Whats for sale (in Australia ) and interesting Thread

[Uncle]

But a 50k 964 isn't really bubble prices?

 

Agree. It's just 964 price.

[hugh]

I think some models will languish behind the others ; people are better informed as to refurbishment and maintenance costs vs "investment potential". The media are responsible for driving the whole phenomenon ; anxiety about missing out is misplaced as there will always be plenty of 911s around. But yes , if you want a limited edition 964 you will be paying close to bubble prices as the competition is greater. Competition coming from wealthy investors , maybe not so much from drivers who inhabit forums!

 

Given the state of the economy (& with respect to labour and parts costs) I think most 911 prices are about where they should be. The exception being the "investment grade" examples , prices of which will fluctuate all over the place each time Alan Kohler flaps his hands.

Are you aware of what it costs to service and maintain a new Mercedes or other euro car? I wouldn't say its much cheaper (if any) to a Porsche and I know what I would rather have.

 

Agree with above, seems like reasonable price for that car - no records broken, no need to panic!!!! 

[Cal]

It was a rear cut from a Porsche 914. Stroked from 1.7 to 2.1 from memory. It has all the expensive Jake Raby gear from the USA plus Keith Black pistons. Having said that, it probably started life as a VW motor. It has a lot of poke for a little car.

 

I reckon it's priced fairly well too. 

[sleazius]

I'm sure that this has been posted before, but these cars aren't as rare as people make out. Unless it is pre-galvanised there are still plenty on the ground. A lot of the early cars will have been scavanged, crashed and modified, but you're still talking about a car that was mass produced.

 

Buy rare versions and you can't go wrong, buy anything else and you may just be buying into the bubble.

 

Disclaimer - personally I think $50k is fair value for *any* 911, its when values get to multiples of that for models of 911 that really aren't that rare that you have to start wondering about a bubble market.

 

I own the most produced 911 ever, in the highest production year!

 

911 production numbers

 

Model Year 1965

3.300

Model Year 1966

1.708

Model Year 1967

4.152

Model Year 1968 (A-series)

6.957

Model Year 1969 (B-series)

10.118

Model Year 1970 (C-series)

14.381

Model Year 1971 (D-series)

12.164

Model Year 1972 (E-series)

12.882

Model Year 1973 (F-series)

15.438

Model Year 1974 (G-series)

11.642

Model Year 1975 (H-series)

8.189

Model Year 1976 (J-series)

10.677

Model Year 1977 (K-series)

13.793

Model Year 1978 (L-series)

10.684

Model Year 1979 (M-series)

11.543

Model Year 1980 (A-program)

9.874

Model Year 1981 (B-program)

8.698

Model Year 1982 (C-program)

10.735

Model Year 1983 (D-program)

13.229

Model Year 1984 (E-program)

13.669

Model Year 1985 (F-program)

12.348

Model Year 1986 (G-program)

17.074

Model Year 1987 (H-program)

16.441

Model Year 1988 (J-program)

14.380

Model Year 1989 (K-program)

16.488

Model Year 1990 (L-program)

17.768

Model Year 1991 (M-program)

20.072

Model Year 1992 (N-program)

12.415

Model Year 1993 (P-program)

7.265

Model Year 1994 (R-program)

12.128

Model Year 1995 (S-program)

17.833

Model Year 1996 (T-program)

21.602

Model Year 1997 (V-program)

15.972

Model Year 1998 (W-program)

13.783

Model Year 1999 (X-program)

28.040

Model Year 2000 (Y-program)

20.979

Model Year 2001 (1-program)

27.275

Model Year 2002 (2-program)

33.013

Model Year 2003 (3-program)

29.547

Model Year 2004 (4-program)

26.526

Model Year 2005 (5-program)

28.608

Model Year 2006 (6-program)

36.504

Model Year 2007 (7-program)

38.922

Model Year 2008 (8-program)

34.270

Model Year 2009 (9-program)

27.767

Model Year 2010 (A-model)

20.136

Model Year 2010 R (B-model)

7.161

Model Year 2011 (C-model)

21.724

Model Year 2012 (D-model)

28.398

[vinnytang]

I've found a 66 912 locally thats had an average repaint a while back and a decent rhd conversion minus engine. It has bugger all rust and he's asking for under 15k. From what I've read in this thread and a few of the 912 threads, am I right to assume that it's a fairly good price?

[CarreraG50]

I'm sure that this has been posted before, but these cars aren't as rare as people make out. Unless it is pre-galvanised there are still plenty on the ground. A lot of the early cars will have been scavanged, crashed and modified, but you're still talking about a car that was mass produced.

 

Buy rare versions and you can't go wrong, buy anything else and you may just be buying into the bubble.

 

Disclaimer - personally I think $50k is fair value for *any* 911, its when values get to multiples of that for models of 911 that really aren't that rare that you have to start wondering about a bubble market.

 

I own the most produced 911 ever, in the highest production year!

 

911 production numbers

 

Model Year 1965

3.300

Model Year 1966

1.708

Model Year 1967

4.152

Model Year 1968 (A-series)

6.957

Model Year 1969 (B-series)

10.118

Model Year 1970 (C-series)

14.381

Model Year 1971 (D-series)

12.164

Model Year 1972 (E-series)

12.882

Model Year 1973 (F-series)

15.438

Model Year 1974 (G-series)

11.642

Model Year 1975 (H-series)

8.189

Model Year 1976 (J-series)

10.677

Model Year 1977 (K-series)

13.793

Model Year 1978 (L-series)

10.684

Model Year 1979 (M-series)

11.543

Model Year 1980 (A-program)

9.874

Model Year 1981 (B-program)

8.698

Model Year 1982 (C-program)

10.735

Model Year 1983 (D-program)

13.229

Model Year 1984 (E-program)

13.669

Model Year 1985 (F-program)

12.348

Model Year 1986 (G-program)

17.074

Model Year 1987 (H-program)

16.441

Model Year 1988 (J-program)

14.380

Model Year 1989 (K-program)

16.488

Model Year 1990 (L-program)

17.768

Model Year 1991 (M-program)

20.072

Model Year 1992 (N-program)

12.415

Model Year 1993 (P-program)

7.265

Model Year 1994 (R-program)

12.128

Model Year 1995 (S-program)

17.833

Model Year 1996 (T-program)

21.602

Model Year 1997 (V-program)

15.972

Model Year 1998 (W-program)

13.783

Model Year 1999 (X-program)

28.040

Model Year 2000 (Y-program)

20.979

Model Year 2001 (1-program)

27.275

Model Year 2002 (2-program)

33.013

Model Year 2003 (3-program)

29.547

Model Year 2004 (4-program)

26.526

Model Year 2005 (5-program)

28.608

Model Year 2006 (6-program)

36.504

Model Year 2007 (7-program)

38.922

Model Year 2008 (8-program)

34.270

Model Year 2009 (9-program)

27.767

Model Year 2010 (A-model)

20.136

Model Year 2010 R (B-model)

7.161

Model Year 2011 (C-model)

21.724

Model Year 2012 (D-model)

28.398

Yes but how many RHD Australian delivered.

[Coastr]

hmm i'm not so sure, especially original cars. Given they were (are) a prestige car at the time, there weren't many to begin with. Certain models like C2s didnt get much attention when new so even fewer sold. Now 20 - 40 years on they'd either been bastardised beyond the point of no return or rusted into oblivion.

Right. There are two aspects. The 911 supply is higher than many other vehicles. But the supply of unmolested, non basket case cars isn't that high, and it gets smaller each year.

The other side is the demand. There are simply many more people around than there were thirty years ago. The rise in living standards and incomes mean many are better placed for a sports can than they were even two decades ago. Ultimately it's the balance between supply and demand than determines prices - the supply is more or less fixed - for eternity - but the demand is the bit that can change. And by demand, I'm using the economist definition of a person with the means and intent to purchase, not the common definition of ' I want one'.

[Coastr]

I've found a 66 912 locally thats had an average repaint a while back and a decent rhd conversion minus engine. It has bugger all rust and he's asking for under 15k. From what I've read in this thread and a few of the 912 threads, am I right to assume that it's a fairly good price?

Sounds reasonable for a good roller, but I'd try and get it cheaper than that. Not a lot of demand for roller converted 912s. Good base for a hotrod though.

[tazzieman]

Are you aware of what it costs to service and maintain a new Mercedes or other euro car?

 

I sure am! Lots of tales of woe amongst people I know , and across many brands!

People chasing a certain cachet buy into the "euro" prestige line , at relatively bargain prices compared to the good old handbuilt days. Then they complain about service costs or parts that cannot be repaired!

I'm just pursuing a path that any smart person would follow  And blow the savings on other things in life.

[tazzieman]

hmm i'm not so sure, especially original cars. Given they were (are) a prestige car at the time, there weren't many to begin with. Certain models like C2s didnt get much attention when new so even fewer sold. Now 20 - 40 years on they'd either been bastardised beyond the point of no return or rusted into oblivion. 

So you're after the rare variant - the non-bastardised version of the standard 964? Once your preferences are focussed like this , including colour, you are swimming in a small pool with hungry sharks!

[sleazius]

Yes but how many RHD Australian delivered.

 

Australians buy 'luxury' cars above western world averages per capita. Obviously there are going to be certain years when the exchange rate was bad so we bought less, and other years where it was good so we bought more.

 

In general though, per person there are going to be more cars here than almost any other western country, (Australia has the highest ownership per capita of AMGs for example). Its one part of the reason that we get absolutely pumped by the Euro brands.

[tazzieman]

Apparently there are more Porsches per head of population in Tassy compared to other states. I'm doing my bit to distort the stats. Go Tassy!

[Simonoz]

Apparently there are more Porsches per head of population in Tassy compared to other states. I'm doing my bit to distort the stats. Go Tassy!

I wonder Tazzieman? Porsche sold 50 cars here in WA last month alone. Happy days if you're a Porsche dealer in WA.

[tazzieman]

I wonder Tazzieman? Porsche sold 50 cars here in WA last month alone. Happy days if you're a Porsche dealer in WA.

All our rich mines have been emptied or collapsed. Along with their communities. The wine industry is doing OK though , especially the vineyard run by the ex Porsche dealer here   He's got 4 Porsches.

[Dreamr]

Yes but how many RHD Australian delivered.

In 1981, there were 52 Aussie delivered 911's

In 1982, there were 56 Aussie delivered....

Sorry, can't help with other years....

EDIT...... just remembered, that was coupes.... not sure about targa's and no convertibles yet...

[michel]

Yes but how many RHD Australian delivered.

 

the simple answer to this is a very small percentage compared to overall prod numbers. And at least for pre 74 delivery by memory less than 400? I know the person who can verify - this is for 912 and 911

[michel]

I've found a 66 912 locally thats had an average repaint a while back and a decent rhd conversion minus engine. It has bugger all rust and he's asking for under 15k. From what I've read in this thread and a few of the 912 threads, am I right to assume that it's a fairly good price?

VInnytang

on face value under 15k could be good buying - depends on 'bugger all rust' how complete and condition of the interior and exterior. and cost to purchase and or recondition the bits you need.

An OK conversion is an OK conversion ditto for 911's. remembering this was what you had to do back in the day. excepting for a few principalities e.g. Canberra. Sure they are now perceived as a lesser value due to the hot world market for LHD. Wasn't so long ago you couldnt give away a LHD car... that and in OZ 901ers have placed value in orig RHD.

[Coastr]

Australians buy 'luxury' cars above western world averages per capita. Obviously there are going to be certain years when the exchange rate was bad so we bought less, and other years where it was good so we bought more.

 

In general though, per person there are going to be more cars here than almost any other western country, (Australia has the highest ownership per capita of AMGs for example). Its one part of the reason that we get absolutely pumped by the Euro brands.

 

Of course, the main reason being that the government handed a monopoly on imports to the official brands, allowing them to gouge the local populace as much as it could bear.  There is a very good reason that 993s and 964s trade at a  much higher multiple than earlier models compared with other markets - and that is because of the 1 jan 1989 cutoff on imports.  I live in hope that the death of the local industry can at least bring relief to the long suffering population of enthusiasts by opening up the import markets.  Then there is the 'luxury' tax that punishes those bourgeoisie who get ideas above their station and think about purchasing a base model 3 series. I doubt we will ever see sanity prevail and get rid of that little brainfart.

 

As for the AMGs...Australia is a land of petrol heads and relatively affordable fuel.  Given we can't get cut-price muscle cars like the US can ($120k for a Camaro? No thanks) the AMG is the natural solution.  I would have one in a heartbeat if I had the means.

 

All our rich mines have been emptied or collapsed. Along with their communities. The wine industry is doing OK though , especially the vineyard run by the ex Porsche dealer here   He's got 4 Porsches.

 

I think the death of the mining industry is a little premature!  The Galilee basin project got the green light for the $16.5 billion Carmichael project which will be one of the biggest coal mines in the world -  I think that should generate at least one or two P-car purchases along with a landfall for the local Toyota dealers! (maybe not for those in Perth - I look forward to carsales in 2035 having more QLD cars!)

[tazzieman]

 

 

 

I think the death of the mining industry is a little premature!  The Galilee basin project got the green light for the $16.5 billion Carmichael project which will be one of the biggest coal mines in the world -  I think that should generate at least one or two P-car purchases along with a landfall for the local Toyota dealers! (maybe not for those in Perth - I look forward to carsales in 2035 having more QLD cars!)

 

Talkin' 'bout Tassy mines. Dead & dying , last one this year the famous Mt Lyell mine. Too many deaths,  not enough profit.

Massive open cut mines? Not down here. Mind you there's always someone wanting to rip up the Western wilderness!

[Peter M]

 

In 1981, there were 52 Aussie delivered 911's

In 1982, there were 56 Aussie delivered....

Sorry, can't help with other years....

EDIT...... just remembered, that was coupes.... not sure about targa's and no convertibles yet...

Total number of Australian delivered 993's of all variants:

1994 - 118

1995 - 259

1996 - 252

1997 - 238

1998 - 35

So not large numbers.

My 2cents:

I think we tend to underestimate that the market place for air cooled cars will continue to get bigger as it becomes more and more global as wealth increases in India, China etc. Just look at the phenominal growth in car ownership in those two countries in the last 10 years to see that our supply of a couple hundred per model year is just a drop in the global ocean and like it or not, will be increasingly influenced by the global tide.

I'm always reminded that the world is shrinking whenever I see our local CTS advertising in Octane magazine and why they price their cars the way they do.....

[Coastr]

 

I'm always reminded that the world is shrinking whenever I see our local CTS advertising in Octane magazine and why they price their cars the way they do.....

 

Bingo!

 

They don't care about the locals with their nose up against the window grumbling Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?  They're aiming for a call from Lord Lotsofland, or the Sultan of Oilyplace asking about what shipping might be on that rust-free E-Type or Pagoda roof Benz or early 911.

[tazzieman]

Although those markets seem promising , those countries do not want old & polluting (and maybe unsafe & heaven forbid powerful & fast) cars populating their choked polluted cities , where the wealth resides. So we could have an odd situation where cars could be imported as objects e.g. sculpture , on the proviso they are not to be driven.

 

Many regulations  , Happy Browsing 

 

I think we tend to underestimate that the market place for air cooled cars will continue to get bigger as it becomes more and more global as wealth increases in India, China etc. Just look at the phenominal growth in car ownership in those two countries in the last 10 years to see that our supply of a couple hundred per model year is just a drop in the global ocean and like it or not, will be increasingly influenced by the global tide.
 

 

But in places like Gernay , "oldtimers" can hit the roads provided they pass strict originality and emissions targets. A good reason not to dick with your (+/-LHD) classic if you are seeking  top dollar one day .

[poli84]

Did you have a look at the red one on Carsales that is a similar price?

(I'm only short 20 grand and a understanding wife from buying it myself.....)

Although I have been looking at the market for the last 12 months, I'm only just now ready to roll with a good chunk in the bank.

I'm going to take a look at that red one when I get back from China in a couple of weeks but will be more for comparison as myself and my girlfriend are not overly keen on a red 964 (happy with a red IB though). 

[sleazius]

 

Total number of Australian delivered 993's of all variants:

1994 - 118

1995 - 259

1996 - 252

1997 - 238

1998 - 35

So not large numbers.

My 2cents:

I think we tend to underestimate that the market place for air cooled cars will continue to get bigger as it becomes more and more global as wealth increases in India, China etc. Just look at the phenominal growth in car ownership in those two countries in the last 10 years to see that our supply of a couple hundred per model year is just a drop in the global ocean and like it or not, will be increasingly influenced by the global tide.

I'm always reminded that the world is shrinking whenever I see our local CTS advertising in Octane magazine and why they price their cars the way they do.....

 

I agree, they're not large numbers.

 

But if we take Australian population in 1995 we get ownership levels of 1 car per 69498 people.

 

Do the same with world population in 1995 and total production for that year we get ownership of 1 car per 319632.

 

I don't have time right now to do better stats but I think you'll find even at that time we bought more per person than most places. Which means by rights we have more here per person to choose from than anywhere else. Lets also not bother to include all the imports that have come in over the years too.

 

One area that is an unknown as numerous people have said before is the rise of India and China and how that will impact demand.

[Peter M]

Deleted post because it was frankly to serious and has nothing to do with why I like old 911's!