996/7 IMS Failure

[Whipit]

Apologies re the 997 mistake, I agree what the world does not need more of are internet "truths". I have edited my comment and removed the 997 reference.

I do take a little exception to the quote above "No its not good enough, but when I spend $100K I'm going to do my research first" I assume the inference is I should have done my research. But that is exactly the problem, because Porsche have chosen to remain silent about the issues, its actually hard (almost impossible) to find any real actual data on the true extent of the problem.

In fact if you read through this entire thread from the beginning you will see I was sceptical that there really was a problem at all, I thought it may have been an internet based beat up. I thought to myself surely Porsche would not release an engine like that and not publish anything about it.

These problems are real, any person driving a NA 996 right now is quite literally driving a ticking time bomb - Fact - Period.

I am posting this in the hope that it helps someone else "Doing their research" because there is precious little information out there to go by. The IMS is not by a long stretch the only issue with these engines. With my car the IMS bearing was perfect. It was a totally unrelated problem.

[JustJames]

Just for clarity, my reference to "internet facts" was not intended as a dig at you, Whipit.

And as Hugh said above - very sad to hear.

James

[Chris-p]

Gary, I really do feel for you. It sounds like you have been terribly unlucky with what has happened to your car. I do feel the need to defend the Porsche marque though. Everyone on this forum is deeply enamored to the brand. Yes the 996 did have some issues but then it's pretty unusual for there not to be some problem with anything that is mechanical.

I believe that the first of the Ferrari 458's had a penchant for self combustion. On a car that was close to 450k that would be rather devastating... Even the venerable 993 had issues with transmission shafts on the early versions of the turbo. I also personally know of an Audi limited edition RS5 that detonated the engine after less than 5000km. A car that 200k. So faults are not limited to Porsches. These are just some examples to put some perspective on the issue.

I do understand your need to vent your frustration but don't give up on the brand. I read some of your comments before this issue came to light and you were absolutely in love with your car. So don't forget that feeling and while yes you have a engine rebuild to pay for you will have an absolutely awesome car come out the other end. Enjoy it when you get it back and put this down to one of those life experiences.

Oh and just so you know I had an absolutely mint 930 that had an oil leak that ended up costing me 8k for a rebuild to fix the leak 6 years ago so I do understand what you are going through.....

Cheers and best wishes

Chris

[Choppergrino]

Sorry to hear it whipit! Ouch!!! I too have a 996 carrera and love it dearly, I replace the oil every 10k and do all the recommended services. It is a shame that these cars are tar'd with the ims brush as they are a great car.

I recently spoke to my Porsche mech about an IMS bearing upgrade for my car and he said it is a small issue for the amount of cars built vs the cars effected .

I guess it's a matter of paying $1500 for an upgrade or chancing it and pay $10000 for a rebuild should something happen.

I am annoyed at the bad publicity this IMS issue has for the Marque being a fan of every Porsche ever made.

When you own a 996 you don't want to hear slagging about 996 IMS issues and water cooled jokes, at the end of the day we are all enthusiasts and enjoy our cars every time we drive them!

Danny996

[Red3.2]

$1500, cheap insurance Niko's done it for peace of mind.

[Choppergrino]

Yeah true red3.2 it is a small price to pay for Piece of mind!

[Jimmy]

Yeah true red3.2 it is a small price to pay for Piece of mind!

I actually sold my last P car the 996 Millenium edition 6 years ago because of the same issue,

there wasn't a fix back then as it wasn't that well known but if I had the option to fix it,

it would have been done without thinking twice and kept it as it was a beautifal car to drive and own.

Just the thought that it could self destruct at any time didn't sit right with me.

[Niko]

$1500, cheap insurance Niko's done it for peace of mind.

Yep cut off the possible problem at the pass. Followed advice, from wiser heads than mine, "better safe than sorry" is a good policy.

AndyS also did the same with his 996. May have never happened......but.....

I agree it is a stain on the great Porsche name, but the stain is there, so bite the bullet fix it and move on.

Ignore the problem at your own peril. Sorry if that sounds a bit harsh.

[T-Man]

When you own a 996 you don't want to hear slagging about 996 IMS issues and water cooled jokes, at the end of the day we are all enthusiasts and enjoy our cars every time we drive them!

Danny996

That's a bloody disgrace that people take the piss out of you like that.

Bloody disrespectful air-cooled drivers!!!!

[oz951]

I also subscribe to the view that all Porsches have their issues, it's the price we pay for enjoying a marque that pushes the performance limits whilst still trying to remain economically viable. Porsches are all about evolution and I'm not really surprised that the 996/boxster brought with it some fresh issues in the transition to a mass production based watercooled flat six (as opposed to evolutions of the more expensive mezger design). I too went with the pre-emptive IMS replacement (unnecessarily as it turned out - my IMS was perfect) and temperature reduction measures to address issues that I was aware of. It's a real shame when owners get caught out by issues like failed timing chains and oil pump drives because those events are costly to resolve and it doesn't make the owner feel any better knowing that they are one of an unlucky minority.

I also subscribe to the view that these are awesome cars in so many ways, They are so rewarding to drive and I know that I get a lot of joy from simply seeing the cars sitting in the driveway (assuming they are running , perhaps a bit less joy whilst I am awaiting some expensive part to be delivered ). |Then again it's all relative. I remember being at the track one day and talking to a guy who raced a few Ferraris and he was lamenting the fact that his Ferraris were great to drive but they were considerably more expensive to maintain than his GT3s,

[ArthurK]

These problems are real, any person driving a NA 996 right now is quite literally driving a ticking time bomb - Fact - Period.

Well to some degree this is correct with the 996/986 engines but not quite right with the GT3 engine - still a NA engine.

Feel for you and the main reason I got rid of mine 6 years ago plus the introduction of a new family member....

[Whipit]

$1500, cheap insurance Niko's done it for peace of mind.

Look I know I am coming across as a bit of a pain in the "you know what"..... but, I am only keeping going with this thread because I think the truth should be out there so people can make informed decisions.

My car WAS NOT an IMS failure.

In fact my IMS bearing was perfect. Anyone out there who thinks that changing the IMS bearing will "solve" the 996 NA (excluding GT3) issue(s) are mistaken. My car simply could not have been better or more thoroughly maintained. I spared no expense on it and was meticulous in servicing.

The oil pump spontaneously seized, which then broke the timing chain, which then bends valves, damages the sprocket on the ims shaft, which requires total disassembly to fix. All up $12k and running...... On a car with 60,000 km....

My issue is that THESE ARE KNOWN PROBLEMS TO PORSCHE and they choose to ignore them.

[Chris-p]

Gary, I really do feel for you. It sounds like you have been terribly unlucky with what has happened to your car. I do feel the need to defend the Porsche marque though. Everyone on this forum is deeply enamored to the brand. Yes the 996 did have some issues but then it's pretty unusual for there not to be some problem with anything that is mechanical.

I believe that the first of the Ferrari 458's had a penchant for self combustion. On a car that was close to 450k that would be rather devastating... Even the venerable 993 had issues with transmission shafts on the early versions of the turbo. I also personally know of an Audi limited edition RS5 that detonated the engine after less than 5000km. A car that 200k. So faults are not limited to Porsches. These are just some examples to put some perspective on the issue.

I do understand your need to vent your frustration but don't give up on the brand. I read some of your comments before this issue came to light and you were absolutely in love with your car. So don't forget that feeling and while yes you have a engine rebuild to pay for you will have an absolutely awesome car come out the other end. Enjoy it when you get it back and put this down to one of those life experiences.

Oh and just so you know I had an absolutely mint 930 that had an oil leak that ended up costing me 8k for a rebuild to fix the leak 6 years ago so I do understand what you are going through.....

Cheers and best wishes

Chris

Again....

[oz951]

I feel your pain Whipit. Making the 996 community aware of issues that have occurred is a good thing, - not wanting to diminish your personal situation I'd go on to say that it is then it is up to the readers to make a judgement on just how prevalent the issue is. Whilst I don't recall hearing about a lot of oil pump drives being the root cause of an engine failure I do recall that one of the US aftermarket parts companies has had an upgraded oil pump drive available for several years now. In the forum browsing that I have done over the years Whipit's is the first one that I've noticed who has reported the oil pump drive as being the root cause of his engine failure. Given that 175000+ 996s were manufactured and there doesn't seem to have been that many cases of owners reporting this failure I don't think I'd drop my engine to replace just the oil pump drives but I will probably replace the oil pump drives when I replace my timing chains. Well that is my approach to managing the risk given the potential outcome weighed up against the liklihood of the issue occuring

[AndyS]

Hi All,

Really sorry to see this happen to you Gary. From reading the above posts this sounds like a really rare problem which I am sure will only be adding to your frustration. The IMS issue (although unrelated to yours) is the one that generally stained the 996 / 986 reputation. Thankfully the LN engineering is a relatively low cost preventative fix. Niko and I both did our cars at roughly the same time. This aside problems seem to be relatively rare. I have seen some mention of heat related bore scoring which I spoke to my mechanic about and he has seen a few.

I'm going to put it out there - I love my 996! I have had it 6 years and very much enjoy driving it.

Unfortunately things can go wrong. Chris had a rebuild on his 930, I had a mate blow a DSG tranny on a golf (car was 2 years old) and my mate who works in the industry has seen M5 V10's destroy themselves as well. All not good but unfortunately something we all, as P car owners, need to understand can happen.

Hope you do a great rebuild Gary and keep the car. I remember how you spoke of your enjoyment driving it and I look forward to see you enjoy it again.

Regards

Andy S

[wasserkuhl]

Gary Just read this thread.

That is pretty ordinary and I'd say probably and extra-ordinary failure. However at the very least you have your car back and running, which is good.

It is a symptom of "The Change' Porsche went through and adopted a completely new way of manufacturing, which they have now evolved to the point where there is no need to run two different engine designs.

I colleague is considering buying a $42k 996 Carrera Manual with 107k km's on the clock. He kept asking me why its so 'cheap' when compared to older models.

My advice to him was that if he wants the car to have the IMS upgrade done straight away and make sure that it doesn't have 0W or 5W oil in it. Install the larger sump and the magnetic plug.

Its just a shame that such an iconic Brands name with its core values in engineering and longevity was watered down by this M96/M97 issue.

However, if we look back this is not and isolated case.

• The 964 Mezger engine has some oridnary faults and leaks early on in its production.
  
• The 993 Mezger engine has some horrid premature valve guide wear and failures producing a Check engine light that wouldn't go away with out a top end rebuild
  
• The Transaxle 924/944/968/928 has some fundemental flaws, however these could be remedied with over zealous replacement and servicing (ie: Cash)
  
• Magnesium case Mezger engines pulled studs and the case halves shuffled/moved under load
  
• Most mezger six engines head studs break eventually..................
  
• Some Mezger Six engines # 8 Nose bearing seal can fail/leak producing an annoying pool of 'blood' on your Garage floor. FULL rebuild (top and bottom) to fix this.
  
• The 915 gearbox synchro's. I like the 915 however its not the most popular or efficient design to come from Zuffenhausen
  
• Mezger engined GT3's, Turbo's and GT2's can leak from their RMS if not driven alot or hard.............
  

I could go on......

However when we look at the relative costs of say Secondhand Ferrari, Lamborghini or Maserati ownership then we can see that relatively speaking, Porsche's are quite reliable and even 'cheap' to maintain and repair.

I hope you can still enjoy your 996 and not have to endure it. Porsches are all special cars, its just that some of them break down.

I haven't got the Stones to buy a 996.

[oz951]

I was on track with a bloke who's 997 GT3 blew it's engine in spectacular fashion about 18 months ago. Porsche didn't cover him for it. So yes even the famed Mezger engine can fail (like all things mechanical). Thankfully he got a new engine and kept on enjoying his car.

[wasserkuhl]

Big thrills always = Big Bills.

[JustJames]

My advice to him was ...make sure that it doesn't have 0W or 5W oil in it.

Why the advice against 0W or 5W oil, wasserkuhl?

[Babalouie]

I read something about that, too. A few UK mags have had articles about 996/IMS issues and one of the common recommendations for making your IMS last as long as it can, was to do frequent oil changes (more frequent than the factory recommendation) and to use something a notch or two thicker than the factory-recommended 0W-40 or 5W-40 oil.

[wasserkuhl]

Why the advice against 0W or 5W oil, wasserkuhl?

I knew the Oil reference would derive a question.

Perhaps I should clarify this as 5w 40 or higher is OK for our climate, perhaps further attention to choice should be given if you are driving your car harder than the average person would.

Viscosity is of course important, matched to climate. More frequent dain intervals will also pay you dividends. Using too thick oil will cause just as much damage as too thin oil.

OW oils in our climate will not help premature engine failures. However I must say that this is just my opinion derived from my own research and experience in consultation with people like Charles Navarro(LN Engineering) and Oil analysis Lab here locally.

I don't want to start an oil thread as Oil is like religion; Best not discussed (you choose and take advice from who you trust based on facts and statistical analysis.)

The above is just my personal opinion and I don't wish to start any controversey!!!

James I hope that explains my commentary!!

.

[hugh]

On the topic of other makes, spoke to a mate this afternoon who has an Audi A4 diesel auto (3.5 years old), just out of warranty. The transmission gave way today - 22k to repair! He has left it with Audi Brighton to see what they can do, most likely will be written off.

22+ grand on a car that's just ticked over 45k klm, 60-70k purchase price. Unreal.

[T-Man]

There is a great article which is certainly worth the read in "911 & Porsche World" (Oct) on the M96/M97 engines and the problems and solutions.

Very interesting reading indeed......a good 10 pages of it!!!!!!!

[Doish13]

22k for the box? wow!

Funny that I was only thinking with these new dual clutch jobs now getting around what a repair would cost in the future? Existing single clutch replacements can be costly however I envision these to be sky high.

Remember changing my first clutch back in 91 on a Gemini $100 all up cost and four hours or so work doing it myself with dodgy tools - like changing a lightbulb in comparison to today.

[Babalouie]

Google "DSG Failure" and prepare to be shocked