The forgotten RS

[tdc911]

38 minutes ago, RwGreeny said:

The .2 GT3 RS did not weigh less than the .2 Carrera

I think what Skids was initially trying to elude to in his great write up was that maybe At the time Porsche was trying to introduce a different naming strategy considering that the original GT3 was a direct replacement for the 993RS. Meaning that the 996.1 missed out on those two seemingly very important letters. Perhaps due to the board trying to create a new ‘legend’ with the introduction of the water cooled era

It weighed less than the GT3, hence with GT3 RS the GT3 is included in its name, not just 996 Carrera RS. Same with the 997 GT2 RS, it has more power and weighs less than the normal 997 GT2.

[RwGreeny]

31 minutes ago, tdc911 said:

It weighed less than the GT3, hence with GT3 RS the GT3 is included in its name, not just 996 Carrera RS. Same with the 997 GT2 RS, it has more power and weighs less than the normal 997 GT2.

But it didn’t weigh less than the base model 996. You aren’t comparing apples to apples with the respective model line up. To say the .1 GT3 is heavier than a Carrera is correct the same goes for .2 GT3 and RS they both are heavier than the base .2 Carrera. Even the 991 GT3 and RS is heavier than a standard Carrera. Does that mean that no RS should exist purely because they weigh more?

[Jason A]

1 hour ago, tdc911 said:

I am not saying the GT3 isn't a special car nor a big step up from the base Carrera model. What I am saying is the RS badge has always been used on models that had more power AND weighed less than their equivalent non-RS sibling.

I agree with what you are pointing out, but in this instance the GT3 was a step change away from the base car. Therefore most likely impossible to make it weigh less in road car form.

From the GT3 forward, the base 911 and the GT cars have been quite different in many ways.

[hugh]

I guess the next question is what “value” does the RS badge have? Would the MK1 be worth more if it had it? (Yes I hear you say), well, by how much? 
 

What if the 964 or 993 RS was badged a CS, would it be worth less than they are today? 
 

Is the current GT3 RS worth the extra $$$ over a non RS or is just that everyone wants one because it’s an “RS”? 
 

I’m not implying any bias, I’m just curious as to how much these 2 letters really mean to us. It’s clear that at least on a marketing level it works, but it is interesting to rethink if some of the cars we hold in such high regard were named differently (in the Mk1 GT3 case, not named at all) maybe they wouldn’t be as valuable or maybe worth more - no different a car, just referring to the naming here. 
 

Carrera is a name that used to mean the best, now it’s the base. But people still feel it’s special as the name has the history and associated connotations. 
 

Do these labels really still hold true or is it just modern marketing spin? I get it used to mean something, but does it actually still mean the same today? 
 

Sorry, a lot of questions here. My Saturday evening rambling thoughts being regurgitated as I’m trying to make sense of it all. 

[tdc911]

13 minutes ago, RwGreeny said:

But it didn’t weigh less than the base model 996. You aren’t comparing apples to apples with the respective model line up. To say the .1 GT3 is heavier than a Carrera is correct the same goes for .2 GT3 and RS they both are heavier than the base .2 Carrera. Even the 991 GT3 and RS is heavier than a standard Carrera. Does that mean that no RS should exist purely because they weigh more?

I am stating when the RS name is used. If the GT3 had have weighed less than the base Carrera, it may well have been called the 996 Carrera RS. The GT3 RS weighed less and had more power than the GT3, therefore Porsche felt it was worthy to add an RS to the script to become the GT3 RS. I am purely talking about the naming convention. 

[edgy]

18 minutes ago, hugh said:

Sorry, a lot of questions here. My Saturday evening rambling thoughts being regurgitated as I’m trying to make sense of it all. 

Just buy RS Hugh... don’t over think it 

[RwGreeny]

Either way they are all brilliant cars. But Hugh is right. If you scrap all the names and just look at the cars objectively for what the are and the experience they provide. A 964 RS isn’t so far away from a standard car. However a 993 RS is hugely different from its base model. Perhaps the same could be said for the .1 GT3.............

[hugh]

25 minutes ago, edgy said:

Just buy RS Hugh... don’t over think it 

I clearly am! 

[smit2100]

23 minutes ago, RwGreeny said:

Either way they are all brilliant cars. But Hugh is right. If you scrap all the names and just look at the cars objectively for what the are and the experience they provide. A 964 RS isn’t so far away for a standard car. However a 993 RS is hugely different from its base model. Perhaps the same could be said for the .1 GT3.............

The first sentence appears to sum up a view of the objective  function of a 996.1 gt3. The elevator  speech from the rest of the first paragragh could be construed as the  996.1 gt3  aint no defacto RS version.

https://www.total911.com/porsche-996-1-gt3-complete-buyers-guide/.

[sleazius]

3 hours ago, hugh said:

I guess the next question is what “value” does the RS badge have? Would the MK1 be worth more if it had it? (Yes I hear you say), well, by how much? 
 

What if the 964 or 993 RS was badged a CS, would it be worth less than they are today? 
 

Is the current GT3 RS worth the extra $$$ over a non RS or is just that everyone wants one because it’s an “RS”? 
 

I’m not implying any bias, I’m just curious as to how much these 2 letters really mean to us. It’s clear that at least on a marketing level it works, but it is interesting to rethink if some of the cars we hold in such high regard were named differently (in the Mk1 GT3 case, not named at all) maybe they wouldn’t be as valuable or maybe worth more - no different a car, just referring to the naming here. 
 

Carrera is a name that used to mean the best, now it’s the base. But people still feel it’s special as the name has the history and associated connotations. 
 

Do these labels really still hold true or is it just modern marketing spin? I get it used to mean something, but does it actually still mean the same today? 
 

Sorry, a lot of questions here. My Saturday evening rambling thoughts being regurgitated as I’m trying to make sense of it all. 

Everything changed once Volkswagen got fined billions in diesel gate. They had to come up with money fast and Porsche was the brand that made the lion’s share of the profit.

Both of the 991 RS, but especially the .2 were probably made in higher numbers than the ‘base GT3’. That is not to say that they aren’t special, just that they are by no means rare. I try not to be too cynical about this but they were largely pushed by marketers and bean counters to fix a very serious problem in the VW group as a whole. They leaned on the RS moniker heavily and in the post GFC exuberance, people paid big bucks for a non-motorsport derived RS (991.1).

I’ve gone on a tangent but it goes to the ethos of this thread. The 996 and 997 GT3 and RS cars were special, rare, and ‘Motorsport’ derived. Get to the 991 and that got chucked out the window. Add the engine design flaw (probably in the rush to get the moneymaker out the door by the bean counters) and I struggle to see how the RS badge (991.1) means anything at all other than an opportunity to fleece buyers of cash to fix an unrelated problem (diesel gate fines).

[DJM]

I’d say it’s very good business.  Build the RS name to the point where these days thousands of punters will pay whatever price you put on them and then make enough to satiate that demand.  Don’t let romance and ideals get in the way, the ONlY benefit to limiting volume is to drive the price even higher.  No need when they are already making a fortune per car.
 

You reckon they wouldn’t have built more 996 RS 20 years ago if they thought they could sell them all at a profit?  

Despite much higher volumes, they still manage to have buyers queuing for every new model.  I’m sure porsche are working right now on how to encourage buyers to continue jostling for position in the 992 GT3 RS allocation queue.

and diesel gate and associated fines came well after 991.1 RS was released?

[spiller]

^^^ agree with this. Porsche was nowhere near the company in 2004 as it is today. The 996 was copping a fair bit of hate still and the whole GT3 concept was very new. As far as I know, the only GT3RS ever to be built in limited numbers was the 997 4.0. The rest were all just whatever Porsche could roll out at the time/whatever they thought would sell. It so happens to be that the PDK offering drastically increased their audience and with time, they have been able to increase their capacity to produce these cars. Combine that with their predictable staged release of each model (i.e. GT3RS always coming roughly 24 months after GT3) and people know when it’s coming so they wait for the one they want (the RS). Thus, you have more GT3RS than you do GT3. Interestingly enough this is not unique to the 991. I’m fairly certain Porsche built more 997.2 GT3RS than they did 997.2 GT3. I’m sure someone here can dig up the production numbers.

[hugh]

4 minutes ago, spiller said:

The 996 was copping a fair bit of hate still and the whole GT3 concept was very new. As far as I know, the only GT3RS ever to be built in limited numbers was the 997 4.0. 

997 4.0 RS = 600 units built.

996 RS = 682 units built

Then comes the 997.1 RS @ 1106 units, then the MK1 GT3 @ 1868 units. 

[GTP911]

8 minutes ago, hugh said:

 MK1 GT3 @ 1868 units. 

Noting only 308 RHD.

"1858 Mk1 built total: Of those 308 in right hand drive of which 106 went to the UK, 90 to Australia and the rest to South Africa and Japan"

[PIC]

21 hours ago, Skidmarks said:

What he said.  GT3 996.2 is “better”. I’ve been lucky enough to have both in the shed at one stage.   The .2 is “smoother”.  And to be honest, not that far off the RS version in many respects.  I’ve still got the 6.1 Touring and it’s one I’d never sell (unless it was a 6.2 RS perhaps).   That it’s yellow like the  one in the launch video may have something to do with it ...

I've been lucky enough to have driven both the 6.1 & 6.2 GT cars almost back to back. I spent half a day in each before buying  and yes 6.2 is a better car. Apart from @spiller comments, for me the big difference is the gear shifter, a significant improvement on the 6.1 car. The other is the power output, I know the numbers state 20Hp but it does feel like much more. It's interesting to hear your comments @Skidmarks re the 6.2 not been far off the RS, I haven't driven one but I did suspect that.

For me I prefer all of the improvements the 6.2 has to offer especially the shifter and extra power, but most of all the speed yellow really does it for me.

All that said if the 6.1 car that I first drove was speed yellow it would be parked in my shed now.

My point......... both cars are exceptional, you can't go wrong with either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[edgy]

2 hours ago, hugh said:

997 4.0 RS = 600 units built.

996 RS = 682 units built

Then comes the 997.1 RS @ 1106 units, then the MK1 GT3 @ 1868 units. 

This really puts into perspective how under valued the 996.2 GT3 RS is! 

Ive no idea what the last 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0 changed hands for in Au? But it was advertised circa $750k~ iirc 

Just as rare, just as special and THE FIRST GT3 RS road car ever made...  

[TwoHeadsTas]

1 hour ago, PIC said:

I've been lucky enough to have driven both the 6.1 & 6.2 GT cars almost back to back. I spent half a day in each before buying  and yes 6.2 is a better car. Apart from @spiller comments, for me the big difference is the gear shifter, a significant improvement on the 6.1 car. The other is the power output, I know the numbers state 20Hp but it does feel like much more. It's interesting to hear your comments @Skidmarks re the 6.2 not been far off the RS, I haven't driven one but I did suspect that.

For me I prefer all of the improvements the 6.2 has to offer especially the shifter and extra power, but most of all the speed yellow really does it for me.

All that said if the 6.1 car that I first drove was speed yellow it would be parked in my shed now.

My point......... both cars are exceptional, you can't go wrong with either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just glad that 6.1 wasn't speed yellow 🙂  

I must say that now having driven my 6.1 for a few months (well not much recently), and understanding how it handles and drives, I'm now quite keen to have another drive of an RS.  The first (and only) time I drove one was 18 months ago, and I was so in awe of the opportunity to actually drive one, I really pussy footed around with it.  I'm sure now that I'd be much more confident in driving one, so will have a chat to a couple of mates that have 6.2 RSs......

[hugh]

 

 

Needs sound on.............

[RwGreeny]

1 hour ago, TwoHeadsTas said:

Just glad that 6.1 wasn't speed yellow 🙂  

I must say that now having driven my 6.1 for a few months (well not much recently), and understanding how it handles and drives, I'm now quite keen to have another drive of an RS.  The first (and only) time I drove one was 18 months ago, and I was so in awe of the opportunity to actually drive one, I really pussy footed around with it.  I'm sure now that I'd be much more confident in driving one, so will have a chat to a couple of mates that have 6.2 RSs......

I found the biggest difference between the two was the spring rate. The 6.2 RS was a lot stiffer than my 6.1 CS. I only drove the RS for a short squirt and the road it was on was less than perfect which probably didn’t help the experience. But I suspect on a smooth track is where it would really start to make sense

[Jason A]

996 RS is quite a handful at speed on poor quality roads. Put it on smooth bitumen or a track and it’s an amazing drive.

i can tell you acceleration wise it’s quicker than the GT3 sibling. As an RS should it received trick heads etc, Porsche dyno’d all the engines and recorded over 400hp on all of them. 
On track at Rennsport I had no trouble dispatching a few 997 GT3’s on the main straight.

When new it was an additional $50K for the RS. When I bought mine in 2013 I paid the premium, which at the time was same $$ as a 997 GT3. 997 MK2 RS was about $50K additional over the 996 at the time and there were plenty available.

[WGA]

3 hours ago, edgy said:

This really puts into perspective how under valued the 996.2 GT3 RS is! 

Ive no idea what the last 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0 changed hands for in Au? But it was advertised circa $750k~ iirc 

Just as rare, just as special and THE FIRST GT3 RS road car ever made...  

As I have mentioned before, if the 6RS had a numbered plaque like the 7RS4.0 it would cost twice as much and IMHO the 6RS is an equally important car.

It was the first RS with the Mezger engine and it was the first RS Andreas Preuninger  ever produced at the Motorsport division.

[WGA]

Here is an extract from a recent Total911 magazine story.

“We built it without management knowing,” admits GT product line director, Andreas Preuninger. He took a standard GT3 and, taking inspiration from the blue-on-white Carrera 2.7 Carrera RS picture he loved as a kid, created the 996 GT3 RS. The management said yes, hoodwinked slightly as to the changes the engineer had made to the GT3 to create the new Rennsport.

The engines were a bit more special than anyone would admit openly at the time, the quoted output the same 381hp of the regular GT3 because of the cost and hassle of homologating the revised engine. In reality though the 3.6-litre boxers in the RS were a little bit more special, with reshaped intake and exhaust ports among some other detailed changes. Preuninger has also previously admitted to us that none left the GT department with less than 400hp too, by the way.

[Skidmarks]

1 hour ago, WGA said:

Here is an extract from a recent Total911 magazine story.

“We built it without management knowing,” admits GT product line director, Andreas Preuninger. He took a standard GT3 and, taking inspiration from the blue-on-white Carrera 2.7 Carrera RS picture he loved as a kid, created the 996 GT3 RS. The management said yes, hoodwinked slightly as to the changes the engineer had made to the GT3 to create the new Rennsport.

The engines were a bit more special than anyone would admit openly at the time, the quoted output the same 381hp of the regular GT3 because of the cost and hassle of homologating the revised engine. In reality though the 3.6-litre boxers in the RS were a little bit more special, with reshaped intake and exhaust ports among some other detailed changes. Preuninger has also previously admitted to us that none left the GT department with less than 400hp too, by the way.

As I understand it, the GT3’s in general always did better than their quoted outputs.

[spiller]

This thread is not at all helping to quell my want for a 996 RS. 

[TwoHeadsTas]

1 minute ago, spiller said:

This thread is not at all helping to quell my want for a 996 RS. 

Well you are spoiled for choice at the moment.....