Manual Cayman s - where are they?

[Philbee]

From 2010 there are no manual Cayman S on carsales.... Why is that?  

Whats the story?

[TrevMcRev]

Because they released PDK maybe...and everyone bought them?

[Grimmy]

There is one Black high k  well spec”d 987.2 example on Carsales. (However it is an 09) For some reason the manuals are often black.

. 

7 hours ago, TrevMcRev said:

Because they released PDK maybe...and everyone bought them?

As much as I enjoy the involvement of piloting a manual after owning a PDK for the past three years I would find it hard to go back to a manual.

Car in sports plus mode, right foot buried, manual shifting the PDK is pretty close to perfection.

[Philbee]

Excuse my lack of knowledge in this area but does "auto = pdk" for these later models or can you have just auto without pdk?

Seems pdk is such a selling point and some don't mention it in their ads.... Seems odd.

[MFX]

All of the auto Caymans and 911's after 2010 are PDK, but I believe the paddles were an option.

[RA987]

12 hours ago, Philbee said:

From 2010 there are no manual Cayman S on carsales.... Why is that?  

Whats the story?

Great question, am glad you asked.

@Niko and myself, have one of these... and they are awsome... owners hold onto them because they are the best P car ever made and the prediction is that they will double in value in the next six months...

Niko have I done enough to raise the profile ? ? 

 

 

[jakroo]

While the sales price 'doubling in 6 months' is probably more wishful thinking than fact, the modern motor vehicle almost irrespective of manufacturer is going to be an auto or some derivative.  This trend has been on the increase since the 50's and 60's and eventually the manual will fade out. Machines can change gears faster than brains/hands and can be very smart about it. Concerns over fuel economy, exhaust emissions and the eventual roll out of autonomous vehicles means that manuals will continue to decline in manufacturing. Even in big trucks, the inclusion of an auto gearbox is on the increase markedly so.

In the case of Porsche, since the 80's when they became a brand targeted towards the successful executive who would buy one to drive to and from work (most likely a 10km or less commute each way in heavy traffic,so a clutch and a thousand gear changes was a pain in the arse) as well as use it as a weekend fun driver, the majority of the cars will have been autos (think 928, 944 and 968).  In the mid 2000's the auto transmission got smartish and in more recent years has got much smarter. By design, it needed to become lighter, quicker and more robust and it has done so.  Every smidgeon of fuel saved means its not burnt and this saves fuel and lowers emissions.  Computers in the vehicles can cut fuel supply for moments to assist this (you could also use the engine high RPM cutout to achieve this to save time and not use the clutch!).  This is a big driver to a modern design along with drag coefficients and raw materials used.

Manual gearboxes are going the way of the dodo.  I'm not saying that this is a good thing or not, nor predicting when the eventual demise will be but simply stating what is occurring out there.  You're seeing it in the car world, and specifically the Porsche world cos that's the one you're looking at.  But's it in 4x4's, sedate sedans, utes, trucks, high performance cars.....

[Niko]

2 hours ago, RA987 said:

Great question, am glad you asked.

@Niko and myself, have one of these... and they are awsome... owners hold onto them because they are the best P car ever made and the prediction is that they will double in value in the next six months...

Niko have I done enough to raise the profile ? ? 

 

 

Definitely Rocco, but I would have thought they would have tripled in price actually..

 

51 minutes ago, jakroo said:

 

Manual gearboxes are going the way of the dodo.  I'm not saying that this is a good thing or not, nor predicting when the eventual demise will be but simply stating what is occurring out there.  

Than along comes Jakroo, and smashes that theory to pieces..

But... I would think there will always be people out there who want certain things (Manual Porkers) in their garage to keep, show to the grand kids and drive them occasionally.    Lets hope so.    

Also like you Rocco, I rarely drive mine in traffic

so I love the 6 speed, and the MAN PEDAL. 

[Troubleshooter]

5 hours ago, Philbee said:

Excuse my lack of knowledge in this area but does "auto = pdk" for these later models or can you have just auto without pdk?

Seems pdk is such a selling point and some don't mention it in their ads.... Seems odd.

You're excused Philbee - but only this once! As part of this forum you're expected to know all the general info of old and modern Porsche sports cars, no excuses Spending too much time driving and not reading hmmm? Something in that....

[deano]

well, +1 for a manual.

I'm looking forward to getting back in a manual again in hopefully 1 months time if my Boxster gets here.

There's definitely a scarcity of manuals on the ground, to the point when taking test drives, there were no manuals anywhere, and I still have never driven a P that's manual..

And also no manuals on pre order either. It seems everyone wants PDK now, and no dealers are prepared to take a punt and order a manual if for stock, lest they get stuck with it.

My BMW 428 was auto with paddles, but it's not the same, and part of the reason for a change.

I'd rather sacrifice a poofteenth of 0-100 time for the ability to pick my gears myself.

Hope you find one Philbee

[sleazius]

I just ordered a manual, supposedly about a 50/50 split on the GT3. You are right though, unless it's a GT car, manuals are thin on the ground since the advent of PDK.

[scashin]

Manuals are really rare.  I've been tracking for a year and only seen two Cayman S 987.2 in manual.   Plus 987.2 was during the GFC so people were trying to save businesses or houses rather then buy a Porsche 

[Niko]

1 hour ago, deano said:

well, +1 for a manual.

I'm looking forward to getting back in a manual again in hopefully 1 months time if my Boxster gets here.

There's definitely a scarcity of manuals on the ground, to the point when taking test drives, there were no manuals anywhere, and I still have never driven a P that's manual..

And also no manuals on pre order either. It seems everyone wants PDK now, and no dealers are prepared to take a punt and order a manual if for stock, lest they get stuck with it.

My BMW 428 was auto with paddles, but it's not the same, and part of the reason for a change.

I'd rather sacrifice a poofteenth of 0-100 time for the ability to pick my gears myself.

Hope you find one Philbee

Well said that man...

[LeeM]

5 hours ago, jakroo said:

 Concerns over fuel economy, exhaust emissions and the eventual roll out of autonomous vehicles 

 Every smidgeon of fuel saved means its not burnt and this saves fuel and lowers emissions.  Computers in the vehicles can cut fuel supply for moments to assist this 

  If people have fuel saving /lower emissions in mind as a consideration when buying a sports car, maybe they should look at buying a Prius, or catching the bus/train so they can sip their soy latte's and eat their lentil sandwiches whilst reading Vegan Life magazine ?

[Troubleshooter]

4 minutes ago, LeeM said:

  If people have fuel saving /lower emissions in mind as a consideration when buying a sports car, maybe they should look at buying a Prius, or catching the bus/train so they can sip their soy latte's and eat their lentil sandwiches whilst reading Vegan Life magazine ?

genuine soyboys lack the testosterone to wrestle a gearstick incessantly

[MFX]

I think a lot of the issue is that the larger part of the market of new P car buyers are not driving enthusiasts as much as buying for the image and the quality so they want the 'auto'. Of the smaller pool of enthusiast buyers, they are also split. A lot want the faster car so they choose PDK, and the even the ones who would prefer a manual but know they are going to daily it in traffic get the PDK. That leaves a very small pool of non-daily, raw driving, enthusiasts buying manuals. 

[Grimmy]

6 hours ago, deano said:

well, +1 for a manual.

I'm looking forward to getting back in a manual again in hopefully 1 months time if my Boxster gets here.

There's definitely a scarcity of manuals on the ground, to the point when taking test drives, there were no manuals anywhere, and I still have never driven a P that's manual..

And also no manuals on pre order either. It seems everyone wants PDK now, and no dealers are prepared to take a punt and order a manual if for stock, lest they get stuck with it.

My BMW 428 was auto with paddles, but it's not the same, and part of the reason for a change.

I'd rather sacrifice a poofteenth of 0-100 time for the ability to pick my gears myself.

Hope you find one Philbee

Please understand that you most certainly can select what gear you want to be in with PDK, place the lever in manual mode and you have complete control over what gear you are in (it won’t allow you to downshift and over rev the engine however) with the huge advantage of lightning fast changes between gears with the aggression of the change determined by what mode you are in Normal, sport or sport plus. Going back to my earlier comments in manual mode, right foot planted (not lifting between changes) mashing up the gears (manually) with the instant and aggressive snap is so impressive (and quick)

IT IS ESSENTIALLY Two manual gear boxes that each have a seperate clutch one side being odd and the other even gears, drive to the output shaft is only ever on one side of the gearbox at a time with the next gear preselected on the other side. The computer works out If that preselected gear should  be up or down a gear and ( in manual mode) waits for you to tell it to shift..There is NO torque converter like a conventional auto or what Porsche called Tiptronic. 

I like both manual clutch based gearboxes and PDK cars but the manual does feel a bit clunky and slow after spending time manually shifting a PDK box.

12 hours ago, Philbee said:

Excuse my lack of knowledge in this area but does "auto = pdk" for these later models or can you have just auto without pdk?

Seems pdk is such a selling point and some don't mention it in their ads.... Seems odd.

No PDK translates to Dual Clutch.  It is not in anyway a conventional torque converter, planetary gear automatic that was the tiptronic. 

PDK has two modes full auto shift or manual shift in auto mode the car drives like a convential automatic as far as it changes gears itself however there is none of the “slushiness” associated with torque converters in traditional auto”s 

A lot of people don’t understand that PDK does allow complete control over when shifts occur in manual mode however it won’t allow you to go into the wrong gear whilst shifting down and overreving the engine.  Ie. going for third but dropping into 1st by accident at 80k”S an hour 

it does however do away with the clutch pedal as clutching is controlled by software, the speed and response comes from not having to drop drive to the output shaft whilst changing gears (ie clutch pedal in) instead if you are in 3rd and accelerating 4th is already engaged on the other side of the box and drive is simply transferred from that side. 

[Philbee]

Thanks @Grimmylike the PDK education.... changing gears without lifting the right foot would be kind of a buzz I'm guessing ...  and following @MFXcomments the PDK sounds like the  evolution of manual for most drivers... only a very small (& reducing) numbers will stick with the old manual on a new car. If manual is your thing get an older car I guess...

[Redracn]

7 hours ago, deano said:

 

I'd rather sacrifice a poofteenth of 0-100 time for the ability to pick my gears myself.

Just wondering why you can only pick your gears yourself with a manual? ? If thats the case I guess I will have to stop picking my gears myself using PDK paddles.? 

[TwoHeadsTas]

Mmmm.  I love our 6 sp manual 987 Boxster, but admit to having not yet fallen totally in love with my "new" 996.2 Tip.  I was thinking that i'd look to change to a manual Cayman S if the love affair didn't continue, so perhaps i might be out of luck finding such a thing then.  And sounds like i wouldn't find a non-black one either?

[jakroo]

LeeM,

It's not necessarily just the choice by consumer but also the manufacturer. 

Once Porsche decide to sell auto or PDK, the clutch is gone forever in those cars. 

My gut feel is that Porsche would still sell all the cars they could build if they dropped a fully manual gearbox from the line up.   Lots of consumer stink but there'd still be people queuing to buy the cars.

Grimmy,

The PDK isn't the same as a manual gearbox.   As you stated, it will override your choice if necessary.  It will not allow you to select 4th gear at the traffic lights and drive off.... It'll select 1st and off you go. And the same goes for other idiot possibilities that the truly manual gearbox allows such as high speed drop from 4th to 1st.

[RA987]

It's all got to complicated.... I will persist with the good old fashion stick...in my Cayman s 987.2

 

[LeeM]

3 minutes ago, jakroo said:

LeeM,

   Lots of consumer stink but there'd still be people queuing to buy the cars.

 Yeah I know mate, no question there ?

  In all honesty, I'll have to reluctantly go to an auto/pdk car eventually, as after every run in the hills in the SC, my buggered left knee gives me hell for a few days afterwards

[DJM]

Having recently driven a 991.1 GT3 PDK on track, I came away hugely impressed at the ability to intuitively change up or down in auto mode including aggressive down changes into corners, as well as the full manual mode if desired.  Much much better than I expected.  No doubt quicker than a manual and easier to drive fast. But a hint of PlayStation about it I felt.

BUT Its a different experience to a manual.  I prefer the additional engagement that comes with the clutch pedal and gear lever in my GT4 (which also does the rev match thing to make you feel like a heel and toe hero)

Its kind of analogous to the new turbo engines in 911s and 718s - by any rational assessment (power, torque, acceleration, fuel economy) the new engines are better but lots of us still prefer the idea of NA even if slower, thirstiest, less efficient.  Watch Chris Harris review of 718 Boxster S - without the flat 6 sound, what's the point.

If fastest and most efficient is best, we'll all be happy in Teslas.

[Grimmy]

7 hours ago, jakroo said:

LeeM,

It's not necessarily just the choice by consumer but also the manufacturer. 

Once Porsche decide to sell auto or PDK, the clutch is gone forever in those cars. 

My gut feel is that Porsche would still sell all the cars they could build if they dropped a fully manual gearbox from the line up.   Lots of consumer stink but there'd still be people queuing to buy the cars.

Grimmy,

The PDK isn't the same as a manual gearbox.   As you stated, it will override your choice if necessary.  It will not allow you to select 4th gear at the traffic lights and drive off.... It'll select 1st and off you go. And the same goes for other idiot possibilities that the truly manual gearbox allows such as high speed drop from 4th to 1st.

Yes indeed if you forget you are in manual mode and come to a stop it will indeed select 1st for you to drive off. However if you continue to forget that you are in manual mode it will not shift up to second and just like a convential single clutch manual gearbox bounce off the rev limiter until you select 2nd.

I don’t fully understand why Porsche enthusiasts especially consider a clutch pedal to be a purest Porsche thing. For a long long time Porsche have been instrumental in trying to remove the clutch pedal, sportomatic, tiptronic and the early implementation of PDK which was for race purposes only and far too costly and complex to dumb down for road car use.