stop traffic however there are days when I get a free run or have a job further away from the city. Overall, I am going to keep my M135 as a daily dependable. Now, back to P-car. I know you didn't want to talk prices, but I have absolutely no feel (yet) what a particular car should be worth? Hence difficulty in making the right offer. What should 997.2 should be worth with reasonable kms and full service history? You say "negotiate hard" but could I offer 120k for a car advertised for 150?

I am more than happy with PDK (my M135 has 1 similar) so I could definitely forgo the manual. 

Are there any reputable 2nd hand dealers in Melbourne ?

[Joshstix]

If you are adamant about having the Porsche as a weekender only and keep the 1M as a daily I'd suggest getting a 996 GT3.  If its a special occasions car then get one that's as special as possible

[micknine01]

If you are adamant about having the Porsche as a weekender only and keep the 1M as a daily I'd suggest getting a 996 GT3.  If its a special occasions car then get one that's as special as possible

Rob at RSR garage in melbs just listed a nice 996 GT3, give him a call, even just to discuss all of the above, he's a great guy to deal with

[vtsyrlin]

thanks for the pointer 901er. This looks like the 1:

https://www.carsales.com.au/dealer/details/Porsche-911-2004/OAG-AD-14249349/?Cr=10

162.5k - this sounds like a much higher price than people are quoting on this forum?

[micknine01]

thanks for the pointer 901er. This looks like the 1:

https://www.carsales.com.au/dealer/details/Porsche-911-2004/OAG-AD-14249349/?Cr=10

162.5k - this sounds like a much higher price than people are quoting on this forum?

I'm no GT3 expert, looks like low k's for its age? Someone else may chime in and give you the GT3 run down. 

[Simonk]

 

Wow, strange thread this one and some how you've been convinced by everyone in one day to get a weekend play car. It takes me at least a few months of strategic conversation to get that sort of approval from my wife! I like the 997.2 option as a daily drive so let me help you with a few things (I'm not shouting below, just highlighting my text)

Lets establish few things from the start:
1. P-cars do not make the best daily drivers - yes they can be used daily, but like many of you've said: The novelty will wear off rather quickly. WRONG! YOU'RE STUCK IN TRAFFIC STOPPED IN A BMWM135 OR A PORSCHE 997.2. WHY IS THE PORSCHE WORSE TO BE IN THAN THE BMW? YES THE NOVELTY OF PORSCHE OWNERSHIP WILL WEAR OFF QUICKER THAN IF IT WAS JUST A WEEKENDER BUT WHY DID YOU COME HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE? YOU WANTED A DAILY DRIVE, NOT A CAR YOU CAN TREASURE UNTIL YOU'RE TOO OLD AND PASS DOWN TO THE NEXT GENERATION.

2. I keep on reading about people spending big $$$ on rebuilding/repairing early model 964/930/NA996. It's almost a guaranteed that every other thread
contains references to mechanical work required to keep these cars running. While I do like wrenching and don't mind improving things, I am also very busy with work/kids and other commitments. Buying an older car to become mechanic's best friend isn't my idea of fund. (money notwithstanding) YES AND NO. YES THEY ARE EXPENSIVE TO REBUILD, NO THEY DON'T NECESSARILY BECOME YOUR MECHANICS BEST FRIEND AND ARE NO LESS RELIABLE THAN ANY OTHER EUROPEAN CAR. MAINTENANCE COSTS SHOULDN'T BE ANY MORE THAN YOUR BMW. THE INTERNET IS A SCARY PLACE BUT PUTTING ASIDE THE 996 ENGINE, PORSCHE ENGINES GENERALLY GET REBUILT BECAUSE THE CAR IS OLD AND STILL ALIVE. YOU DON'T REBUILD A BMW ENGINE, YOU THROW THE CAR IN THE BIN. NO ONE THROWS A 911 IN THE BIN.

3. From the financial standpoint buying NA997 isn't all that smart due to all the reasons listed. Depreciation is definitely one of them. Just looking at what NA996 worth now ~ circa 65-80k one can see that the depreciation loss is quite significant to say the least. THE DEPRECIATION ON A 997 OVER THE NEXT 4 YEARS WILL LIKELY BE LESS THAN THE HIT YOU COPPED WITH YOUR BMW. THE VALUE OF THE 996 HASN'T DROPPED IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS AND THE 996.2 SOME WILL ARGUE HAS INCREASED. THIS MEANS THE VALUE OF THE 997 CAN ONLY DROP SO FAR.

Obviously everyone has different financials to contend with: 
Mine: my trips between clients allow me to claim some of the car payments/depreciation/running costs on tax. Being a consultant, I have my own company, so the leasing can be done in several different ways. I was thinking of simply borrowing against my mortgage at ~ 4% rather than going with novated/hire purchase at much higher interest rate. USING THE CAR AS A WEEKENDER WILL CHANGE HOW VIABLE IT IS FROM A TAX POINT OF VIEW. ALSO, DO NOT PUT IT IN YOUR COMPANY UNLESS YOU USE THE LOG BOOK METHOD AND HAVE A HIGH BUSINESS USAGE

4. DD - this is where it gets confusing. I feel that what most of you are trying to tell me is not to do it. (albeit it can be done). I'M SCRATCHING MY HEAD AS TO WHY NOT SO I CAN'T AGREE WITH PEOPLE'S COMMENTS ON THIS. SINCE WHEN WAS IT NO LONGER A GOOD IDEA TO DRIVE A 7 YEAR OLD 911 EVERY DAY. CAN WE DRIVE A NEW 911 EVERYDAY OR ARE ALL 911S STRICLTY FOR PLAYING ON THE WEEKEND.  A 7 YEAR OLD 911 CAN BE JUST AS RELIABLE AS A NEW ONE. HELL, MY 17 YEAR OLD 911 IS JUST AS RELIABLE AS A NEW ONE.

I think the 997.2 PDK would be the ultimate daily driver. It has the ultimate watercooled 911 Carrera engine, free of IMS and bore scoring issues and it's NA, not like the new turbo Carreras. It has all the modern features you need. Some consider the 997.2 to be the greatest of the watercooled cars and I've heard of people selling their 991 and going back to the 997 because if its handling characteristics.

For a PPI, get it done at a reputable independent, not a Porsche dealership, you'll get a more comprehensive inspection for cheaper. Cascone in Moorabbin and Jocaro in Braeside are very good options. Try to get a low km example if you're going to DD it so that when you come to sell it, the kms are still reasonable.

Now, if you're convinced that a Porsche is only for a weekend, then I'd think about it a bit longer and look at every type of Porsche in your budget. The 997.2 may still be, but isn't necessarily the best option. Also test drive one. I haven't been in one or a 996 Turbo but I suspect the 996 Turbo will be a significantly different beast.

By the way, I'm in East Bentleigh driving a Blue 996 Carrera so give me a wave if you see me doing the weekly run to Red Rooster

[edgy]

thanks for the pointer 901er. This looks like the 1:

https://www.carsales.com.au/dealer/details/Porsche-911-2004/OAG-AD-14249349/?Cr=10

162.5k - this sounds like a much higher price than people are quoting on this forum?

Higher than what quoted numbers?

It is about the right number for the year/mileage and spec, Rob only sources good cars and prices them to the market, he doesn't play games with crack pipe pricing strategies and market manipulation like some of the other boutique dealers. He is about as honest as they get and a top guy to deal with before and after the deal is done.

I'm sorry, I wouldn't recommend a GT3 to just anyone as a daily grind, or even as a weekend car, if you need to put your kids in it, you can't because its only 2 seats, and if you are not going to track it you will most likely be frustrated by the ownership experience. 

If you have to have a 911 that performs, is practical, and sticks to the classic Porsche ethos, you've been steered correctly into the 997 C2/S by a few members already. 

I wouldn't think twice about DD a C2/S, if you are worried about depreciation then, there really isn't a cure for that.. you could look at some other variants that are more sound buying at present like the 996 C4S. 

 

 

[Cars And Coffee Byron Bay]

"Who is Symsy"

 

Surely this must be the quote of 2017? 

 

You'll get to know @symsy soon enough. He will find a car for you.

[sleazius]

The wife got a new car, so I'm going to daily her ML for a while till something interesting P car wise pops up. Currently there is nothing on the market that I'm keen on. It took me 2 years of looking to get the right 997.1, it'll probably take me another 2 years to find the next one. Some of the cars I'm after are quite rare so I won't be surprised if I'm waiting longer than 2 years.

You start getting specific with colours and spec, and chuck in the added complication of only wanting a manual, and the P car search can end up taking a while

Wow, strange thread this one and some how you've been convinced by everyone in one day to get a weekend play car. It takes me at least a few months of strategic conversation to get that sort of approval from my wife! 

Yeah, it feels very rushed right? Like something has to be bought ASAP? Even with the appropriate approvals in place from the minister for war (and finance) it takes me years to find the right car.

[K911]

Magnus likes the 997.2 for a daily.

 

[Simonk]

Yeah, it feels very rushed right? Like something has to be bought ASAP? Even with the appropriate approvals in place from the minister for war (and finance) it takes me years to find the right car.

I was thinking more about the advice people are giving him. He came looking for advice for a daily drive Porsche. If he didn't have the option of getting one for a weekender, the forum basically convinced him not to get one. WTF!

[ANF]

I don't daily drive as I work from home, I do how ever drive most days to either the shops, get my son or various other reasons (so maybe I do "daily drive"....). None of this is in peak times or very long distances. I have a Mercedes ML, which is pretty much our default family car, and my 928. I drive my 928 when ever I can and I had to use it solely for over a month recently as my wife was using the ML, I loved every second of it! Now that my 928 is in my garage in pieces I miss driving it! I would drive the 928 everyday if I could (I would find "excuses" as to why I needed to go out ), sometimes it is more practical to drive the ML, but when I do drive my Porsche I always take the long way home  I could never grow tired of driving it!

They are one of the best engineered and made cars on the planet designed to be driven fast or slow and everywhere in between.

[thumperson]

I DD my 981 Cayman and have done so for 2.5 yrs and 30,000 km in Brisbane peak hour. The car has performed the grind almost faultlessly. It is a great place to sit while inching forward and costs no more to run than my BMW. Screw the depreciation, I am going to be buried in it anyways. 

[Peter M]

Magnus likes the 997.2 for a daily.

Bugger, there goes the neighbourhood! 

[TINGY]

Bugger, there goes the neighbourhood! 

Pete clean out your inbox trying to send you a message.

[Philbee]

I was thinking more about the advice people are giving him. He came looking for advice for a daily drive Porsche. If he didn't have the option of getting one for a weekender, the forum basically convinced him not to get one. WTF!

I think  you/we/I have many P choices for a DD as has been slowly extracted from our chat (although with a few distractions along the way)...  

Yes for a DD on:

• Macan 
• Boxster 
• Cayman
• 996 or 997
• Man or auto - take yer pick
• Yes, a 993 or 964 (not for me though)
• The big puppy - cayenne (did anyone mention this one..?) (not for me though)

Take yer pick based on yer budget, driving style & preference, purpose, likes... and once selected, a final ok from SWMBO.

So, go forth young man, spend those spondoolahs on your DD P-car!!

The first 3 are my personal favourites, and the 997 - ok 4. 

[symsy]

Note all when you have an awesome car and you dont think of it daily or as a daily .. it evidently aint awesome enough you got the wrong car.

Otherwise daily get up early and you take the long interesting way,  to and from work . . 

Join a Gym in a good driveable location , go before or after work.

Weekends you buy fresh bread/croissant from the otherside of town and a latte from the best place to be seen cruising. Bring the woman home a chic croissant your cover will never be blown.

If in the city, choose the most tunnels, on ramps as the cops generally dont have a place to hide. Also the ports and commercial areas always good for a blast.

Come on urban outlaws…  Failing that whats wrong with 3am????