996/7 IMS Failure

[withers]

Autohaus have this 2002 996 with a 997 engine fitted by Porsche in 2010

This car would be free of all IMS woes right?

http://www.autohaushamilton.com.au/porsches_for_sale.html

This car is prob a real good buy? Thought I'd post it here in case someone was looking

[JustJames]

@Vinnie

 

Most (if not all) independent workshops in Australia can supply and fit the L&N Engineering IMS bearing update, which replaces the standard bearing with a ceramic bearing.  The ideal time to carry out the job is when the clutch is being replaced, as the bearing update job can then "piggy back" on the labour involved in separating engine and transmission to get at the clutch.

 

Although RMS (rear main seal) issues seem to have become conflated with IMS problems, RMS issues are almost always annoying rather than catastrophic.  Most cars with a problem RMS drip the occasional drop of oil.  I know - not ideal in a premium German sports car, but not in the same league as IMS failure.

 

@Amanda

 

You've linked to all of the cars for sale at Autohaus Hamilton.  But to answer skate delicately around your question...the very first 997's have the same IMS bearing as the 996.  Later 997.1 cars (and their Boxster/Cayman equivalents) had a beefier bearing of similar design to the 996 engine, which seems to have cured the problem.

 

And the direct injection engines used in 997.2 and 987.2 cars (2009 and on) don't have an IMS, and consequently don't have an IMS bearing.

[withers]

@Vinnie

Most (if not all) independent workshops in Australia can supply and fit the L&N Engineering IMS bearing update, which replaces the standard bearing with a ceramic bearing. The ideal time to carry out the job is when the clutch is being replaced, as the bearing update job can then "piggy back" on the labour involved in separating engine and transmission to get at the clutch.

Although RMS (rear main seal) issues seem to have become conflated with IMS problems, RMS issues are almost always annoying rather than catastrophic. Most cars with a problem RMS drip the occasional drop of oil. I know - not ideal in a premium German sports car, but not in the same league as IMS failure.

@Amanda

You've linked to all of the cars for sale at Autohaus Hamilton. But to answer skate delicately around your question...the very first 997's have the same IMS bearing as the 996. Later 997.1 cars (and their Boxster/Cayman equivalents) had a beefier bearing of similar design to the 996 engine, which seems to have cured the problem.

And the direct injection engines used in 997.2 and 987.2 cars (2009 and on) don't have an IMS, and consequently don't have an IMS bearing.

Yeh the link screwed up.

My question had absolutely nothing to do with Autohaus Hamilton - I was merely curious and asking a generalised question after seeing a few 996s FS with 'new' engines in them. If anything I see Autohaus selling one and immediately rate the car high!

[VinnieChase]

sounds like an worthy upgrade then, i've heard lots good thing about L&N and Hartech IMS solutions on the Total911 mag 

[oz951]

I did the LN engineering IMS bearing in my car a few weeks after I bought it and never looked back. I would highly recommend it for peace of mind. If a prospective 996 buyer factors in the cost of an IMS bearing upgrade when purchasing a 996, the end result is a lot of car for pretty reasonable money and no concerns about all the IMS hype.

[AndyS]

Same goes vinnie. Allow 2K for LN engineering ceramic IMS upgrade, new rear main seal at the same time. Advise by Justjames above is correct, most done when clutch is replace because all the work to get to clutch gives access to IMS bearing at the same time. I did mine without doing clutch, reason, my clutch had 5 years plas left in it due to amount of K's per annum driving and virtually no city driving so I didn't want to wait that long to replace IMS bearing. Cost me 2K with a minor service. Great mechanic, but in Melbourne so no good for you.

Regards,

Andy S

[StevepGT3]

Check this out Ladies And Gentlemen

 

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/996-forum/745057-ims-class-action-suit-2001-2005-owners-win-update-mar-12-a.html

[Niko]

Wow............ the list of Vehicle numbers is interesting, so...they know which ones are going to possibly go bang???? I just checked my Vehicle No and it is not amongst those nor the date of manufacture. Although that may only apply to U.S. Models, be nice to know if they have a list for Other country models)

Meaning I am assuming that mine probably wouldn't have gone "BANG" going by this supplied list.

Shite that is going to open up a can of worms in the U.S. be interesting to see if other countries follow suit. Also notice they are not compensating anyone who has had remedial work done "just in case"

Very very interesting....

[withers]

It only applies to the USA from what I could gather.  I wonder if they simply know all the numbers of the cars in that age bracket listed.

 

Anyhoo only 25% of the repair bill. Isn't much if you've  had to shell out for a new engine.  And really.  Porsche haven't admitted anything and nor are they really liable -  I got that from reading the thread. Not sure if I have come to the right or wrong conclusion there.

 

For those that own these cars - just enjoy them, do the LN bearing and forget it.  

 

EDIT:  I must say, I do like the idea of a 996 Cab. Was sitting in a black one on Saturday when I looked at the 964. Lovely car.. roomy, love how the roof folds away invisible, almost usable back seats, and the bum on these cars looks fantastic!  

[_Tony]

how reliable is the LN upgrade? Could you buy an affected 996, do the upgrade and not worry about it again?

[Niko]

aimr75, on 18 Mar 2013 - 15:27, said:

how reliable is the LN upgrade? Could you buy an affected 996, do the upgrade and not worry about it again?

Yes Tony, once it is done you shouldn't have any more possible problems with it. I have had my 986 Boxster done. That's not a 100% guarantee but I think it is a 99.9%. good value to get done.

As you have probably read previously , you may not know if it is going to be effected by the breakdown or not, so really it's an insurance policy for peace of mind (and a possible expensive engine rebuild if it does go BANG)

[JustJames]

What Niko said.

[_Tony]

Thanks. Have read a bit about the upgrades. But good to hear from people who have had it done. Price wise, 996's seem a lot more reasonable compared to 993's. Keep thinking i would still prefer a manual and at 70k+ it would mean waiting a few years as far as a 993 goes.

[AndyS]

I've done mine. Just add 2K to purchase price. Niko did his at Jocaro in Breaside and I did mine at Autoart Preston. Price within a couple of hundred of each other. My car is manual so my mechanic said it is a slightly quicker job than a tip so this was probably to main difference.

Regards

[Coastr]

I took this from the linked rent list thread

The following paragraph was pulled from the documents posted in the link above which explains the core issue of the lawsuit. Basically, the single row design experienced failures of 4 to 10%, where the dual row design has "far less than 1%"

"Discovery and investigation establishes that Porsche adopted a single row design for the IMS in 2001. The payment of warranty and goodwill claims of owners of Porsche vehicles with this design of the IMS (all Class Vehicles) spiked up to between 4% to 8% of all such Vehicles in the United States, and 4% to 10% of all Class Vehicles in California. Warranty claims for Porsche Boxster and 911 vehicles relating to IMS issues, which had different versions of the IMS, have uniformly involved claims of far less than 1 % of such vehicles. Indeed, to date, Porsche has spent over $20,000,000 reimbursing customers for the parts and labor necessary to repair vehicles experiencing engine damage or failure as a result of the defective IMS shaft. (This entails approximately 3,100 claims granted under warranty or good will.)"

The suit requires that if you suffered a IMSB failure prior to the date of settlement agreement you will have 90 days to file your claim once the settlement agreement is finalized.

It's the first time I have seen actual failure rates up to 8% for single row IMS bearings, and around 1% for double row bearings.

If buying a 996 it would seem that you need to research which design your engine was fitted with in order to assess your risk factor. But think of it like this : out of 12 996s parked in a row, 1 of them is doomed to die, or has done already.

[JustJames]

If buying a 996 it would seem that you need to research which design your engine was fitted with in order to assess your risk factor. But think of it like this : out of 12 996s parked in a row, 1 of them is doomed to die, or has done already.

Interesting poast, Coastr.

The double row bearing was used for 1997-99 engines and some 2000-'01 engines

The single row bearing was used for 2002-'05 engines and some 2000-'01 engines.

In other words, the single row replaced the double row bearing during 2000-'01. For cars built during 2000-'01, the only way to ascertain which bearing design was used is to have a look-see.

[_Tony]

Interesting poast, Coastr.

The double row bearing was used for 1997-99 engines and some 2000-'01 engines

The single row bearing was used for 2002-'05 engines and some 2000-'01 engines.

In other words, the single row replaced the double row bearing during 2000-'01. For cars built during 2000-'01, the only way to ascertain which bearing design was used is to have a look-see.

 

If you bought a 99' 996 with a double row bearing for example, is it still advisable to get the LN upgrade anyway?

[JustJames]

If it were my car, I would do it without a second thought.

FWIW, single row bearings outsell double row by a factor of 2:1, although that prolly just means more cars were built in the last half of M96 engine history.

Stats nerd warning:

It comes down to attitudes to risk. Statistically, you are achsly better off running the risk with a double row bearing if those percentages are accurate. A 1% failure rate means that a rational person should avoid the risk if the cost of aversion equals 1/100 of the cost of picking up the pieces.

In truth, installing then LN Engineering bearing costs more than 1/100 of the cost of an engine rebuild.

Like I said, if it were my car, I'd pay to have the IMS bearing upgrade done, and rest a lot easier.

[oz951]

I'm not a gambler. When I owned my first 996 (a 2002 model) I drove it for a year and the IMS thing always was in the back of my mind and it detracted from the ownership experience. When I sold it and bought the 99 model I replaced the IMS straight away and have never given IMS a worried thought ever since.  Whether you replace the IMS or not comes down to your risk tolerance and perhaps your intentions with respect to how long you'd hang onto the car. For me the 'satisfaction factor' has far far outweighed the $$ outlay to replace the IMS. That is one reason that I have no regrets even after I examined my bearing and found that it was in perfectly good condition and was going to remain so as it's grease filling had been replaced by engine oil by the time I got to it.

[withers]

Thanks. Have read a bit about the upgrades. But good to hear from people who have had it done. Price wise, 996's seem a lot more reasonable compared to 993's. Keep thinking i would still prefer a manual and at 70k+ it would mean waiting a few years as far as a 993 goes.

 

Go drive them   You should also drive a 986 Boxster S as well - quick car compared to the tip 993 you spoke of.  In some ways the 986 would be a great complement to your GTI.

 

Just keep test driving till you find the one that sings to you

[withers]

And here's the equivalent post in the 996 forum for anyone interested in the comments from 996 owners

 

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/996-forum/745057-ims-class-action-suit-2001-2005-owners-win-update-mar-12-a.html

[Niko]

Here is how to fix it....Sit back open a cool refresher and have a read....

 

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/Porsche-996-997-Carrera/14-ENGINE-IMS_Bearing/14-ENGINE-IMS_Bearing.htm?utm_source=Partial+2012+Porsche+Cust&utm_campaign=0f44b10ab5-5_15_Partial_2012_Porsche_Cust5_14_2013&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c698603abc-0f44b10ab5-66407861

[Whipit]

Can easily be $15k if it goes, $2k to ensure it never will, bit of a no brainer really....

[Broadsword]

My 98 Carrera 2 suffered the IMS failure a few years back under a different owner, and the car came with a fairly hefty Porsche Centre Melbourne receipt for the replacement engine.

 

A recent service at an Independent said that was no guarantee that this engine would not suffer the same from the same problem.

 

Now I am baffled; would PCM replace an engine yet not fix the fault with the new one, or was the independent trying to make more work for himself (which I find hard to believe given the other things he said I did not have to do just yet)?

 

Is there an easy way of telling whether the upgrade has been done without taking the car to someone for yet another opinion?

[withers]

Erm fom all my research Broadsword, Porsche probably fitted which ever engine was current at the time. This means if this occurred in say 2003 for example, you could have the single row bearing in it.

Have you contacted Porsche Aus and asked them or know what year the engine was replaced?

Even with all the bloody research I did, I still managed to buy the car with the flimsiest bearing ie the single row IMS Bearing!!

The double row bearings have a 1% failure rate - with some luck that's what you have. When you are due for a clutch, put the LN Bearing in and it'll be fine.