PPIs - from the Seller's Viewpoint

[Rob]

Just had a PPI done on a car I'm selling (not a Porsche) and would be interested to hear any other sellers' experiences with PPI provider's focus on negatives in the written report, rather than a balanced view of the vehicle. When I picked mine up from the workshop, had a brief chat with the examiner and his view was that it was a "well-maintained vehicle, in good condition, with wear and tear commensurate with age and kilometres". The written report, supplied to me by the buyer, did not mention this, although the same message was provided verbally to the buyer. The written report showed only negative items, such as "Battery test showed low, may require a new battery soon"; "Has coolant stains on top hose coupler and bypass hose. Hose may just require a clamp"; "Under bonnet left hand foam trim is missing and drive belt is ageing". (the foam piece was still under bonnet, but not in its proper place.) Pretty nit-picky.

All true comments, but a bit scary to a newbie buyer. Could have also said something about paint and bodywork in excellent condition, as is interior & upholstery, complete absence of oil leaks, un-marked lips of mag wheels, etc. Wondering if this is common policy with PPIs, has I have a mate whose Cayman sale was trashed by a similar style of report.

[DJM]

All comes down to your buyer.  Any reasonable person will take the verbal feedback in addition to the finicky written report.

I had PR Tech PPI a 996 GT2 a few years ago and it came across as if it has a range of faults  but when I spoke to them it was clear they had to look really hard to find stuff but felt that was their job.  I appreciated it and went ahead with the purchase on their summary that it was extremely well looked after.  When I collected the car (bought sight unseen interstate) I struggled to find some of the “defects” they’d listed . It was mint from my perspective.  But you’d rather be told everything and form an overall opinion than have them decide what’s important or not to you as a buyer.    It could cause the buyer to baulk or try and negotiate but not much can be done about that.  Just hope for a genuine buyer that gets it. 

[TINGY]

I had a PPI done on a very good car i owned and it seems the whole thing was centered around getting some work for the workshop. 

I was bitterly disappointed with the outcome of the report. Some of the items listed were so minor but unfortunately that was what the buyer focused on, all the negatives.

There were positives in the report but it's funny how the PPI writers seem to be doing an arse covering exercise so if something does go wrong it doesn't come back to bite them.

There could be something that goes wrong after a sale that may not show up in a PPI, that's cars and shit happens, personally not a fan. Good luck @Rob

 

[bear924]

When I had the PPI done on the GT3 it came back with a really long list and I freaked.  Then I read it and realised that most of the items were really small, which I subsequently repaired.  I understand why everything is listed, however in my mind the key things I'd want to know is (has it been crashed, is there a major mechanical problem or rust).  Hopefully your buyer will reflect on the report and appreciate that it's a good car and move forward.

[GC9911]

1 hour ago, TINGY996 said:

I had a PPI done on a very good car i owned and it seems the whole thing was centered around getting some work for the workshop. 

I was bitterly disappointed with the outcome of the report. Some of the items listed were so minor but unfortunately that was what the buyer focused on, all the negatives.

There were positives in the report but it's funny how the PPI writers seem to be doing an arse covering exercise so if something does go wrong it doesn't come back to bite them.

There could be something that goes wrong after a sale that may not show up in a PPI, that's cars and shit happens, personally not a fan. Good luck @Rob

 

Yes, definitely an arse covering exercise. Part of our politically correct/someone else must be responsible mantra that pervades our society these days. 

[spiller]

I bought a Cayenne from a private seller in QLD a number of years ago and had the car PPI’d by PCB who listed a number of “faults” with the car along with prices to fix them. Leaky valve cover gaskets and front and rear brake pads nearing replacement, to name a few . As a result, I negotiated about 7 or 8 grand off the price expecting I’d have to fix these things once I got the car. When I finally got the car, there were no such valve cover leaks and I got another 10,000 kms from the front pads. I sold the car after 15,000kms and the rear brake pads still didn’t need replacing. The car got a completely clean bill of health when the next owner had a PPI done by an independent.

Not ragging on PCB, they were looking after me as the customer and I felt they were just being extremely thorough. However, it’s important to know as a buyer and seller that assessments on a vehicle’s condition can vary quite far and wide from one workshop to the next. 

[symsy]

PPI a negotiation tool or risk determination tool ??  I think you should go in with contingency and view that you will be prepared to fix . I have said to my buyers you pay the dollar as asked, I will back my car and do repairs if it more than 5k we get the option  to reconsider. 
 

I think most main dealer PPI in my experience a complete ass covering exercise and a waste of time .

[smit2100]

13 hours ago, symsy said:

PPI a negotiation tool or risk determination tool ??  I think you should go in with contingency and view that you will be prepared to fix . I have said to my buyers you pay the dollar as asked, I will back my car and do repairs if it more than 5k we get the option  to reconsider. 
 

I think most main dealer PPI in my experience a complete ass covering exercise and a waste of time .

^ @ symsy, thats a great post in my mind.  For those of us that buy and hold, and in frequently tyre kick, a reminder of two sides of the ledger when it comes to tyre kicking.  Game theory, the art of a  deal principles , project management principles along with devling into the the mind of a  tyre kicker on the buy side  spring to mind.   A simplistic algorithmic formulae to get you closer to your asking irrespective of the noise / non show stoppers on the PPI ( low risk items for a buyer ).  Even contemplates for when the buyer has a genuine show stopper risk and keeps them on the hook for some extra argy bargy,  instead of them moving onto to the next one on their shopping list.

@Rob.  if you know report styles alone eat into your asking that focuses on the negatives only, whats the reason  from the outset that  you have   not spent your own   pennies to protect your  dollars (asking price).    If your car is good as you think it is or what's been verbally advised,  can't you counter that negative  narrative with an alternative piece of paper that you have arranged.   With reference to your post, I can't reconcile your off the books conversations on the car not reconciling with whats memoralised in the report,  particularly If you aren't paying the bill.   Just a view but verbal discussions in your favour  have more weight when its also  memoralised in writing and you get to keep the report.    Refer to the screenshot attached of a PPI I paid for   and scroll up to the top ( eg look at the test drive heading and general report heading comments).  Above those comments were an extra 23 headings  of facts ( no issues with compression and leak down numbers and brake component measurements ) and quality associated observations (  non show stoppers for me as a buyer  or what  you refer to as negatives  but true findings ).    Did I use them to negotiate the price down aggressively, absolutely.  Would I have walked away if the owner didn't accept my aggressive pricing to have those negative comments addressed, absolutely not.

[clutch-monkey]

if you are paying for a PPI as a buyer, especially one as a novice or perhaps not so confident in their own mechanical skills, you would not want the PPI to miss anything. old cars will be old cars, i expect something to show up. it's good to know about it, even if not a show stopper.

[JLD]

4 hours ago, smit2100 said:

^ @ symsy, thats a great post in my mind.  For those of us that buy and hold, and in frequently tyre kick, a reminder of two sides of the ledger when it comes to tyre kicking.  Game theory, the art of a  deal principles , project management principles along with devling into the the mind of a  tyre kicker on the buy side  spring to mind.   A simplistic algorithmic formulae to get you closer to your asking irrespective of the noise / non show stoppers on the PPI ( low risk items for a buyer ).  Even contemplates for when the buyer has a genuine show stopper risk and keeps them on the hook for some extra argy bargy,  instead of them moving onto to the next one on their shopping list.

@Rob.  if you know report styles alone eat into your asking that focuses on the negatives only, whats the reason  from the outset that  you have   not spent your own   pennies to protect your  dollars (asking price).    If your car is good as you think it is or what's been verbally advised,  can't you counter that negative  narrative with an alternative piece of paper that you have arranged.   With reference to your post, I can't reconcile your off the books conversations on the car not reconciling with whats memoralised in the report,  particularly If you aren't paying the bill.   Just a view but verbal discussions in your favour  have more weight when its also  memoralised in writing and you get to keep the report.    Refer to the screenshot attached of a PPI I paid for   and scroll up to the top ( eg look at the test drive heading and general report heading comments).  Above those comments were an extra 23 headings  of facts ( no issues with compression and leak down numbers and brake component measurements ) and quality associated observations (  non show stoppers for me as a buyer  or what  you refer to as negatives  but true findings ).    Did I use them to negotiate the price down aggressively, absolutely.  Would I have walked away if the owner didn't accept my aggressive pricing to have those negative comments addressed, absolutely not.

‘This vehicle drives excellent’. Do they normally work on Monaro and Sandman’s???😂

[jnr356]

so you ask for a ppi and anything wrong with the car is reported(as compared to how it came off the production line)

what were you expecting?..i am I missing something here ?

[symsy]

Suitably aged, original  , mechanical sympathy applied  , appropriate modernisation Vs To factory original spec.. hmm 

The grey zone 

[Rob]

Getting a bit confused with concours judging here...

[smit2100]

2 hours ago, Rob said:

Getting a bit confused with concours judging here...

Perhaps  some are infatuated with  concours examples or as close to condition wise and thats the baseline to which a ppi is reported  against from a quality perspective, but their virtual queues of what they are  worth is based on the last  non runner /  unrepairable writeoff ( reuseable parts only)  asking prices.  For me, concourse is at 99th percentile of the asking / transacted prices and nonrunners/ parts cars at at the 1st percentile of asking/ transacted prices.   Just a view, but buyers in the real world that are focused on pocketing a set of actual keys, subconsciously overlay the asking price curve  vs condition curve (year' specs, km's driven, colour,  how far off concours, )  with reference to  the two outlier points referenced above.   Where the two curves meet based on their biases / budgets  is what gets tyre kicked and argy bargyied on. The zone between parts car and concours condition car  could be construed as  the  " grey zone " as noted by @symsy.  Just curious, but what cost would you put on fixing all the  s#$% bits on the ppi to get it further up the closer to concours condition curve.

[jnr356]

when a tech gets given a job card that says ppi.he doesn't know the price for sale,the buyers/sellers expectations or any other nuances of the eventual deal.he can only report on the cars condition.that is up to the buyer/seller to work out.

all i know that when I do them ,if in about 10 minutes you realise the car is a dog/fishy/previously smashed etc I check that that ppi requestee still wants to proceed before going through the whole process.

as previously stated you have to have a baseline,and that is how it left the factory.

at my 3 previous Porsche workshops I was the go to guy for ppi's so I have had a bit of experience in this field and you definitely can't please everyone.

 

[smit2100]

17 hours ago, JLD said:

‘This vehicle drives excellent’. Do they normally work on Monaro and Sandman’s???😂

I am sure others can vouch that Don Munro in Brisbane is unlikely  to be a virgin at taking a 944 for a spin around the block and popping his head under a 944 hood  or chassis and wrenching on a bolt or two.  I am assuming that's a serious  not  taking the piss question given I thought I read a  recent LS1 944 thread post that a buyer would  be on the first plane to Brisvegas to checkout a  944 if not for the 14 day quarantine.  Is the reason for above question and reference to the Monaro is  that you would like it confirmed on behalf of the keen buyer as to whether Don Munro as a Porsche specialist also moonlights as well in  Holden's.  I.e just to cover the possible scenario of a  944 hood being  popped and making sure that  Don's  not flustered at perhaps  eye balling  a LS1 engine  donored from a Monaro. Production line Monaro's came out of the factory with LS1's right?😉

[JLD]

6 hours ago, smit2100 said:

I am sure others can vouch that Don Munro in Brisbane is unlikely  to be a virgin at taking a 944 for a spin around the block and popping his head under a 944 hood  or chassis and wrenching on a bolt or two.  I am assuming that's a serious  not  taking the piss question given I thought I read a  recent LS1 944 thread post that a buyer would  be on the first plane to Brisvegas to checkout a  944 if not for the 14 day quarantine.  Is the reason for above question and reference to the Monaro is  that you would like it confirmed on behalf of the keen buyer as to whether Don Munro as a Porsche specialist also moonlights as well in  Holden's.  I.e just to cover the possible scenario of a  944 hood being  popped and making sure that  Don's  not flustered at perhaps  eye balling  a LS1 engine  donored from a Monaro. Production line Monaro's came out of the factory with LS1's right?😉

A lot deeper than my piss take on his use of the English language. I’m sure he’s very good

[NBTBRV8]

On 10/04/2020 at 10:49, jnr356 said:

so you ask for a ppi and anything wrong with the car is reported(as compared to how it came off the production line)

what were you expecting?..i am I missing something here ?

I agree with this by and large.  You should fix the issues before selling it or be prepared to price it accordingly.   PPIs are designed to find issues that will present themselves in the near future or where owners have just used and not maintained the vehicle accordingly.

[michel]

 @symsy and @smit2100 put it well 

 

IME and first Newbie PORSCHE buy ... rusty asthmatic  912 for 19,000 ...long time ago . Main dealer PPI if still has in file, would only be used for substitute loo paper. But loved the car .

i get a building inspection on a property, if I’m buying...so same as if I’m buying a car, if I feel it warranted .

The last one I tried to buy . Didn’t think I needed a PPI. and have bought most of my cars without. I’m relying on seller and mine or others visual inspection.

i get though it’s a weapon of choice , To whip and cajole. So be it . And as a seller if you want to counter an apparent shellacing , whip out the file and paperwork and all the happy cars n coffee snaps
 

though as @smit2100 even if the car had a few what nots to attend and you wanting the car why walk away.

[Arnage]

I see it as just good due diligence. Mostly, sellers have a high opinion of their car & have serviced & loved it, however, in the majority of cases these owners are the last in a long line of previous owners so as a buyer we know only what this person/dealer says, log book history only tells part of the story. In other words if the current seller purchased without PPI, research etc how can you buy without a PPI of your own?

I always discuss the report with the author because they always look worse than they really are.

I see PPI as a no BS baseline & either walk, buy or negotiate depending on the report.

If a seller disputed a PPI (assuming it's from a quality well known Porsche specialist) then it's usually game over for me.

[jnr356]

11 hours ago, Arnage said:

I see it as just good due diligence. Mostly, sellers have a high opinion of their car & have serviced & loved it

this reminds me of a ppi I did on an "award winning" 356,went on a road test at the end of a ppi and checked the heater operation.well a mountain of sand filled the cabin.out of the heater vents .demister vents and into my eyes..when reported the owner was furious and had a go at me "why did you use the heater ?"

btw I did vacuum it out before it was handed back

[edgy]

13 hours ago, Arnage said:

I see it as just good due diligence. Mostly, sellers have a high opinion of their car & have serviced & loved it, however, in the majority of cases these owners are the last in a long line of previous owners so as a buyer we know only what this person/dealer says, log book history only tells part of the story. In other words if the current seller purchased without PPI, research etc how can you buy without a PPI of your own?

I always discuss the report with the author because they always look worse than they really are.

I see PPI as a no BS baseline & either walk, buy or negotiate depending on the report.

If a seller disputed a PPI (assuming it's from a quality well known Porsche specialist) then it's usually game over for me.

This ^^ 110% 

For me, I want to know what I’m working with... there’s deal breakers and there’s reasonable maintenance that’s acceptable, especially on older cars. 
 

On the matter of sellers disputing a PPI, a couple of years ago i had a guy blatantly refuse to let me do one on his car... he was the deluded type, his idea of condition was a lot different to mine... of course I had to waste my Sunday driving to Newcastle and back to find out 😂 

For all the older Porsche cars I’ve bought at any considerable price, I’ve had them PPI’d and bought every single one of them, sometimes sight unseen... I agree that it’s very important part of due diligence process... as long as you are a reasonable human being this is 😂