2024 911 back to NA?

[nine11]

Lots of talk on the interweb claiming the demise of the turbo engine for the next Carrera (back to NA), any "truth" or am I being scammed?

[JWM]

I saw this video in my YouTube recommendations the other night too. Never heard of this channel so I didn’t put much stock in it … but it sure is interesting … They went as far as to suggest it would be a “detuned 4.0 from the GT3” …

 

[MFX]

I haven't watched the video, but if they go back to NA, I think it would be as a hybrid, so it just has electricity doing the torque fill, instead of boost?

[flamingporsche]

10 hours ago, MFX said:

I haven't watched the video, but if they go back to NA, I think it would be as a hybrid, so it just has electricity doing the torque fill, instead of boost?

This makes sense, but would you 'need' hybrid if it was detuned GT3 engine?  Plus the weight of the hybrid hardware would make it a non-starter overall weight-wise.  They'd have to go to some light-weight engine config to offset the extra hybrid system weight.  Sticking hybrid onto a GT3-engined car would be pretty impressive - but then as a mid-cycle update again seems pretty bold, and therefore unlikely?

[luzzo]

1 hour ago, flamingporsche said:

Sticking hybrid onto a GT3-engined car would be pretty impressive - but then as a mid-cycle update again seems pretty bold, and therefore unlikely?

Porsche changed all Carrera engines from traditional Naturally Aspirated to Turbo in Mid-cycle 991.1 to 991.2. 

[flamingporsche]

3 hours ago, luzzo said:

Porsche changed all Carrera engines from traditional Naturally Aspirated to Turbo in Mid-cycle 991.1 to 991.2. 

Touche!

I still think a hybridised GT3 engine in a Carerra is unlikely.  Where's all the battery storage going to be put?  The electrical architecture and the structure of the car will be fundamentally different to accomodate this - substantially more than in mid-season update compared to bolting a turbo onto a scaled down version of the same engine (3.8 down to 3.0).  The turbo architecture already existed in 991.1 so other than a "new" engine, it's pretty much same as before.

[WGA]

Sounds like a 3.0l turbo to me. However, if they do throw in an NA engine, it will be the 4.0L Boxster/Cayman GTS version. Not the GT3.

 

   

 

 

[Carrera28]

24 minutes ago, flamingporsche said:

Touche!

I still think a hybridised GT3 engine in a Carerra is unlikely.  Where's all the battery storage going to be put?  The electrical architecture and the structure of the car will be fundamentally different to accomodate this - substantially more than in mid-season update compared to bolting a turbo onto a scaled down version of the same engine (3.8 down to 3.0).  The turbo architecture already existed in 991.1 so other than a "new" engine, it's pretty much same as before.

The 992 was designed with the potential for Hybrid.  The eight-speed dual-clutch automatic gearbox of the 992 can incorporate a disc-shaped electric motor in its rear section, while the gearset in the renewed PDK is shorter than in the old boxes, it can also handle the massive torque from an electrically assisted powertrain.  The 992 hybrid would not be be a plug in hybrid but rather a 'boost assist' one and as such could get away with a smaller battery.  The four-wheel-drive system of the Carrera 4r has been upgraded to deliver as much as 50 percent of the power to the front wheels, and that the new brake booster, taking after the one in the 918 Spyder, is now fully electric instead of electromechanical, allowing for better energy recovery. 

At launch then-chief engineer August Achleitner said of the 992:

“If you take the [eight-speed PDK] gearbox out of the car and have a look at it, you see there is so much space,” Achleitner said. “This empty space is able to integrate an electric motor later, so we are able to make a hybrid version out of the 911.”

It isn't just the transmission that needs to change, you also need to find room for all those batteries.

Klaus Zellmer, Porsche North American President and CEO addressed this issue at launch of the 992:

"We have space for that, You lose some of trunk space, either in the front or where the two-plus-two seat concept might suffer a bit. But that's all possible. If we need to do that, then we can make it happen.

The car is prepared technically to accommodate an electric machine, if needed. Obviously, at the moment, it would add weight, but there might be a situation that some cities actually close down for a combustion engine, and that's why we'd much rather now create all the pre-requisites to fit into the gearbox, a hybrid module, and then to make it happen if we need to." 

Now this is by no means a guarantee it will happen but from a technical point of view the 992 was designed to allow hybridisation.

[edgy]

I might be in the small minority here, but I am somewhat fascinated by the concept of a Hybrid 911... with the caveat being around the implementation of Hybrid system, if it is by large a performance adaptation (i.e. 997 GT3 R Hybrid) then I think it will be a stellar machine... if it is however just another virtuous car on the market, no bueno for me! 

I do think that its an interesting point that they've considered no ICE for cities, that is the reality many are faced with, and frankly clean air in cities is perhaps the only logical argument I've heard for EV. 

 

 

[MFX]

I think the hybrid angle is more to keep regulators happy that they are moving in the right direction so that they can still (at least for now) keep the GT3 NA as god intended.

[JWM]

If you could do it in a way that it’s not heavy and complicated (big if today) … I could see a hybrid N/A car being a sweet spot one day. N/A noise and linearity supported by a bit of electric shove?

[LeeM]

 I reckon a hybrid sportscar is a great idea. 

 Porsche used a Le Mans cup car (or whatever it was) as the test bed for the 919 hybrid. I remember there was a big flux capacitor or battery type contraption sitting next to the driver. Can't find any info or images of it, sorry.

 An EV outright sportscar is just a gimmick if you ask me

[Redracn]

My 2 cents. The GT3 NA engine is simply too expensive to make and tailpipe emissions too high for volume production. If the 992.2 Carrera  goes hybrid it will initially be with a NA version of the current 3L. The turbo was to meet EU emission laws which are only getting stricter going forward to the point NA and possibly even small turbo engines simply will not meet the regulations. So the only question is how big will the hybrid part  be and how small will the engine be. As the regulations continue to get stricter the engine will get smaller and the hybrid bigger in order to meet them with the final solution a FULL on EV. 

[cafe_racer]

I think a hybrid track car would be great, there is a lot of acceleration and hard braking to charge the batteries back up in increase torque out of corners.

 

Fully electric though, no idea how you would charge it fast enough at a track.

[MFX]

6 minutes ago, cafe_racer said:

Fully electric though, no idea how you would charge it fast enough at a track.

I think the policies all over the world will pull back on the "everything needs to be fully electric by 2035". That statement makes great headlines for the politicians today, and someone else can retract it down the line. The cracks in the full electric theory are starting to come in hard and fast, that EV production is a lot less clean, the public charging network is never going to be good enough to handle things like holiday traffic and that full EV's just won't work for every situation.

[LeeM]

36 minutes ago, MFX said:

I think the policies all over the world will pull back on the "everything needs to be fully electric by 2035". That statement makes great headlines for the politicians today, and someone else can retract it down the line. The cracks in the full electric theory are starting to come in hard and fast, that EV production is a lot less clean, the public charging network is never going to be good enough to handle things like holiday traffic and that full EV's just won't work for every situation.

 I saw 4 cars lined up at the only public charger near me. I did laugh though, as they'll be waiting a loooooong time.

 See that bloke in the States doing a big road trip in his Tesla? Parked up at a public charger, and it took something like 10 hours or more to get 12% charge, and it was $25/hour or something crazy like that. Pretty sure he's regretting that idea for a road trip 😅

 You're right, these politicians will just fob it off after saying how beneficial ev's are and will be. Just like they did when they pushed everyone to buy diesel powered cars. Were they not told diesel is more carcinogenic than ULP? Obviously not...muppets 😅

[nine11]

On 01/02/2023 at 17:42, LeeM said:

 I reckon a hybrid sportscar is a great idea. 

 Porsche used a Le Mans cup car (or whatever it was) as the test bed for the 919 hybrid. I remember there was a big flux capacitor or battery type contraption sitting next to the driver. Can't find any info or images of it, sorry.

 An EV outright sportscar is just a gimmick if you ask me

Flux capacitor, isn't that from the DMC DeLorean?  Happy to get one of them to bolt on my Brock Polarizer

[LeeM]

1 hour ago, nine11 said:

Flux capacitor, isn't that from the DMC DeLorean?  Happy to get one of them to bolt on my Brock Polarizer

 Steady on mate. That's some hyperdrive, warp speed shit going on there by mixing both devices! 

[DJM]

On 01/02/2023 at 21:25, MFX said:

I think the policies all over the world will pull back on the "everything needs to be fully electric by 2035". That statement makes great headlines for the politicians today, and someone else can retract it down the line. The cracks in the full electric theory are starting to come in hard and fast, that EV production is a lot less clean, the public charging network is never going to be good enough to handle things like holiday traffic and that full EV's just won't work for every situation.

On a drive home from a holiday recently, there was an accident on Princes Hwy in Gippsland and the cops closed the road and diverted traffic around through Loy Yang, between the big belching power generators and the massive coal pit.  There was a tesla a few cars ahead and I couldn’t help but chuckle at the irony….
 

On 31/01/2023 at 21:17, MFX said:

I haven't watched the video, but if they go back to NA, I think it would be as a hybrid, so it just has electricity doing the torque fill, instead of boost?

I reckon that’s the answer.  The 992 3TT engine is a ripper, relaxed fast & quiet or angry fast & noisy.  Not the theatre of a GT3 of course but very fast but versatile.  I’ve been driving my 992 constantly for 3w while my daily is getting fixed.  Not sure I’d be this happy in a GT car.
I can absolutely see Porsche wanting to maintain that character, replicating the turbo torque with electric torque with the added benefit of short distance EV only driving to duck in and out of major cities.  I suspect there’s also a theoretical emissions benefit too to help them achieve compliance across their fleet.

[nine11]

Yeah DJM, when I get uppity drivers of "zero CO2" cars try to shame me or brag about how they're saving the planet, I stump them with my standard response:  "Ahh, so do you charge it by wind or solar?".  Response usually starts with something about "emissions" however yet to meet anyone that doesn't charge theirs via coal.

Back to my original question though, I'm really interested if anyone has any inside information as to the 2023 Carrera ditching the turbos and returning to pure NA (not hybrid)?  I gather the change from 3.4/3.8NA to 3.0FI was in most part "forced" upon Porsche (and others) in response to the pollies legislating stricter emission regs and the whole need to reduce the average emissions across their entire vehicle range?  Maybe with more Taycan's sold each year, Porsche will have more flexibility in keeping NA engines available for the 911's?

[sleazius]

4 hours ago, nine11 said:

 Maybe with more Taycan's sold each year, Porsche will have more flexibility in keeping NA engines available for the 911's?

It'll actually be harder for them this year, up until now every electric car sold counted twice toward their mandated fleet emission target. From this year they only count once.

It is probably the entire reason that the 718 replacement is going pure electric.

[tomo]

The 911 994 will also be an electric hybrid as the gossip goes .

[LeeM]

 Here's the cup car from 2011 I mentioned previously 

https://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/15/porsche-911-gt3-r-hybrid-2-0-first-drive-review/

[nine11]

Thanks everyone for input.  BTW, I should have titled this post "2024" not 2023" I suppose, my mistake

[JWM]

Seems like it’s happening … at least in the GTS.

On 31/01/2023 at 21:17, MFX said:

I haven't watched the video, but if they go back to NA, I think it would be as a hybrid, so it just has electricity doing the torque fill, instead of boost?

”The reports has it on good authority the GTS will adopt the NA configuration with a mild-hybrid setup.”

So you were right @MFX.

Good way to differentiate the models. A N/A Carerra T would be pretty cool …