Dreamr Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 Just now, bear924 said: Always difficult to know how to navigate. How much deposit would you have used to lock in the Carrera discussed above? $5k .... That's enough to show you are serious and not enough to lose everything if it goes pear shaped .... symsy, bear924 and Bluegus73 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegus73 Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 1 minute ago, bear924 said: Always difficult to know how to navigate. How much deposit would you have used to lock in the Carrera discussed above? Was going to ask him what he required to put it on hold to enable me to organise PPI and fly up to see it. Didn’t even get to that point. As per the discussions with you .... it is a little tricky when you run your own business and can’t exactly drop everything g to go look at a Porsche ..... as much as I’d like to!! ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamr Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 1 minute ago, Bluegus73 said: Was going to ask him what he required to put it on hold to enable me to organise PPI and fly up to see it. Didn’t even get to that point. As per the discussions with you .... it is a little tricky when you run your own business and can’t exactly drop everything g to go look at a Porsche ..... as much as I’d like to!! ?? I wouldnt have even felt the need to look at it .... I know you tried with that red one so I'm only using it as an example ..... It had enough providence and good "gut feelings" for me to have bought it and have it shipped without seeing it .... You wouldn't have had to leave your computer to have bought that one ... Computer tab 1 ..... banking account. Computer tab 2 .... car delivery company Computer tab 3 .... insurance company Computer tab 4 ... PFA... boasting about your new car. Easy peasy! micknine01, JonoF and bear924 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear924 Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 5 minutes ago, Bluegus73 said: Probably .... why did you have to go and mention your car on PFA ??? ?????? It really was car sales that sold my car, as once listed I had quite a number of enquires. My view is that if a car is priced right, and it's advertised it will sell within a month (think mine was listed for about 10 days). Think you either need to be willing to pay a higher price, be willing to negotiate a higher priced car down (with the various dead ends that this will ultimately lead to) or be ready to make a decision quickly. There are certainly many buyers out there looking for well priced 911s so any sitting on car sales are probably aiming too high or require a niche purchaser. 9 minutes ago, Bluegus73 said: Was going to ask him what he required to put it on hold to enable me to organise PPI and fly up to see it. Didn’t even get to that point. As per the discussions with you .... it is a little tricky when you run your own business and can’t exactly drop everything g to go look at a Porsche ..... as much as I’d like to!! ?? I have a similar issue with living outside the capital cities. Suspect you'll need to either accept more risk or spend more on the car. It is a tough balance though and one that I'll probably vent about when I start seriously Porsche shopping again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamr Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 13 minutes ago, James P said: Ahh yes the good old days, did it many times... oh & never had a ppi done on any car i purchased If I had of done a PPI on the car I bought from you, you would have had to pay me ..... 18 minutes ago, Bluegus73 said: Probably .... why did you have to go and mention your car on PFA ??? ?????? That car of @bear924 is another one that should have just been bought and shipped .... There was no need for a PPI and there were enough members on here that vouched for it .... and you wouldn' have needed to take any time off work. Gotta take the leap of faith sometimes ... as long as it's a calculated leap, then no worries .... JonoF, bear924 and SteveF 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboT Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 just came across this on photobucket - bought a few cars in 2015...but not this one Bluegus73 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegus73 Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 30 minutes ago, Dreamr said: I wouldnt have even felt the need to look at it .... Just to put some perspective on this ... would you be saying the same thing if this was you first PCar? It may be this way for those of you that already have a PCar ... but for those of us looking for the first one and have heard more than a few horror stories ... a little cautiousness isn’t that unreasonable. Its not like I was asking him to hold it without a deposit. 26 minutes ago, Dreamr said: That car of @bear924 is another one that should have just been bought and shipped .... There was no need for a PPI and there were enough members on here that vouched for it .... and you wouldn' have needed to take any time off work. Gotta take the leap of faith sometimes ... as long as it's a calculated leap, then no worries .... The annoying thing with @bear924 car was that he approached me first ...and I thanked him for this ...... but I’d just put a deposit on another car that I thought I was buying ..... that ended up being a dud. By the time it was then listed on Carsales .... I didn’t have the time .Yep .... should have jumped. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Given the same circumstances and information at the time .... I would have acted exactly the same way .... because .... hindsight can’t be foreseen. I don’t particularly like Guards Red anyway .... so cliche ??? . But it did appear to be a good car ..... either that or next week it needs $15k spent on it for an engine rebuild. ...... Popcorn bear924, Dreamr and scashin 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James P Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 26 minutes ago, Dreamr said: If I had of done a PPI on the car I bought from you, you would have had to pay me ..... Be thankful i even sold it to you ill happily refund you if you send it back.. hell ill even pay the transport cost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamr Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 11 minutes ago, Bluegus73 said: Just to put some perspective on this ... would you be saying the same thing if this was you first PCar? It may be this way for those of you that already have a PCar ... but for those of us looking for the first one and have heard more than a few horror stories ... a little cautiousness isn’t that unreasonable. Its not like I was asking him to hold it without a deposit. You make a good point and I'm certainly not criticising you for not doing it that way .... I guess what I want you and the other buyers looking for one is to know that it's not unusual to do it this way and there was a time not so long ago where almost every 911 sold was bought this way .... first P car or 5th P car..... It comes down to making an informed decision .... if it was in a car yard on Parramatta road, PPI would be a must ... a car from a Porsche enthusiast with enough risk removed is not a real risk ... Just for the record .... my first 911 was bought sight unseen winning an auction on eBay.... now that's a risk!!! My 924T was bought from a member on here sight unseen and after talking to him over the phone, was completely comfortable having it shipped without seeing it ... 7 minutes ago, James P said: Be thankful i even sold it to you ill happily refund you if you send it back.. hell ill even pay the transport cost What a generous offer ... you'll be happy to know .... I did think about it for all of 30 seconds and ...... yeah, nahhhh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidtran Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 Bluegus73 raises a question for me. If the same car had 180,000kms. What would everyone consider a fair price? When I was looking I paid for 2 PPI's on cars that had over 200,000kms. Compression test results came back with cylinders having around 150-165. When I did a PPI on the car I purchased all cylinders were 170 from memory and one was 5 under at 165. 5 minutes ago, Dreamr said: You make a good point and I'm certainly not criticising you for not doing it that way .... I guess what I want you and the other buyers looking for one is to know that it's not unusual to do it this way and there was a time not so long ago where almost every 911 sold was bought this way .... first P car or 5th P car..... It comes down to making an informed decision .... if it was in a car yard on Parramatta road, PPI would be a must ... a car from a Porsche enthusiast with enough risk removed is not a real risk ... Just for the record .... my first 911 was bought sight unseen winning an auction on eBay.... now that's a risk!!! My 924T was bought from a member on here sight unseen and after talking to him over the phone, was completely comfortable having it shipped without seeing it ... What a generous offer ... you'll be happy to know .... I did think about it for all of 30 seconds and ...... yeah, nahhhh. How much did you pay for you first 911 Dreamer? I had never purchased a car with a PPI until the 911. When you're looking at spending almost $100k on a 911 I think it's warranted. I had an RZ-S supra, FD RX7 and a lancer Evolution IX. The most expensive of which was $45k. I couldn't justify the cost at $45k, but at close to $100k I definitely wanted the piece of mind. I guess it comes down to how deep your pockets are too.. Bluegus73 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegus73 Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 12 minutes ago, Dreamr said: It comes down to making an informed decision .... if it was in a car yard on Parramatta road, PPI would be a must ... a car from a Porsche enthusiast with enough risk removed is not a real risk ... A car that is currently still for sale .... and in Melbourne so I could go and look at it .... sounded over the phone like a genuinely nice car, clean and a good buy. Having then driven it though, I found no power at all, then found oil leaks a plenty and told that if I wanted a PPI done that they’d just sell to someone else . So in that example ... the verbal assurances from an “enthusiast” meant nothing. And I’m glad I DIDNT buy it over the phone. And I have a feeling that is why it’s still for sale. Obviously a different example .... but an example to me of what could happen without some due diligence. All good .... patience is a virtue ..... either that or it will just cost me more $$$$ ?? Dreamr and scashin 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveF Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 24 minutes ago, Bluegus73 said: Just to put some perspective on this ... would you be saying the same thing if this was you first PCar? It may be this way for those of you that already have a PCar ... but for those of us looking for the first one and have heard more than a few horror stories ... a little cautiousness isn’t that unreasonable. Its not like I was asking him to hold it without a deposit. Bluegus, I hear you. I remember years ago when I was bitten by the bug and was searching for my first Porsche. I was very cautious and rightly so. As a result I probably missed out on a few cars but thats how it goes. Over time I gained knowledge on the cars through this forum, talking to people, reading lots, drove quite a few to get a feel for what a good and bad one is and did a few PPIs. With what I know now I would take more of a risk, albeit an informed one as Dreamr has said above. Searching for the cars can be stressful but is half the fun. The feedback you get from the crew here I am sure will help you on your journey. We all want you to buy a good car....and soon Peter M, Dreamr and Bluegus73 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidtran Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 The right car will come. Just be patient. Some sellers try to take advantage of the fact that they have had a few phone calls and then start calling the shots. Happend to me as well. One was clearly talking through is a$$. As soon as I called he gave me a spiel about how today was unusual for him as he had already got 5 calls on the car and one guy wanting to place a deposit during the week. Mind you it had been up for sale for 2 or 3 months at that point. I discussed the car asked about the price and was honest with him, telling him its not worth what he is asking to me. He then proceeded to tell me that if it doesn't sell by the end of the week he will probably put the price up because these cars are investments. 2 months on and a 17k price drop. I learnt that "enthusiast" doesn't mean much when selling a car. Bluegus73 and scashin 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear924 Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 9 minutes ago, davidtran said: Bluegus73 raises a question for me. If the same car had 180,000kms. What would everyone consider a fair price? When I was looking I paid for 2 PPI's on cars that had over 200,000kms. Compression test results came back with cylinders having around 150-165. When I did a PPI on the car I purchased all cylinders were 170 from memory and one was 5 under at 165. My understanding is that the compression check is predominately looking for equal compression across each cylinder .. more than the absolute number (Even though there is also a 'normal' range there). Before rebuilding my 924 engine, the compression was within range, however once I had the engine stripped I found a severely bent conrod. My SC had good compression and everything checked out in the PPI, however 10k km later I had to do an engine rebuild due to broken head studs. PPI are good to do, however certainly don't reduce all risk. In many ways, just having someone who looks at Porsche all day, everyday is probably worth the cost of a PPI.. however I do believe you get a sense of what a good car looks like if you look at enough on car sales etc. Once again, far from perfect, however possibly enough to warrant dialing up the risk a tad. I would also be very cautious about paying any attention to kilometres unless the car had a very good service history. I would focus heavily on condition and documented work on the car. Buying a 'troubled' car is ok .. as long as that is factored into the price. 2 minutes ago, davidtran said: 2 months on and a 17k price drop. I learnt that "enthusiast" doesn't mean much when selling a car. I would define enthusiast as someone who is known within the Porsche community. Not all Porsche owners are enthusiasts and some are just idiots. When selling my car I wanted to be as open as possible because there is a good chance that whoever I sold it to would be (or become) part of the Porsche community. Negotiating the price of anything is never much fun, however if it's obvious that either party isn't looking for a win-win outcome, it's probably best to walk away. Bluegus73 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidtran Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 1 minute ago, bear924 said: My understanding is that the compression check is predominately looking for equal compression across each cylinder .. more than the absolute number (Even though there is also a 'normal' range there). Before rebuilding my 924 engine, the compression was within range, however once I had the engine stripped I found a severely bent conrod. My SC had good compression and everything checked out in the PPI, however 10k km later I had to do an engine rebuild due to broken head studs. PPI are good to do, however certainly don't reduce all risk. In many ways, just having someone who looks at Porsche all day, everyday is probably worth the cost of a PPI.. however I do believe you get a sense of what a good car looks like if you look at enough on car sales etc. Once again, far from perfect, however possibly enough to warrant dialing up the risk a tad. I would also be very cautious about paying any attention to kilometres unless the car had a very good service history. I would focus heavily on condition and documented work on the car. Buying a 'troubled' car is ok .. as long as that is factored into the price. Kms do mean alot if the car has been maintained you are definitely right. I wanted a car with complete books that were up to date and under 180,000kms to minimise the risk of a rebuild, but even then nothing is guaranteed. bear924 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavn Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 It gets easier with time & driving/looking (I remember boring a guy so much on my first look & silly questions he threw me the keys at me in disgust, said he was getting ready to go out & could I leave the keys & folder on the verandah when I left...he drove off 10 min later & left me there). Nicest thing that ever happened to me was an owner virtually telling me to come over, have a chat and drive his car (he wasn't selling at that point but might have been in a few months). "Drive it & ask me whatever you want - here's the keys". It's only by driving and talking/looking that you get some sense of what's out there....and for most people on here it was likely months/years before they got fairly comfortable with it all. One thing that jumped out at me over the last few pages was the notion that a 'good' 911, worth lets say 90k could have part of its value in the engine (or gearbox/driveline) and that if you suddenly have to drop 20 or 30 in it for repairs that you'd want 110 back out or feel like you've lost value. I think you're better off looking at those types of costs as once off expenditures that you withdraw in smiles each time you drive it....over the following 10 years or more. So if you hit that sort of hurdle/bill....better keep it to get your value! The 90k 911, that gets the engine rebuilt is not now worth 110, nor will it ever be. It might be worth more than 90 but that depends how much extra someone is willing to pay for the peace of mind (assuming it was done by a reputable shop and that you sell it right away). If the body on a 30+ yr old car is good and it's got a good service record (or one owner, known pfa owner etc) with the money spent when required then it's a calculated gamble. That's all it will ever be - roll the dice & while there are steps & checks to minimise the risk, it will always be there. That's part of the fun. Unless the engine & box have been done in the last thousand or so kms....it could go tomorrow or in 20 yrs time...who knows....so why sweat it. If you don't have the spare budget for this type of repair (I didn't when I purchased my first) then accept that if you're unlucky it will be garaged for a year or so while you get the money & parts together....then take your lumps & enjoy the next 10 - 20 years of worry free driving (you now have an excuse to keep it for a long time). So, either pay big & buy mint with fresh rebuild and original paint or perfect resto....or buy a shitter that you know will need money & pay little (but probably more in the end)...or choose your point along the continuum, where each point is pretty much equal risk for those big repairs. Then drive the car & forget about value & investment - in the end it's just for fun. Like most thoughts on the forum, mine are worth far less than actually getting out there and driving, looking as much as you can (C & C, club days etc). Good luck with the searching! SteveF, Entice, bear924 and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rminc Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 So many replies. So much reading. Quite a few people have said to judge by condition and not by kilometres. That being said if you have two good cars. One with 200,000kms and one with 150,000kms how much more do you pay for the one with less kms?? I saw two good cars with approx 180-210kms. Both drove well, but with what I've read, that's top end rebuild territory and a PPI won't necessarily show you that... My question in all this is would be how much more cash do you justify on a lower km car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavn Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 I personally wouldn't care at all about kms. The only exception is a truly 'collectible investment grade' car that you will not be driving, ever, and that's not what you're looking for. 120000, 150000, 180000....they're all old and will need work, if they haven't had it done. They might need it next year or in ten but that time frame will likely be more dependent on how much money and work has already been done rather than how many kms it's done. To directly answer your question, I wouldn't pay more for the 150000km one, unless they were both identical (which would rarely happen) in ever other respect. I would then probably take the 200000km one...why pay a km premium and then flush it away by driving it? They're not 3 or 5 yr old cars so I'd say km's has little impact. That red one - a 3.2 with one owner & full history at 89 asking......if you're in the market for this type of car and you're not immediately going to look at that example, with funds ready......then you're not really in the market for this type of car. No links to seller but at that price it's hard to go wrong for a straight clean car....just realised 1985.....last year before unleaded....pretty sure CTS were asking well north of 100 for this type of thing not so far back....kind of wish I needed a g series... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear924 Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 I was reading something about 'investment' grade cars recently. The article basically said that a car is only an investment if it's worth more than $1M. If any less than that the holding costs consume any capital gain. I plan on avoiding any low km, perfect condition cars for my next purchase otherwise I'll be too worried about driving the silly thing. Patina is really just another word for "cars already covered in stone chips ... a few more won't worry anyone". Now after saying that, I know that I consider how desirable the P car I'm purchasing will be in the future. Not so much from an investment point of view, more from a 'Need buyers to sell' point of view when the time comes to try something different. The 924 on the other hand is a labour of love. My recent engine rebuild is worth more than the car, however at least that meant I could do it myself and not be worried that it wasn't a documented engine rebuild (which was one of the reasons I decided on using a specialist to rebuild my 911 engine). When I decided to rebuild I decided to keep the car forever (so hopefully I did a good job on the engine!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalai Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 Make sure the km's on the cars Odometer are verified against service records. There are two cars currently for sale that I know have had their Odometers replaced with neither mentioning this in the sales ad.. Troubleshooter and bear924 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 31 minutes ago, bear924 said: I was reading something about 'investment' grade cars recently. The article basically said that a car is only an investment if it's worth more than $1M. If any less than that the holding costs consume any capital gain Can't agree. My 964 sold for 25% uplift after 4 months, my GT2 70% uplift after 2 years. In both cases, net off costs and I'm way ahead, even after a new engine for the GT2. There are PLENTY of cars sub $1M that have seen stupid growth(964C2, 996&7 GT3, 996 GT2, 991R etc) that would outweigh holding costs several times over Mike D'Silva and Troubleshooter 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilH Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 Like some others on the Forum, I purchased my 4 X 3.2 Carreras without getting PPI's. Not sure whether that was brave or stupid, however back then they were $40,000 to $50,000 cars, not $100,000 cars so only half the risk ?. Since then, I have had 2 PPI's done on 996's and probably should not have. As it was explained to me, a reputable shop has to compare the car to a new car to give the prospective purchaser the full picture. It is then up to the purchaser to decide if the long list of minor defects, paint chips, and scrapes under the bumpers detract from the car. Seriously, on a 30 to 40 year old car, I am with a few others....unless you are buying a garage queen that will never get driven, you need to take a bit of a risk, because a PPI will not eliminate the chance of an engine or gearbox issue in the next 12 months or 5 years. Cost of ownership of a classic car of any type will always include "unexpected" costs. Having said that, has anyone had a look at the Red 1978 SC in Melbourne listed on Carsales for $69,500https://www.carsales.com.au/dealer/details/Porsche-911-1978/OAG-AD-15630823/ Peter M and Mike D'Silva 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalai Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 6 minutes ago, PhilH said: Having said that, has anyone had a look at the Red 1978 SC in Melbourne listed on Carsales for $69,500??? That was @zelrik911 car then for a short time owned by another PFA member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 19 hours ago, hugh said: Sorry but 88k is pretty much "chump change" for one of these cars. If you are scared of throwing 10-20k at a 30+ yo classic car in potential mech etc. then I'd suggest you reassess your expectations of entering the classic Porsche market. PPI isn't a get out of jail card by any means. Fascinates me that plenty of people Will pay $200k for an AMG CLASGLEML 63 and drop $30k driving out of the showroom and another $20k per annum. But when you but a Porsche for $90k its a disaster if soon after it owes you $100k. Personally I’d be stoked to pay $90k enjoy for a while maybe drop $20k in bits and shits and sell for $80k. What price do you put on fun. The whole rising market has skewed expectation to the point of ridiculous. In general cars are a shit investment, if you can’t afford to drop 10-20% invest in property ? i lucked it and with no clue what I was doing I made money on both Porsche’s until now but that wasn’t why I got into it. Then I bought a GT4 which again was not an investment decision - pleasingly it seems to be holding up value wise but if I drop a bit when time comes to sell it was worth it, awesome fun. Can’t think of a better way to burn some $$ (I don’t do cocaine ?) bear924, hugh, SS 3 and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknine01 Posted 21February, 2018 Report Share Posted 21February, 2018 Guys, "what's for sale & interesting" ANF, hugh, Scott930 and 2 others 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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