Ethics 101

[reggiegums]

Had a question.

If someone advertised a car for less than what it was worth. say 20% less than it was worth (eg. didn't know a price premium existed between a S and non-S or manual vs auto) and a casual observer who has a similar car but not in the market per se, sees the advertisement.

Is it ethical or unethical to tell the seller of his mistake/ignorance? Remember, that he has no interest in purchasing the car whatsoever.

Does your response change if the value difference was 100% or 300%.? eg if the car was worth $300,000 and only advertised for $100,000.

Also, do you agree with Carsales' "suggested listing price"?

[Plugger2]

If you were feeling generous, I would say inform the seller of his/her misunderstanding.

Not sure it is an ethical obligation, though, since the rules of business transactions put the onus on the seller and buyer to do their own due diligence.

 

[cyberpunky]

Personally all onus is on seller. You don't know their motives. They may have it reduced because they really really need a quick sale. If it was 20% above what they are worth, would you tell them ? Maybe it is over priced to keep partner happy that they are trying to get rid of the car even though they don't really want to. What if you tell  them the price is too low, they put up the price and the car sits and they don't sell it? Are going to help them financially till it sells ? Really it is no ones business but the seller IMO

[Redracn]

I don't think this as described is an ethics issue but rather a conscious issue more a could you live with yourself situation. Certainly not in the same ballpark as some I been unfortunate to know who have ZEARO ethics. 

[KGB]

Adopt an African child.

[LeeM]

  If it was an elderly seller who had no idea of values, I'd let them know its a tad underpriced. If it was a classic Porsche, hmmmm, dunno about that one

 On the other hand, it's really their problem they haven't looked at the market values.

 Would anyone here honestly knock back a running, driving Pre A 356 or 60's 911 for $20k, even if they didn't want one? Didn't think so

[turboT]

A few of us helped an unaware seller of a mint 930 last year. Was a PFA user for all of  1 week, and cleared $250k, or about $130k more than he was originally asking...

[James P]

A few of us helped an unaware seller of a mint 930 last year. Was a PFA user for all of  1 week, and cleared $250k, or about $130k more than he was originally asking...

He got bombarded with offers & being a smart business man he knew something was up with the values... but yes a few of us helped when we couldn't buy it i suspect  

[michel]

A few of us helped an unaware seller of a mint 930 last year. Was a PFA user for all of  1 week, and cleared $250k, or about $130k more than he was originally asking...

anyone else own a turbo..l? 

 

 

 

[ELSPORTO]

humpty dumpy sat on the wall

humpty dumpty had a great fall

all the kings horses and all the kings men said

"fuck him, he's only an egg"

.....

[smit2100]

Had a question.

If someone advertised a car for less than what it was worth. say 20% less than it was worth (eg. didn't know a price premium existed between a S and non-S or manual vs auto) and a casual observer who has a similar car but not in the market per se, sees the advertisement.

Is it ethical or unethical to tell the seller of his mistake/ignorance? Remember, that he has no interest in purchasing the car whatsoever.

Does your response change if the value difference was 100% or 300%.? eg if the car was worth $300,000 and only advertised for $100,000.

Also, do you agree with Carsales' "suggested listing price"?

Each to their own and one person's treasure is another person's trash and hence we all have differing opinions on value and whats it worth.  No laws broken selling cheap and no laws broken if buying cheap in absence of any undue influence / fraud (seller doesn't own the car) being exhibited.

However, if you aren't going to buy it yourself (20% discount) and exploit the situation,  then as a paid up PFA forum member, I would be disappointed if you did not share that with your fellow PFA brethren on this forum so one of us forum readers (preferably a paid up member) can exploit that situation.  Personally as a forum member, unless the seller is a forum member I think is unethical to sow that seed in the sellers mind that they may be selling too cheap. (is that not covered in the forum guidelines/ unspoken word if you read / partake in "The whats interesting / whats for sale thread".

Also, so you don't feel guilty about staying silent, how would you feel if the engine was  F&*)(%, and as a result of the owner not being 100% transparent (unethical to some) and disclosing that, a fellow PFA member not only paid 20% more than they should of had you not intervened but have to spend another 20% on it to make good on the engine because it was not picked up not withstanding a PPI was done.

In terms of a 20% difference in value or a significant difference in value, be guided by the essence of the late Kerry Packer's approach to paying tax.  It is your  PFA duty and right to exploit such a situation to improve your own cashflow situation and net worth for your own  benefit.  If not in a position to do so, at least convince your close mates to get in on it with you, otherwise stay silent, and followup with  a PFA forum  post so  fellow PFA brethren can derive a benefit and do a quick flip if they are not going to keep it.  If the seller reads the post, that may motivate them to jack up the price, otherwise your in for a a carton of piss / dinner /  some handing over keys to a P car may be in order for your silence / post  if logistics allow and may get away with a few squirts of a  P car like you stole it if that is your thing.  Eg I am sure the post won't be forgotten  if one was to benefit from it and what goes around comes around. Plus it is a direct incentive for outlaying PFA annual membership fees (cheap and informal insider information tips) 

Furthermore, isn't buying at a 20% discount to retail, just basically akin to buying at wholesale car yard trade in offerings.  For my first years annual subscription of PFA, I learnt a  golden first principle (101) from our resident chief tyre kicker " Symsy" is always offer and buy at wholesale pricing.  Shortly followed by lesson (102) that is a MUST, if the car is boosted, to spend some of the discount to retail that you saved on your purchase to fund an ECU tune and free flowing exhaust to drive you dollar and P car driving experience further.(Symsy must of done some consulting work for Bob Ansett , didn't Budget hire out boosted P cars back in the day of the 80's  business perks largess pre introduction of FBT) .  

Given your apparent undeciveness / conscience, perhaps that situation you note should be memorialised in the PFA forum guidelines to assist with ensuring you are ethically working within the confines of what some of your fellow paid up PFA brethren expect is acceptable behavior / is the right course of action to take.

In relation to car sales suggested pricing, whats your motivation.  You buying, selling or motivated to save some tax. My experience when it comes to whats it worth when dealing with the ATO is they gave sweet FA standing to car sales pricing guidelines but do take note of the Glass guide and Redbook pricing guidelines.  When dealing with those numbers, carsales numbers look like they have a vested interest in over reporting prices.   Taking a leaf from Mr Packer, car sales pricing is not the source doc I would be referring to as my source doc when it comes to putting a value on whats it worth when it comes to my FBT bill on my P car.  20% of the difference  ( car sales vs Redbook / glass guide) is a lot of FBT to piss away on an annual basis of my hard earned dollars pre or post tax and prefer to pick up cars at redbook / glass pricing (trade in column numbers) as opposed to car sales.  If I am selling, no prize for which source doc I would prefer to  be referencing.

 

 

 

[reggiegums]

I have formed my opinion now. For disclosure purposes, I'm mainly a buyer and not a seller. I just think that if a seller, informed or otherwise, lists something for sale and you don't have the means or intention to purchase, then stand back and shut TF up. Don't just place a call and offer your opinion that you think its under priced. Some people also do this when they miss out on a purchase.

An outlier that sells below the norm isn't going to ruin the value of your car. Relax and FO.

[ELSPORTO]

I have formed my opinion now. For disclosure purposes, I'm mainly a buyer and not a seller. I just think that if a seller, informed or otherwise, lists something for sale and you don't have the means or intention to purchase, then stand back and shut TF up. Don't just place a call and offer your opinion that you think its under priced. Some people also do this when they miss out on a purchase.

An outlier that sells below the norm isn't going to ruin the value of your car. Relax and FO.

Glad we could help 

[turboT]

anyone else own a turbo..l? 

 

 

 

you can if you want Michael....

[tazzieman]

Smitty has said it all. Whatever it was.

[SammyD]

 

 

     18 hours ago, turboT said:
A few of us helped an unaware seller of a mint 930 last year. Was a PFA user for all of  1 week, and cleared $250k, or about $130k more than he was originally asking...

 

Nice work .... Was that highest paid for a 930? (that we know of)

 

 

 

[symsy]

Offer half, tell em the bubble is a fabricated reality, or the bubble has burst   Just make sure you pay them , once you have flipped it send them a few lottery tickets and a bottle of Verve.

Accountability is a personal responsibility

Charity is also a very nice gesture.

Seriously though , personally if I make a good deal , I look after those that I feel need something after I have banked my gain. Or look after those that have contributed..

 

[Airhead]

I have an Aus delivered 996 Turbo for sale and I heae that 996 values are low. But I really need 40k for it. Divorce coming up. Has 25300 ks on it. I just don't use it much as I'm on an oil rig and internet is patchy. Let me know if anyone interested and I'll get my friend in Darwin to get in touch to organise delivery for you.

[LeeM]

I have an Aus delivered 996 Turbo for sale and I heae that 996 values are low. But I really need 40k for it. Divorce coming up. Has 25300 ks on it. I just don't use it much as I'm on an oil rig and internet is patchy. Let me know if anyone interested and I'll get my friend in Darwin to get in touch to organise delivery for you.

 Underpriced mate, so I'll give ya $50k. Direct transfer ok? Can do Paypal, though that can be dodgy at times. Can't trust anyone these day mate! 

[Pokiou]

i wouldnt say anything... you dont know the story of the car? maybe its cheap for a reason. Maybe he financially needs to do a quick sale. Tell them is like walking a mine field... i wouldnt do it.

[Fraz]

@reggiegums I must say, I find this whole thread extremely strange coming from you. 

I seem to remember you asking me via personal message and I quote, "what's your MAX budget" when I was looking to buy a 964. 

Then in a momentary laps of sanity when selling you asked me " what's your best price"

What gives ?

Have you had a gilt of conscience or has Karma come too roost.  

 

[reggiegums]

@reggiegums I must say, I find this whole thread extremely strange coming from you. 

I seem to remember you asking me via personal message and I quote, "what's your MAX budget" when I was looking to buy a 964. 

Then in a momentary laps of sanity when selling you asked me " what's your best price"

What gives ?

Have you had a gilt of conscience or has Karma come too roost.  

 

Both questions were legitimate and needed to be asked.

When you were seeking to buy, I had to ask "what was your max budget"?

When you were selling, I had to ask "whats your best price"?

My responses to your responses on both occasions may have been a little curt and which I apologize for. 

The original question is very different, in that one who has no intention or means of purchasing, gives his upward view of what he sees it as being worth. ie more than the seller was asking.

[Fraz]

Both questions were legitimate and needed to be asked.

When you were seeking to buy, I had to ask "what was your max budget"?

When you were selling, I had to ask "whats your best price"?

My responses to your responses on both occasions may have been a little curt and which I apologize for. 

The original question is very different, in that one who has no intention or means of purchasing, gives his upward view of what he sees it as being worth. ie more than the seller was asking.

Hang on a second, how is asking "what's your max budget" without providing any details about the car a legitimate question. I mean absolutely nothing apart from being a 964. Clearly you were fishing to see how much money I had to spend so you can price the car at the top of my declared budget. 

As a genuine buyer/seller at the time, your legitimate questions did not reflect well on your "ethics".

So let me get this straight, your a ethical buyer/seller and even more so when you have zero intention or mean$.

[reggiegums]

Hang on a second, how is asking "what's your max budget" without providing any details about the car a legitimate question. I mean absolutely nothing apart from being a 964. Clearly you were fishing to see how much money I had to spend so you can price the car at the top of my declared budget. 

As a genuine buyer/seller at the time, your legitimate questions did not reflect well on your "ethics".

So let me get this straight, your a ethical buyer/seller and even more so when you have zero intention or mean$.

Whatever.