Shed Thread

[Pork Chops]

OK guys, I'm going to rely on the collective wisdom on this forum to help me build a decent cave.  Assume land space isn't an issue (rural), but that construction costs are.  The idea is to have a space that can store many a car and an adjacent space that is a furnished man cave.  

My thoughts at this stage will be to start with a shed and modifying it to suit as this will be the cheapest way of creating the building envelope.  You can insulate the shed, which I'll do for the whole structure, but the man cave section I want plastered, where as the car part I'm happy to leave as a shed.  I like the offering from Ranbiuld below for a few different reasons but that said I've far from done a lot of research on alternatives.  Let's use it as a start point for the discussion.

https://www.ranbuild.com.au/products/

The property is in a bushfire area, needs electricity and running water and would have bottled gas in the event that's needed.  Depending on the location of the shed versus the main dwelling I may consider solar and a storage battery but have no idea of how much can be generated and stored versus what will be required to run heating / cooling, lights, compressor, car stackers etc.  Not that there is only single phase power to the property.  Water has to be via a tank as there is no water connection to the property.  No dunny as I don't want to install another shit eating worm system and I'm not sure that would get through planning as it will be seen as a dwelling not a shed.

So the things that need discussing are many and varied:

1. Cost effective building methods if not a shed
2. If a shed, good shed companies
3. Layout and configuration (dimensions, designs) of both spaces
4. The right concrete to use for a decorative finish (not just your crappy old structural concrete)
5. Interior design ideas - those of you who know me will understand I'm a man of style and things like fake bars, glass topped tables on old engine blocks, old petrol pumps etc are not going to be considered for the man cave part.  Kitchenette for BBQs and boozing, couch, desk for 'working'.  Depending on what the regs allow I'd be keen for some frameless bifolds (I do them) onto a timber deck off the man cave and for the area to be good for socialising with like minded individuals

My drafting skills are clearly poor but you get the idea....Externally I want it to blend into the land as best as possible and it will be placed on a cut out of leveled ground so will have a retaining wall behind it.  I was thinking of growing some ficus vine up the outside to make it nice and green and take the edge of the nasty tin shed look.

Here are some images from Ranbuild of a job they did recently

 

 

@hugh

@turboT

@itsujack

@Redracn

Who else?

Whoever just liked this thread, your forum name is . ?

 

[Ozvino]

@Pork Chops, how the hell do you get the time between business, your car escapades and being an Instagram whore ???? 

I assume you made an anonymous call to your local Nazi Party Branch Council to establish what is allowed by the Oberfuhrer? Make sure you don't tell them who you are or where you live when you make enquiries.

Solar with a battery is a good idea, as would be catching the water for use in the shed. Also think about natural light (windows/Skylights) with security grills and allow for removable bollards when they pour the concrete - so much easier.

Stacker options are a must, so think about slab/footing sizes during the design phase

[hugh]

Not quite sure where to start............Budget would be my first question? (I'll leave the colour until later!) 

[Pork Chops]

@Pork Chops, how the hell do you get the time between business, your car escapades and being an Instagram whore ???? 

I assume you made an anonymous call to your local Nazi Party Branch Council to establish what is allowed by the Oberfuhrer? Make sure you don't tell them who you are or where you live when you make enquiries.

Solar with a battery is a good idea, as would be catching the water for use in the shed. Also think about natural light (windows/Skylights) with security grills and allow for removable bollards when they pour the concrete - so much easier.

Stacker options are a must, so think about slab/footing sizes during the design phase

I don't sleep .

Not called council but have had a chat with the Ranbuild guys who will take care of all of that.  They're quite used to dealing with council and even told me they'll take it all to VCAT on my behalf if they don't agree with any of their decisions.  But yes, that is a good place to start in terms of planning.  They are on first name terms with the local planning authority so should be easy to suss out.

Natural light is very important so for that reason and for the reason of orientating the solar panels the right way I'll try for a northern orientation and for the roofs to be sloping the right way.  If a double skillion I was thinking an opaque window in the vertical section between the higher and lower roof sections.

And yes was thinking about slab thickness and casting in the 'in concrete' part of the removable bollards.  Security will be a major focus.

Not quite sure where to start............Budget would be my first question? (I'll leave the colour until later!) 

The shed in the images above is $75k end to end.  Think upward from that as it's fairly basic and smaller than what I have in mind.  Be very interested if there is a better way to build for the money.  OR.  If there is a substantially better way of building for not a lot more money.  My actual dream (money aside) is brick and concrete with a full residence above it, but that may as well be an entire house I'm building, which is not on the cards financially.  I was thinking slab, steel portal frame and then plonk some Modscape units on the frame.  Sheet or brick in the sides.  Again would be expensive.

Forgot to tag Doug @DJM

Size wise I was thinking 16.0m x 10.0m overall but that's a pretty rough estimate.  Can't imagine it getting bigger.  I just stepped that out and it's nearly as big as my house!  Maybe not that big...

[Ozvino]

Not quite sure where to start............Budget would be my first question? (I'll leave the colour until later!) 

@hugh I feel I should call the AIA and get you delisted ! I have never heard an Architect ask that question straight off the bat !!! Comendable

 

[MFX]

My shed is from Ranbuilt, and I am very happy with it. I have 4 opaque roof sheets, which let in a great amount of natural light. The more the better, the only issue is insulating that, so your double skin sounds like an option. Mine is 7 x 12 which is great for 4 cars, although even with my 1m bench on the side, I could fit 3 911's width wise as a reasonably tight fit. 

The other thing to consider, is if you want to put in a hoist at some stage, get the foundation reinforced in that area from the start, I have done that in mine so it is 200mm thick, over the standard 100mm, where the hoist can go.

[Pork Chops]

^ from now on when I watch your videos I'll be looking at the shed .  How easy would it be to sheet out the inside?  Do the details support that?

[Redracn]

Are you looking to get on this chops?

https://www.facebook.com/GarageGoals/?fref=ts

some drool worthy stuff there. 

I have a 7KVA generator and it struggles to start my single phase car hoist. Turn on the lights and it is too much. Single phase air compressor is just as bad. Going solar/battey is doable and I doubt your overall consumption will be that high but you will need to upscale the inverter just to run  the high current stuff especially the starting currents which can be more than 6 x higher than running current. I would suggest a min 10kva inverter or if you want to run a water pump, aircon, lights and use a car hoist at the same time then 20KVA would be better. Anything more serious like a big welding job/3phase stuff then a genset is a must. 

I had a shed built by Ranbuild and they did all the council stuff with no issues. 

 

[Pork Chops]

Are you looking to get on this chops?

https://www.facebook.com/GarageGoals/?fref=ts

some drool worthy stuff there. 

I have a 7KVA generator and it struggles to start my single phase car hoist. Turn on the lights and it is too much. Single phase air compressor is just as bad. Going solar/battey is doable and I doubt your overall consumption will be that high but you will need to upscale the inverter just to run  the high current stuff especially the starting currents which can be more than 6 x higher than running current. I would suggest a min 10kva inverter or if you want to run a water pump, aircon, lights and use a car hoist at the same time then 20KVA would be better. Anything more serious like a big welding job/3phase stuff then a genset is a must. 

I had a shed built by Ranbuild and they did all the council stuff with no issues. 

 

From that FB page are some great examples of where I'm not going...some cool stuff too.

Another Ranbuild success is encouraging.  Re the tech stuff I reckon the 20KVA is enough (even though I've got no idea what it is) and I'll start my enquiries around that.  Is the type of contractor I'm looking for a solar panel installation company?  If so can you recommend someone reputable?  

Many thanks.

Not going here....

[Ozvino]

For maximum wank-effect/my man cave is better than yours

https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/powerwall

 

[Pork Chops]

For maximum wank-effect/my man cave is better than yours

https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/powerwall

 

This is right up my Kirsty Allie.

[itsujack]

Mate, please please don't do one of those horrid numbers that look like a tin shed that's been butchered and added to over a few decades. Make one large volume and use some clever operable wall system to reconfigure into different zones and open/close down as needed... if only you knew where to procure such a system... 

and yes PV roof and a battery or two for charging your future p cars... 

 

[DJM]

My mind is not quite on the job as I wake in Adenau, Germany behind Ring Garage who have the E92 M3 prepped and ready for our Nordeschleife laps later this morning......?

anyway, we’ve being investigating battery storage options recently.  It’s probably reaching a point where it becomes affordable and we’re expecting to see a push from clients to incorporate this technology.  I have 8kW of solar on my roof so I will install batteries at some stage - currently I dump a heap of power into the grid and get something like 5c for it then I come home and start drawing power at what 30 cents?  If I had batteries I’d probably have enough to run the house which would wipe out bills and make me feel good

I know Bradford are doing a lot of solar installs.  We use Chromagen for solar hot water and solar PV and they can now do batteries too.  It’s a bit like buying a PC or TV, the longer you wait the cheaper they get but when is the RIGHT time to buy in.  On the other hand why is everyone obsessed with payback periods on solar.  I don’t recall calculating a payback period on a Porsche!

[LeeM]

I'm with him ^ One big square/rectangle shed, and build a mancave inside it. Whether you do relocatable walls is up to you, but whacking up a frame 2700 high then clad it with insulation isnt hard. Or I've seen a bloke install a used Atco hut in his shed and decked it out. That was pretty cool

[DJM]

Back to the original question, I would expect a pre fab option is the cheapest.  Presumably “remote” location would reinforce that.  And the fact they handle all the Eng, permits etc is worthwhile.  I tend to agree it will not be as “nice” as a well designed and framed up number.  I’m thinking rattly and drafty tin shed versus solid, comfortable out building.  I don’t know the cost comparison and how well they can build, seal, finish to make a shed a credible option?

as for concrete finish, at our office we simply ground and polished the warehouse floor sight unseen (we lease it so we had no idea what the concrete was) and it came up a treat.  That’s the finish for reception, design studio, toilets, lunch room etc so it’s on show and looks good. Not sealed either so it doesn’t wear out and need refinishing.  It’s just plain grey concrete with black agg.  If you want a more decorative finish, you can change the concrete mix entirely to have colour cement and stone.  Mentone premix have a range of mixes you can choose from but the price per cube skyrockets.  

http://mpmextremefloors.com.au/

Or you can pour a thinner topping slab and polish that but I’d be concerned about structural integrity.   Or use a polished concrete veneer such as Pangaea over the structural slab.  10mm thick epoxy type stuff that gets poured and polished.  They use it on the block a few seasons ago. Doesn’t look particularly legit though.  Oh and it’s “from $260/Sqm”!!!

https://www.pangaeafloors.com.au/

My advice would be plain conc and random exposure grind and polish.  Come to my office Dandy South if you want to see how that looks.  Companies like CCC can quote.    I reckon they race in Carrera cup too?

http://www.cccpolishedconcrete.com.au/

We used someone else can’t recall.  From memory we paid $50/Sqm for random exposure grind/polish but that was cheap because it was a big vacant space 500sqm.  Cheaper than any other finish including tiling, toppings, Pangaea etc.

[ANF]

Back to the original question, I would expect a pre fab option is the cheapest.  

Not always, I found that as soon as you deviate from their "standard" the cost to customise to what you want quickly adds up! In my last house I built my own 6m x 9m shed/ garage and with me doing 90% of the construction probably was no more expensive but I got what I wanted, I designed it to blend in/ match the house as best you can with a shed. It was timber frame with a timber truss roof, much easier to insulate/ line that than a conventional portal frame shed.

From what I have seen/ know I would most likely never go the conventional pre-fab shed, occupational hazard....... always build from scratch with a good designer/ someone who knows stuff and you will get exactly what you want.

 

[DJM]

Not always, I found that as soon as you deviate from their "standard" the cost to customise to what you want quickly adds up! 

certainly worth pricing up prefab frames and trusses to compare.  I assumed shed guys would have to be cheaper otherwise they’d never sell a shed?  But I take your point they might gouge you on non standard stuff

 If you keep it to a simple truss roof then Engineering is easy.  Companies like AAA and Timbertruss and many others can quote supply and delivery of prefab walls and trusses plus any beams and other bits you need over openings etc.  Simple build if you can find a chippie to stand them up, wrap and clad it.

[ANF]

certainly worth pricing up prefab frames and trusses to compare.  I assumed shed guys would have to be cheaper otherwise they’d never sell a shed?  But I take your point they might gouge you on non standard stuff

 If you keep it to a simple truss roof then Engineering is easy.  Companies like AAA and Timbertruss and many others can quote supply and delivery of prefab walls and trusses plus any beams and other bits you need over openings etc.  Simple build if you can find a chippie to stand them up, wrap and clad it.

A lot of people out there do not know that there are alternatives to the conventional pre-fab shed route, or cannot be bothered to sort it all out. not saying that it will always be cheaper, but should most certainly will be better.

You can still go pre-fab of sorts as @DJM suggested with pre-built walls and a trussed roof, speeds it up and is cheaper, plus you still get a custom build.

 

In answer to your question Mr Chops, I would be seeking out a good building designer/ architect who can advise and ultimately design you a shed/ garage that you want

[Fraz]

These guys did my shed extension. Shed is now 6X12 with another small store room out the back. 

https://www.aussiemade.com.au/

They did all the permits, I was going to build it myself but they only changed $1200 so I had them do it. Took a day to assemble and mated perfectly into the existing shed. In hindsight I should had made it higher for a hoist. 

The shed is the cheap part, we had to excavate to get the levels right, concrete is stupid expensive, I had to run a new higher capacity cable In for all the lights and high demand tools like my mig welder and air compressor. Then the drainage which involved digging up the whole back yard and fitting a water tank. 

One of the best things of have done is install a wood heater and insulated the ceiling, TV is pretty good too. A/C split system is next.

 

 

 

[JND72]

I built a 12m x 12m Ranbuild shed a few years ago, with a 3.6m wall height. I looked at all suppliers for a long period, did plenty of tyre kicking and Ranbuild had a great quality product, and were also very competitive on price. They also did the whole project, with council approvals (Brisbane), concrete and erection. I'd certainly use them again, but given the final product does depend on the guys who stand it up and sheet it, I would ask for some references to check.

I insulated the roof and western wall with an air cell product, and have 2 transparent roof panels. This lets in plenty of light, and given it's in Brisbane I think any more would just let in more heat.  I left off whirly birds as they seem to let more crap in, than they let hot air out. Given I have 2 x 4.8m wide roller doors across the front, I find I can open it on the hottest of days and it can be bearable inside. 

I catch water off the shed roof to poly water tanks, which also capture water from the house. 3 x 25kL tanks hold plenty of water to get through the dry spells here, and have a pump and a tap at the back of the shed. 

I was also a bit paranoid about curing the concrete, and given it was poured just before Christmas I set up 4 soaker hoses across the whole slab and ran a timer such that it never dried out. Did this for 3 weeks and had the biggest water bill ever......

To keep the concrete in a presentable condition and also to make cleaning the floor easy (i.e.. oil spills), I coated the surface before I moved anything into it with a clear sealer. Applied 2 coats of something that has been great. It was an economical alternative to the epoxy products and has kept the dust down, and made it easy to keep clean. Oil just wipes off, but petrol will begin to dissolve it.  I also had a section of the slab thickened to 200mm with 2 sheets of reinforcing, and upped the MPa of the concrete for the whole slab to have a 2 post hoist. I've recently had this delivered, but since it's been a few years the bloody shed is so full of stuff I need to have a clean up so I can make the space to do the job! Despite this shed being bigger than our first house, it doesn't seem big enough any more! Also means my wife never throws out any of our kids stuff, it just gets sent to the shed for storage into eternity. 

I liked the american barn style, but found they all needed lots of internal columns, which reduced the free space and floor space options. The single pitch roof I settled on (which was also higher than typical), certainly makes it look more presentable and keeps the whole area free. If you were after mezzanine, I'd probably go a bit higher on the wall height, but also accept it would need columns. 

I'd be interested to hear on the latest solar + battery options too. Whilst we have solar on the main house, it's too far to the shed. I've got plenty of roof area for panels, and it could be cheaper to do solar + batteries versus getting power trenched up. I want to be able to run 3phase equipment, which might make it impractical. Also, I would be happy to hear of decent lighting options.

Whatever you think will be big enough, won't be.  

Oh, I also had a vermin proof barrier used along the bottom of the panels, where they overlap the slab. Just an extruded plastic thing, but highly recommended - this is where a lot of the dust and general bugs (snakes!) get in, and you can never keep them clean. You can't retrofit it, so best include at the start. 

 

[Pork Chops]

^ awesome.  How would you feel about posting a picture of your set up?  If you can't post images let me know and I'll drop you a PM with my email address and can view it privately or post it here with your permission.  Anyone else care to share their set ups?

@TP-993 suggested this type of hoist which is space efficient and looks fantastic but clearly needs to be considered when pouring the slab.  Hmmmm.  In slab heating sounds nice!  Perhaps for the habitable section only.  I imagine that will draw some current...

[OZ930]

The best vermon proofing I have seen was the builders put the shed up first then poured the slab inside.....but try getting someone to do this now.  Alternative is use a concrete "slurry" (not too runny) and pour into the gaps.  Takes time but worth it.

[Raven]

I don,t refer to mine as a shed,,,Man Cave or Serenity ..........one side display room other side work shop with two post hoist ,,,,,at rear of property ..

 

[Mike D'Silva]

I don,t refer to mine as a shed,,,Man Cave or Serenity ..........one side display room other side work shop with two post hoist ,,,,,at rear of property ..

 

 

 

omg.. this is the best!

[Raven]

omg.. this is the best!