Backdating a G series

[Samp]

Has anyone gone through a conversion of a 964 or G series to a long nose?  I am thinking of doing this but don’t really know where to start.   I assume that you need 3 new front panels.  Can the rear be changes easily with a new bumper or are there mods required on the rear tail lights? Does anyone know the cost associated with this?    I would like to make it look like a singer at a significantly reduced rate.  

[hugh]

Hi Samp, have you got a g-series or a 964?
Seeing as you’ve just joined I’ll go easy..........best advice is to stop looking at Singers, keep it real, keep it Porsche. You can thank me in a couple of years when you haven’t bankrupted yourself trying to create an ugly tribute to a tribute. 

Backdating can be a neat option pending the donor car, just don’t try and make it look anything like a Singer. Please! 
 

[OBRUT]

Good advice.  
 

And it’s about to get pretty funny as the real Singers (5 or 6 at last count) start being delivered here and will be parked at Cars and Coffee next to the home brews. 

[LeeM]

 @Samp Wise advice from Hugh mate.

 I backdated my G series on a VERY limited budget (under $2500) with me doing the work and no prior experience with modifying cars, as I don't like the impact bumper look at all, and backdating mine was my sole intention from the start.

 It depends how good you want it to come out really. Do you want a car that looks mint with all the bells and whistles, or just a car that has been converted to a longhood that you can drive and not worry about? 

 You're best option to see how its done, is to have a look at 'Home Built by Jeff' on YouTube (who is @MFX on here), as he explains it very simply with what you have to do and what to avoid. There are other ways to do it like I did on the cheap, and theres also very expensive ways of doing it.

 To answer your question re the rear bumper. I did mine from start to finish, including removing the old bumper and cutting off the reflector panel (a requirement you can't escape, but cut it right and it can be welded back on if required), then fitting the backdate bumper within 3 hours total, done, finito. And no, you don't need to modify the lights or the rear guards if you buy the correct RS bumper, as I still had my SC lights fitted...I never took them off actually. The front takes longer, yet I added fibreglass indicator bezels to the standard SC guards, when I should have fitted metal ones, but was on a small budget. I bought front and rear bumpers second hand for $1000 the pair, front bezels were $350/pair, hood I swapped my G series with a mate who had modified his G series to a longhood, new plastic horn grilles $80, used front indicator lenses $100. The bezels needed work to fit and gave the desired effect, yet metal ones welded to the guards is a lot better quality. I'm not mega fussy, so I'm happy with what I've done.

 Oh, and I sold all the original bumpers etc which covered the cost all of my backdate parts and a some change in the pocket.

 Parts costs varies depending who you buy from, and whether you can source them second hand. New, you'd probably pay $3000-4000 and up for full guards, hood and bumpers. Buying from overseas adds freight costs which will add to the cost blowout, so sourcing parts locally (Mike Tankard if he's still operating) will keep costs down.

 If you have to pay someone to do all the work, then bank on $100-200/hour which will add up very quickly. I've heard some have paid $50-80k to do a backdate job, yet thats probably just the 'Porsche tax' being added 😁

 I'm told a 964 is harder/more expensive to do, but I have no idea why that is, so I imagine a G series would be easier/cheaper to do.

 

[Coastr]

There are soecific parts you can buy for the panels.  It’s a lot more than just the bumpers and turn signals if you want the authentic look.  Mirrors, trim, engine grill, rockers, wipers etc etc.  Then there is the interior which will mismatch to the body if you care about that.

Singe are an all-new carbon fibre body on a stripped chassis, you can’t recreate them without doing the same. 
if you’re after the look best bet is to find one already done and enjoy.

 

[Samp]

8 hours ago, hugh said:

Hi Samp, have you got a g-series or a 964?
Seeing as you’ve just joined I’ll go easy..........best advice is to stop looking at Singers, keep it real, keep it Porsche. You can thank me in a couple of years when you haven’t bankrupted yourself trying to create an ugly tribute to a tribute. 

Backdating can be a neat option pending the donor car, just don’t try and make it look anything like a Singer. Please! 
 

Hi Hugh, I am in the process of purchasing a 1974 911s targa.  It is having a PPI tomorrow and s/t it not being too bad I will purchase it. I was dreaming of a singer but it is out of my budget so I thought I would buy an old G and do it up the way I want it to look. I will certainly take your advice and drive it for a couple of years as is, see if I fall in love with it and consider keeping it original.  I do, however want to redo the interior with old style recaro seats.  It needs a Re spray and new rear bumper so this is why I thought.........why not go all the way.  

6 hours ago, Coastr said:

There are soecific parts you can buy for the panels.  It’s a lot more than just the bumpers and turn signals if you want the authentic look.  Mirrors, trim, engine grill, rockers, wipers etc etc.  Then there is the interior which will mismatch to the body if you care about that.

Singe are an all-new carbon fibre body on a stripped chassis, you can’t recreate them without doing the same. 
if you’re after the look best bet is to find one already done and enjoy.

 

Thanks Coastr, I looked into the singer and it is completely outside of my budget. I am wanting to restore the old G series with around 50K max, so haven’t got money to burn,  I may leave the outside as is, just Re spray, new panels as required. Cheers

6 hours ago, LeeM said:

 @Samp Wise advice from Hugh mate.

 I backdated my G series on a VERY limited budget (under $2500) with me doing the work and no prior experience with modifying cars, as I don't like the impact bumper look at all, and backdating mine was my sole intention from the start.

 It depends how good you want it to come out really. Do you want a car that looks mint with all the bells and whistles, or just a car that has been converted to a longhood that you can drive and not worry about? 

 You're best option to see how its done, is to have a look at 'Home Built by Jeff' on YouTube (who is @MFX on here), as he explains it very simply with what you have to do and what to avoid. There are other ways to do it like I did on the cheap, and theres also very expensive ways of doing it.

 To answer your question re the rear bumper. I did mine from start to finish, including removing the old bumper and cutting off the reflector panel (a requirement you can't escape, but cut it right and it can be welded back on if required), then fitting the backdate bumper within 3 hours total, done, finito. And no, you don't need to modify the lights or the rear guards if you buy the correct RS bumper, as I still had my SC lights fitted...I never took them off actually. The front takes longer, yet I added fibreglass indicator bezels to the standard SC guards, when I should have fitted metal ones, but was on a small budget. I bought front and rear bumpers second hand for $1000 the pair, front bezels were $350/pair, hood I swapped my G series with a mate who had modified his G series to a longhood, new plastic horn grilles $80, used front indicator lenses $100. The bezels needed work to fit and gave the desired effect, yet metal ones welded to the guards is a lot better quality. I'm not mega fussy, so I'm happy with what I've done.

 Oh, and I sold all the original bumpers etc which covered the cost all of my backdate parts and a some change in the pocket.

 Parts costs varies depending who you buy from, and whether you can source them second hand. New, you'd probably pay $3000-4000 and up for full guards, hood and bumpers. Buying from overseas adds freight costs which will add to the cost blowout, so sourcing parts locally (Mike Tankard if he's still operating) will keep costs down.

 If you have to pay someone to do all the work, then bank on $100-200/hour which will add up very quickly. I've heard some have paid $50-80k to do a backdate job, yet thats probably just the 'Porsche tax' being added 😁

 I'm told a 964 is harder/more expensive to do, but I have no idea why that is, so I imagine a G series would be easier/cheaper to do.

 

Thanks, I will check it out.  I am a bit worried about cost as I want it to look authentic and am useless at doing stuff myself.  Have you got photos of what you have done. I would be interested

[LeeM]

14 minutes ago, Samp said:

 

Thanks, I will check it out.  I am a bit worried about cost as I want it to look authentic and am useless at doing stuff myself.  Have you got photos of what you have done. I would be interested

 A '74 is the perfect car being a narrow body if you're wanting to backdate. If you want a car to look authentic inside and out, then yeah you'll be up for a decent amount of cash, but you don't have to do it all at once

 I'll find my build thread and tag you in it

[hugh]

I’m obviously an old romantic as the Singer “look” doesn’t appeal to me at all. I get backdating as people want the vintage look but whilst a Singer is loosely based on a long hood, they are a completely modern interpretation - nothing authentically vintage about them. There are a heap of companies out there doing backdate jobbies and the more successful examples look actually like something authentically Porsche, not something that so obviously screams backdate like any Singer tribute does. 
 

A 74 chrome hoop targa sounds super peachy. Spend your $$$ on stuff that will make it drive better, embrace the early g narrow body goodness. Impact bumpers are rad. The more research you do into Porsches the more you’ll hopefully see what is out there and Singers aren’t the be all end all. 

[Peter John]

“Backdate Jobbie” phrase of the day @hugh

[OBRUT]

5 hours ago, hugh said:

I’m obviously an old romantic as the Singer “look” doesn’t appeal to me at all. I get backdating as people want the vintage look but whilst a Singer is loosely based on a long hood, they are a completely modern interpretation - nothing authentically vintage about them. There are a heap of companies out there doing backdate jobbies and the more successful examples look actually like something authentically Porsche, not something that so obviously screams backdate like any Singer tribute does. 
 

A 74 chrome hoop targa sounds super peachy. Spend your $$$ on stuff that will make it drive better, embrace the early g narrow body goodness. Impact bumpers are rad. The more research you do into Porsches the more you’ll hopefully see what is out there and Singers aren’t the be all end all. 

Word. 

[cafe_racer]

Car sounds superb, spending $50k making it look like something it is not might be overcapitalising and may be hard to recoup at a later date.  If you are after the old school look you can probably nearly get one for the current cost of a G Series +$50k (maybe).

 

If you are after old school looks with a bigger engine, now that hot rod territory.  

 

Hugh says some wise words, embrace the G series, and upgrade some things that matter, I have done on a couple of cars the following whilst keeping looks in with period correct:

new carpets

electric a/c

reupholster seats

engine rebuild

elephant racing suspension refresh

 

The above should eat into your $50k easily!

[Samp]

Thanks for your advice. After all I am hearing I think I have been barking up the wrong tree and will spend my money more wisely.  It needs a paintjob so its going to be motor, paint, interior  followed by suspension. I just googled elephant racing suspension. Why is this so good and what does it set you back?  Is it something that you just go into your porsche mechanic and they fit or do you buy it and then get someone to install as I am not capable.

[Dalai]

A neat, untampered narrow body G series chrome hoop targa is super sexy. Too many have been butchered over the years - forward or backdated, wider SC guards welded on etc. You will have something less common and desirable if visually kept close to original. 

Get it looking, handling and running nicely and you will have a great car!

[Samp]

cheers

[Peter John]

@JerrySeinfeld has a beauty- narrow body with impact bumpers do confuse you, dazzle if you will. I like.

[Merv]

3 hours ago, Dalai said:

A neat, untampered narrow body G series chrome hoop targa is super sexy. Too many have been butchered over the years - forward or backdated, wider SC guards welded on etc. You will have something less common and desirable if visually kept close to original. 

Get it looking, handling and running nicely and you will have a great car!

10-15 years ago, backdating was all the rage with the IB cars. It was just the thing to do.  These days people, including me, have now started to appreciate them for the fine looking cars they are. A nicely sorted early IB, with less money than a backdate spent on its mechanicals and suspension, is a great car. And when the day comes to sell ...

[Peter M]

I'm with you Merv, the long hoods are too dainty, give me some meaty impact bumpers any day.

 

They are also the car of my youth!

[LeeM]

30 minutes ago, Merv said:

10-15 years ago, backdating was all the rage with the IB cars. It was just the thing to do.  These days people, including me, have now started to appreciate them for the fine looking cars they are. A nicely sorted early IB, with less money than a backdate spent on its mechanicals and suspension, is a great car. And when the day comes to sell 

 I'll respectfully disagree there Merv.

 Since the introduction of Singer 10 years ago, theres been a huge demand for backdating globally, and very long waiting lists at most 'bespoke' builders. There's even companies who started up to ONLY do backdating, so there is a huge market for them, and some have sold for big dollars compared to a standard car, as that's what some people prefer.

[michel]

To the OP . Backdate,  forward date, as you please,  what you are seeing in these and my posts to your Q is the turn of the wheel and fads and fashions wax n wane.

My moment of standing at the trough,

do your research

get the car , drive it get it set and  hunkered right on good wheels , go wildly fun in anyway you wish on the interior play with exhausts etc 

form your own thoughts 

do your research 

I like the G series cars after years of thinking them not so great. More so love a shiny hooped targa or blk for that matter 

Even had a fave G car - sporto with paint that would fall off it when you hit 90hm/h and tartan seat inserts 

nothing wrong in driving a well sorted mechanically and interior trimmed 911 with sun roached dull faded flaky paint 

And there ain’t nuthin wrong in doin a backdate ... don’t let nobody tell ya otherwise 

[Samp]

Cheers. Will do

 

[Merv]

10 hours ago, LeeM said:

 I'll respectfully disagree there Merv.

 Since the introduction of Singer 10 years ago, theres been a huge demand for backdating globally, and very long waiting lists at most 'bespoke' builders. There's even companies who started up to ONLY do backdating, so there is a huge market for them, and some have sold for big dollars compared to a standard car, as that's what some people prefer.

You are right Lee. The bespoke producers like Singer have really been at it.  They have made some very large investments in making cars with an early 911 look from G Series and even 964's. They produce a stunning array of specialist cars with prices that reflect their large investments in design. I was trying to refer to the  'home builder' trend here and elsewhere a few years ago where many went down a similar track with the G series and finished up with expensive components added to cars that in many cases did not reach the sophistication of the Singer-like transformations, or their residual values.

[LeeM]

 Ah gotcha @Merv...people like me using fiberglass, hot melt glue and electrical tape 😅👍

[Coastr]

Lots of fine advice here to sort the car mechanically before you spend a cent on cosmetics.  No matter what you do with the body, it will drive the same unless you change major components.  Maybe you care more about aesthetics than driving, but give the 74 a go and see how you feel after some seat time.  

Most people end up chasing even better driving experience after a while and tend to postpone cosmetic changes as a result.

[Heritage Parts Centre]

If it helps we have just published this article.  Since this came out there are front indicator housings available to attach to the later wings to save having to replace the entire wing now (In metal). 

Front Wing Lower Section, Left, For Backdating

Backdating a 911

[Coastr]

 an Australian site I would suggest saying ‘guards’.  Wings are for the back when you go racing !