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There's been quite a lot of pixels spilt about electric cars and Teslas in particular.   I recently had the change to ride passenger in a Model 3 performance so wanted to share my experience as I would guess a lot of people haven't yet done so.  I decided to start a new thread as a lot of other discussion was off-topic on something else.

First, the car looks great.  It was a bit polarizing when it first came out, but seeing one in front of you and really looking at it makes a difference.  This one was a performance model, which rolls on 20inch real looking wheels, not those poxy looking 'aero' wheel covers.  Inside the no-dash thing works really well.  It's very non-fussy and makes overly styled and curved and vented interiors look old hat.  The size and layout of the touch screen thing makes it great as a passenger to see what is going on.  Having maps functionality that is more google maps than LCD-in-dash does make a difference.  Then you get to things like modifying the airflow from the vents (which are hidden yet work really well) and it, well, feels a whole level above touch-button climate control.   From the front seat the front dips away not unlike a 911 - neither have an engine in front of you, after all.  The little pods over the headlights have a torpedo-tube-esque vibe about them.  I think most car enthusiasts appreciate a car that bucks the trend and goes it's own way - saab or citroen or whatever.  This thing definitely goes it's own way.  He joked about the 'mobile phone get car out of carpark feature' but that sort of thing is actually useful sometimes.

OK then the performance.  I've been in some fast cars, and this thing was stupendously fast - a completely linear acceleration with no pause for changes or sense it's about to redline.  You get that 'my feet are lifting off the floor' feeling.  The performance model does something like 3.3 seconds 1-100 - it certainly felt like that though we were doing standing freeway entrances and rolling out at 80 or 90mph.  There's no wheelspin or theatrics, just speed piling on.  By the numbers the performance model accelerates harder than a 997 turbo - all in a comfortable 5 seater with a big interior.  It's pretty amazing.

Talking with the owner, he doesn't care much for eco-life, he's more a 'hey that's nice I'll buy that'.  He traded out of a 340i.  A colleague let him drive a model 3 and he bought one the next weekend, but threw in extra for the performance model.   He didn't know about what sort of range he was getting, just plugged it in every night and it charged itself from 12 - 4am, and has some sort of deal with the electric company for off peak use. Had never got close to running out, but admittedly had not tried to do a long road trip - never does road trips.   He said he hasn't noticed any difference in the electricity bills, probably because he also runs air con, pool, etc etc.   He said one of the biggest benefits was never having to stop and refuel which was a time and hassle saver.  I definitely get that.

My verdict?  I'd buy one tomorrow if I could justify the spend, and I didn't even get to drive.  If you need a daily driver for commuting and kids to school and day trips it fits the bill perfectly. The thought of the impossibility of it leaking oil on the garage floor is enough to drive irrational purchasing like that :D  Going from a BMW guaranteed to crack a cooling tank, melt it's chocolate gaskets and leak oil and shudder from the 'lifetime fill' auto to an electric seems enticing.  Though I'm sure they will get 'battery error take to dealer' faults over time and the thought of truly reliable transport is a pipedream.

I'm really looking forward to hearing about the Taycan and seeing how it performs in comparison.  I do wonder how much companies like Porsche are willing to make a clean break with previous convention and produce something unique, or will it be a Panamera with an engine swap.  Porsche was built on unconventional thinking and I hope they take the chance to break with the recent 'rebadged VAG platform' output.

I know there are electric car haters and doubters out there.  I try and arrive at the new cars like this from a 'hey, I'm a car guy and is this fun?' rather than 'i hate big oil and want cars to go away' place.  There's lots of tesla fanboys out there who are all about the 'emissions' and 'carbon footprint' which I find a giant crock as driving vintage porsches is the truly eco-friendly route (keep the thing already made running).  The idea of tax dollars subsidising rich people to buy them is a terrible idea, but here we are.  I think all the greens-eco-save the world flag waving is actually getting in-between car people and electric technology.  It's impossible to test drive the things, but if you know someone, ask them for a ride. 

 

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I read an article about the 3, when transiting Sydney on Saturday.  What stood out in this article was that Tesla had coined the term “frunk”...really?

Other bits were 250 mile range and 22 minutes charge time to 80%. Thinking about this, after driving for around 200 miles, in a conventional car, you would feel like a stop, refuel and something to eat.  There’s your 20 minutes to enable an 80% recharge giving another 200 miles (maximum).  Add in the family “I wanna go to the toilet” stops (with a chance for a quick charge) and the electric car actually sounds feasible, except if you want to tow something, but I haven’t read any articles on towing or whether you can fit a tow bar to these cars.  Of course the range will drop, but it does on conventional cars too.

I suspect “your gunna need a smaller boat” may be the catch cry.

All will be revealed in the fullness of time

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Tesla - The bitcoin of cars......  (quote stolen from another Forum)

Only lease one, never buy. These cars will be a modern day DeLorean pretty soon. Like the  DeLorean they rely on political subsidies to sell, every sweet subsidy could all be reversed tomorrow.

They are unprofitable for the maker & Musk is his own worst enemy.

 

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Ok here's my opinion as someone who has both a Porsche (1980 911 SC) and a Tesla (Model X100D). Obviously two vastly different cars so I wont bother comparing them. My daily is a Toyota Kluger and the wife drives the Tesla but I drive it often enough to have an informed opinion of it. Firstly the wife loves it. So "happy wife happy life" box is ticked. Previous two cars for her were Volvo XC90's (yes in case you hadn't guessed we have a big family). Superfically its a very "fancy" car with plenty of bling and a definite wow factor. Kids cringe when they get dropped off at school gates and the falcon wing doors go up but then they moan when they get in my boring Kluger becuase they cant stream their music and play with the big screen etc. So the kids prefer the Tesla (we got the six seat model so even with all of us in the car everyone has their own seat which is pretty cool and saves the infernal "bags not middle" argument) despite being a little embarrassed at school drop off. As far as the practical day to day work of hauling a family, driving to and from work and school and into and out of the city weekly it is fantastic. We plug it in at night when we remember (every two to three days) and have only once gone close to the battery going flat. We don't go on road trips with it so not sure what the range anxiety would be if say we had a beach house two hours away but to be honest it just takes a bit of forward planning to make sure you charge it up the night before and it wouldn't be a problem. As for the driving experience its weird to explain -  "same same but different" comes to mind. It took no time at all to get used to it - it's just ever so slightly different in so many ways. The sound (lack of) is weird, but again you get used to it. The acceleration is mind boggling - off the lights it will not get beaten. But the handling and general driving experience is very similar to any other car in my opinion. Point, turn the wheel, drive, stop, start, etc etc. Is it better to drive than my Kluger - absolutely but it bloody well should be as it cost over twice as much. One thing that is a bit different is the regenerative braking - it's quite noticeable. My wife doesn't like it, so she has it turned to normal. I've got used to it so keep it on when I'm driving. Basically when you take your foot off the accelerator the car slows down quite markedly. Enough for inertia to kick in which made my wife feel a little sick in stop start traffic. No drama, just press a button to disable and it works like any other car. When I drive I hardly have to use the brake pedal around town - mainly right at the end of approaching a red light to make sure the car comes to a complete stop. It's weird, but you get used to it. The cruise control thing with "autonomous" driving is kind of cool but I don't like it. I found myself more fatigued worrying about if it was going to keep control of the car or not so I just use normal cruise control while I control the steering. @Coastr  is right about it being great for around town duties which is what we use it for and because of this range anxiety is no issue at all. Will Tesla still be around in 5 years time? Dunno. But electric cars will be and there will be more and more of them. Will I still have my 1980 SC? You bet, and I'll still love driving it every week like I do now. Like the girl in the El Paso Taco ad says "why can't we have both?"   

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There is plenty of oil in an EV to leak out and I doubt Elon has worked out how to keep it contained. Land Rover anyone! Not to mention the vast amounts of liquid coolant in an EV so there is still lots of stuff to cover the garage floor. 

Given the number and problems with putting out Tesla fires and this is not cars that have had accidents it would be wise to keep them in a fire proof or detached garage. 

I could not handle the predictable repetitive (read boring) life of the same thing day in day out required to operate an EV. I could do and often have done just decided to do a road trip to say Albury (6 hours) and no EV can even get close to that. 

And in the end this is EV reality in Australia.

 

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 Great write up @Big Easy

I'm sure they'd win any traffic light grand prix against any car currently on the market, which the pro EV people always seem to quote when defending how good they are, yet as you state above, you can't just head off for a trip away unless they invent an extension lead that you can chuck in the boot and plug into any household socket to charge it up. Not aimed at you, yet these car testers and pro EV drivers quoting torque outputs, 0-100 and/or 1/4 mile times is all a bit of a wank really, as how often are you going to do that in the real world of daily driving? 

 I'm not against EV's at all, as they have their purpose for mundane daily trips to work, school drop off, run to the shops etc, and I'd love to drive one, yet like you, it seems people that own them now also have fossil fuelled cars for other 'normal' driving purposes, so is there any real benefit of ownership apart from the fuel saving?

 What I find a little perplexing is the cost to buy a new Tesla and its resale/trade in future value. When you consider entry prices are probably around $60k and up (I just Googled that) compared to a pre owned, immaculate low km Kluger like we just bought for under $30k, they don't make any financial sense whatsoever to people like us who can't afford to buy a car that is definitely going to depreciate to a level that they basically become recycled Coke cans, not to mention the stigma attached to their reliability and cost of repairs. I might be wrong (probably), yet I can't see a pre owned Tesla being high on anyones list to consider if they're wanting to spend $30-40k to buy a car when the battery life is now diminished, so to me that doesn't bode well for those who have bought them new unless they can afford/don't care about the depreciation. I baulked at buying the Kluger a month ago, as in all honesty we really dont need more outgoings when things are tough financially already, yet her indoors needed a reliable big SUV for her job as a support worker/mentor for the intellectually disabled, so we bit the bullet and bought one. As mentioned elsewhere, 'dont buy a Tesla, lease it and hand it back' is what I would do, yet they're still not proven enough for people like me to be confident enough in the company and its future. What happens to all the cars and warranties if Tesla did shut up shop? Big business usually says "You'll be fine, you'll be covered..." and even though they are legally obligated to do any repairs under warranty, it can and probably will turn to shit pretty quickly, and people are left with an expensive flat battery in their garage

 Again, they have their purpose, and I don't begrudge anyone who buys them for whatever reason, yet I'd never buy one unless they were half the price and the infrastructure was there for charging purposes wherever you need to go

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"warranty, it can and probably will turn to shit pretty quickly, and people are left with an expensive flat battery in their garage" (Lee's perfect comment above)

If you look at the giveaway price of a Toyota Prius with a fooked battery - I reckon this will be Tesla's future too for the 2nd &/or 3rd owner. Tesla's computer wont let you retrofit 2nd hand or recycled parts into the car.

 

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Tesla is in a really bad way. They're losing money on every model 3 they make, and to make matters worse, the model 3 has killed their model S sales (that they actually made money on). I don't know what the future of the company is, but you'd have to think they're going to have to increase the price of the model 3.

They had the Taycan at Goodwood and I got to see it up close. I've got to say they ruined it. The mission E was stunning. I don't know how many people saw it in the flesh but it was a really good looking car. Someone high up at Porsche has asked for more headroom in the back and spoiled it IMO ala the first Panamera.

Back home our grid can't cope with mass EV uptake. We don't have the generation capacity (even with coal), and we don't have the lines and substations to support it either. We either need to start building nuclear today, or become the world leader in solar farms and battery farms per capita, whilst simultaneously upgrading the grid. Solar and Battery probably makes more sense, but either way retail prices will probably double in real terms.

A cheaper option might be to 'pink batts' every home a battery and panels, and then give the grid operators control over all of them so they can load manage the grid. I'm pretty sure Sonnen already does this in Germany.

Then you've got the problem of falling fuel excise: https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BriefingBook45p/FundingRoads

Electric cars in Australia face a series of challenges, not the least of which is range anxiety.

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, sleazius said:

Then you've got the problem of falling fuel excise: https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BriefingBook45p/FundingRoads

Electric cars in Australia face a series of challenges, not the least of which is range anxiety.

 

 

 

Easy fixed, "fuel" excise on electric coming soon..... (it is happening in the US) 🙄

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9 hours ago, LeeM said:

 Great write up @Big Easy

 

 What I find a little perplexing is the cost to buy a new Tesla and its resale/trade in future value.

 Again, they have their purpose, and I don't begrudge anyone who buys them for whatever reason, yet I'd never buy one unless they were half the price and the infrastructure was there for charging purposes wherever you need to go

Tesla is in real trouble with the trade war and GFC just around the corner - Again.

Glad I invested in Gold to pay for the fossil fuel !

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As a Tesla owner we were fully aware of all the risks highlighted by you all when we purchased. While I clearly want Tesla to be successful and the last thing I want is for our car to become a glorified paper weight, we were prepared to take a risk and be an early adopter. One thing that concerns me more overall for the industry and how it can be sustainable is the problem of charging. We have a garage with a Tesla charger (and a big solar system on the roof and a battery pack for storage) so we're covered totally to charge the car at home. We've never used one of the "super charge stations" like the one in Richmond. But having a garage to charge your car up is a luxury and its a big ask to go to a charging station and wait an hour or so while it charges up for you. Compare that with taking ten minutes to go to the servo and fill up with petrol. In my opinion the range anxiety argument isn't as big a deal for Tesla etc as access to fast efficient charging. There's plenty of people who don't have a garage or car port - especially in Europe and Asia. On this a friend of mine who is a builder was working on a 125 unit development - each unit coming with a car space. They asked the owners if they'd like provisions put in for a charging station in their car space - not one person took up the offer. So even people who had the chance to future proof didn't take up the chance. Interesting times ahead!  

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12 hours ago, LeeM said:

 Great write up @Big Easy

I'm sure they'd win any traffic light grand prix against any car currently on the market, which the pro EV people always seem to quote when defending how good they are, yet as you state above, you can't just head off for a trip away unless they invent an extension lead that you can chuck in the boot and plug into any household socket to charge it up. Not aimed at you, yet these car testers and pro EV drivers quoting torque outputs, 0-100 and/or 1/4 mile times is all a bit of a wank really, as how often are you going to do that in the real world of daily driving? 

 I'm not against EV's at all, as they have their purpose for mundane daily trips to work, school drop off, run to the shops etc, and I'd love to drive one, yet like you, it seems people that own them now also have fossil fuelled cars for other 'normal' driving purposes, so is there any real benefit of ownership apart from the fuel saving?

 What I find a little perplexing is the cost to buy a new Tesla and its resale/trade in future value. When you consider entry prices are probably around $60k and up (I just Googled that) compared to a pre owned, immaculate low km Kluger like we just bought for under $30k, they don't make any financial sense whatsoever to people like us who can't afford to buy a car that is definitely going to depreciate to a level that they basically become recycled Coke cans, not to mention the stigma attached to their reliability and cost of repairs. I might be wrong (probably), yet I can't see a pre owned Tesla being high on anyones list to consider if they're wanting to spend $30-40k to buy a car when the battery life is now diminished, so to me that doesn't bode well for those who have bought them new unless they can afford/don't care about the depreciation. I baulked at buying the Kluger a month ago, as in all honesty we really dont need more outgoings when things are tough financially already, yet her indoors needed a reliable big SUV for her job as a support worker/mentor for the intellectually disabled, so we bit the bullet and bought one. As mentioned elsewhere, 'dont buy a Tesla, lease it and hand it back' is what I would do, yet they're still not proven enough for people like me to be confident enough in the company and its future. What happens to all the cars and warranties if Tesla did shut up shop? Big business usually says "You'll be fine, you'll be covered..." and even though they are legally obligated to do any repairs under warranty, it can and probably will turn to shit pretty quickly, and people are left with an expensive flat battery in their garage

 Again, they have their purpose, and I don't begrudge anyone who buys them for whatever reason, yet I'd never buy one unless they were half the price and the infrastructure was there for charging purposes wherever you need to go

I think a couple of points in there - winning traffic light grand prixs and 1/4 mile times etc are a big deal for lots of people.  Anyone who bought a HSV and isn't addicted to the V8 rumble and burnouts is in the frame for a Tesla S or 3.  

I think where you ask - what's the point of having it and a petrol powered car.  The mood in Australia seems to be 'if I don't want to be an eco-warrior, why would I care' - which is why I started the discussion in the first place.  There is a greens-voter stigma to the cars that would be better all round if it didn't exist.  Not sure if Tesla is making strides towards that or not, or whether Porsche will be able to climb that hill.  A bit like trying to sell Volvos after all the 'volvo driver' jokes that developed.

I also think you're making 'new car vs old car' arguments, which is why I have never had a new car and can't imagine a scenario where I ever would.   The drop in value for battery cars is around the same at the moment as it is for any premium car.   In the US there are Tesla Model S cars getting around with 250,000ks on them, selling for about 40-50% of the value of a new one.   Anyone with a top end BMW (eg 5 series with top engine) or Mercedes would be delighted with that result.  That will no doubt recede as more and more used ones become available.  But it doesn't seem like the batteries are dead and gone at 250k.  Getting 250k out of a benz or bmw is possible but you're going to pay in maintenance.  I think it's probably about line-ball on that one - I wouldn't say Tesla is any better or worse in the long term.

I would definitely like one electric and one petrol car.   Running around for electrics with low running costs, instant-on (no warmup) makes total sense as a town car.  There is also the no-local-emissions aspect to it - like it or not petrol cars still put out hydrocarbons and are noisy.  Ok, well only Porsches are allowed to be noisy and pump out hydrocarbons.  But you don't drive them nearly as much as you do the daily driver.  And there's no need for a noisy stinky corolla if an electric corolla would do the job.  Keep a petrol car with some decent power for longer drives, either for fun or need.  OR to tow something heavy or disappear into the bush.  

Early adopters are wearing some risk - I doubt the company will fail and disappear, they are far too well established for that.  More likely is being bought out by a big company and keeping the brand and the know-how.  Here's a car company making the hottest-selling cars in some markets and a loyal fan base, one which is pulling new buyers into the market.  I would put a Tesla buyer in a safer spot than some other car companies (cough Jaguar cough)

 

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Using actual Dyno tests of wheel power a Tesla P100D in Ludicrous mode has about 180KW/T which is good but nothing spectacular and bettered by many ICE cars. Electric motors with max torque at 0 rpm are great at getting you moving but once a certain rpm is reached the torque drops off and heads for 0 as revs increase further. If you think a Tesla especially the lower grade ones will beat a 991 Turbo S to 100 then think again and when it comes to 100-200 or 200-300 where real Supercars shine the Tesla is not looking as good. Don't get me wrong they are still a quick car in a straight line but there are many ICE that are quicker. The problem is with 0-100 the best cars are grip limited so doing it any faster than now is not an option without further improvements to current road tyres. 

Teslas have oil in the gearbox's which I am sure would benefit from warming up to operating temperature. There is also thermal shock with the power electronics which can shorten the operating life every time it happens. EV also put out hydrocarbons in the form of tyre wear with the big torque and big weight making them worse than an ICE in this regard. Also brake dust especially if the regen is turned off as that extra weight is hard on tyres, roads and brakes. 

Come to think of it EV should pay additional road tax to cover the cost of the damage they do. Then an infrastructure levy to cover the upgrade to our power supply and distribution system.

Why should my house (or business) power prices go up to cover the cost of expanding the generation and distribution infrastructure to supply power for transportation. We are all going to pay including the poor to transfer transport energy from fossil (directly burnt) to Electric (burning fossil somewhere else). 

Seems like a stupid and costly idea to me so some rich people can move their emissions to someone else's backyard. 

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i wouldn't mind a nissan leaf. look ok, about 23k landed, perfect for my daily commute. apparently they can be used like a tesla powerwall if you plug them into your house solar system or similar.

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17 minutes ago, clutch-monkey said:

i wouldn't mind a nissan leaf. look ok, about 23k landed, perfect for my daily commute. apparently they can be used like a tesla powerwall if you plug them into your house solar system or similar.

Getting weird here for you to be saying that stuff man of spanners.😆😂

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10 hours ago, GC9911 said:

Getting weird here for you to be saying that stuff man of spanners.😆😂

my daily commute is short enough to be downright damaging for the 911, and i resent spinning spanners on a mere daily.

i've long considered an EV as a daily duty appliance. the EV west conversion kits have been on my radar a while, something like a slammed old beetle would be fun with ev power

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Most balanced conversation I've seen around the topic.  Not a 'you can take my ICE car off me when you prise it out of my cold dead hand' comment to be seen.  And Lee's here too!

Man has been making stuff fun and fast for as long as they've been around.  My take on EVs is it's just another way, a different flavour if you will, to rip up the tarmac and giggle away.

Beyond that, forget Tesla, every major manufacturer is going to have one the same very soon.  Tesla go belly up there will be plenty other to choose from who's products will no doubt benefit from some of the forward thinking that Tesla has done.

As for performance yes there will be ICE cars that are faster but FFS EVs are bloody fast.  Even the basic ones.  Seems like a silly argument to mount.  To me anyhow.

Yes they may have gearbox oil but overall they will be massively mechanically simplified compared to an ICE car.

As for urban applications, they seem entirely appropriate to me.  Why not shift emissions to where people aren't?  I guess just be honest that's what we're doing.  Unless of course we harness solar power in which case it's absolutely a winner.

The lack of garages etc is an issue tho, as is charging infrastructure available to all.

Bring them on.  What's to be afraid of?  You want to shit your pants over technology go read up about AI and the robot soldiers that will seek and destroy you, your family, your community, until nothing living is left.

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 You must watch The Terminator too much Nick 😁 And yes, glad to be here to provide my unbiased opinion 😉

 S'pose in the end, you buy what makes you happy, and if you are contributing to saving the planet in your eyes, good onya 👍

 We can all hear everyone's opinion, yet we don't have to listen

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3 hours ago, LeeM said:

 

 and if you are contributing to saving the planet in your eyes, good onya 👍

 

Thanks for the laugh 😂. Don't let reality get in the way as feelings are way more important👹

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We've been looking into the Tesla battery systems, and others, for some big remote location electrification projects we have pending .  The downside of this battery chemistry is that in higher ambient temperature situations, like here for example, by the time the batteries reach full charge, they're on the verge of thermal runaway, even with their cooling systems.  This is for vehicle and non-vehicle systems.  Course the end result of that is potentially catastrophic.   Tho, their non-auto EV system packaging is pretty awesome.  Not groundbreaking. Just well thought out.

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21 minutes ago, Redracn said:

Thanks for the laugh 😂. Don't let reality get in the way as feelings are way more important👹

 No worries. I'm always here to offer an unbiased opinion 😁

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4 hours ago, LeeM said:

 You must watch The Terminator too much Nick 😁 And yes, glad to be here to provide my unbiased opinion 😉

 S'pose in the end, you buy what makes you happy, and if you are contributing to saving the planet in your eyes, good onya 👍

 We can all hear everyone's opinion, yet we don't have to listen

I'll troll ya.  So what is your opinion across the various aspects of EVs?  And supporting rationale?

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29 minutes ago, Pork Chops said:

I'll troll ya.  So what is your opinion across the various aspects of EVs?  And supporting rationale?

  I don't know enough about them to make a judgement, only what I've read and been told, yet to me they have their place in society for those who wish to buy them, of which I have no opposition to. As I've mentioned before elsewhere, I'd buy/lease an EV van to use everyday if they were the same or similar price to a Toyota Hiace I currently own and drive, as it would save me thousands of dollars in fuel costs (if I remembered to charge it up when I frequently forget to do to my cordless tool batteries), yet they don't yet, so I have no other need or want for an EV. Secondly, I don't really trust the technology 100% as yet, but I'm sure they will become a more viable option to the masses when the technology and battery life improves (which it seems to be doing pretty quickly), and the purchase prices come down to a level where people like me can afford to buy one. $60k to me is a shitload of cash to drop on a car, any car, that is going to depreciate rapidly, not to mention the current well documented battery life which will be an expensive fix if they shit themselves.

 If I didnt need my van for work, I'd probably be buying a some sort of hybrid car, as that way you have the best of both worlds instead of relying solely on a pure EV vehicle. Or I'd just buy a Harley Vrod for the daily commute 😁

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