Porsche m97 3.8 rebuild

[mc968cs]

Yep.  I was hunting a good 996 gt3 cup as my next toy.  Intent was restore and make it mint, apply launch car graphics and go nuts using it on track.  Looked at 5 cars, and was keen till found out what metzger engine rebuilds now run at…..so back to the drawing board.  It doesn’t stack up anymore for me - engine rebuild cost was the turning point.  
Anyway, good luck with your rebuild. 
 

[LeeM]

 That's just mental.

 If my air cooled needed a rebuild, there's no way in a fit I could afford it. Even if I could, I couldn't justify paying that amount of money to a shop with exorbitant hourly rates. 

[911CJT]

2 minutes ago, mc968cs said:

Yep.  I was hunting a good 996 gt3 cup as my next toy.  Intent was restore and make it mint, apply launch car graphics and go nuts using it on track.  Looked at 5 cars, and was keen till found out what metzger engine rebuilds now run at…..so back to the drawing board.  It doesn’t stack up anymore for me and engine rebuild cost was the turning point.  
Anyway, good luck with your rebuild. 
 

That’s amazing looking - gives me ptsd though of not buying a gt3 when they were 60 grand and unwanted a few years ago. 
 

ah well we all know Porsches aren’t a poor persons play thing but I can definitely see a few cars getting parted out until the after market or alternates come in. Or our dollar comes back up to historical levels. 
 

will keep the thread updated as I get them. 

2 minutes ago, LeeM said:

 That's just mental.

 If my air cooled needed a rebuild, I'd just disconnect a fuel line and claim the insurance money, as there's no way in a fit I could afford it. Even if I could, I couldn't justify paying that amount of money to a shop with exorbitant hourly rates. 

Haha I hope for your sake your car never has issues or either sort (insurance company might dig this one up) haha 

 

it’s all good - I’m fortunate I can ‘afford’ it and I don’t plan on selling so it’s just a sunk cost that will amortise the longer I own the car. 

[LeeM]

2 minutes ago, 911CJT said:

That’s amazing looking - gives me ptsd though of not buying a gt3 when they were 60 grand and unwanted a few years ago. 
 

ah well we all know Porsches aren’t a poor persons play thing but I can definitely see a few cars getting parted out until the after market or alternates come in. Or our dollar comes back up to historical levels. 
 

will keep the thread updated as I get them. 

Haha I hope for your sake your car never has issues or either sort (insurance company might dig this one up) haha 

 

it’s all good - I’m fortunate I can ‘afford’ it and I don’t plan on selling so it’s just a sunk cost that will amortise the longer I own the car. 

 Yeah, I'll delete that 😅

 I'm definitley not in the financial realms of 'normal' Porsche ownership 😅

[Mike D'Silva]

On 22/01/2023 at 12:51, LeeM said:

 That's just mental.

 If my air cooled needed a rebuild, there's no way in a fit I could afford it. Even if I could, I couldn't justify paying that amount of money to a shop with exorbitant hourly rates. 

Lee, after sending you so many "specialised"  instagram posts, if you ended up sending your aircooled motor to a shop for a rebuild, I would cry!

[LeeM]

6 hours ago, Mike D'Silva said:

Lee, after sending you so many "specialised"  instagram posts, if you ended up sending your aircooled motor to a shop for a rebuild, I would cry!

Mate, with our mutual admiration for those 'specialised' posts, I can assure you I wouldn't be sending my engine anywhere else! 😁👍

[Buchanan Automotive]

On 22/01/2023 at 13:51, LeeM said:

 That's just mental.

 If my air cooled needed a rebuild, there's no way in a fit I could afford it. Even if I could, I couldn't justify paying that amount of money to a shop with exorbitant hourly rates. 

Just curious as what you would consider exorbitant hourly rates?

Regards

Sean

[LeeM]

2 hours ago, Buchanan Automotive said:

Just curious as what you would consider exorbitant hourly rates?

Regards

Sean

What Porsche shops are charging 😅

 With respect. In all seriousness and if you want me to be specific and trying not to sound like an asshole, $185-$250/h. Yes they (you) are marque specialists, yet if I was to quote the same hourly rates for my expertise and years of experience in the building trade to do the work correctly and to building code, as opposed to an "I can do that" DIYer, I'd never get any work.

 Is a Porsche shop' hourly rate negotiable? Not that I'm aware of. What if I was $185-250/h, would people just pay that? Of course not, they'd shop around for a better deal, yet people still whinge about having to pay $60-$80/h for their home repairs/additions and try to knock me down a bit, so I just walk off.

 I've now switched to a day rate whether I'm there an hour or 8 hours to save any negotiation, and I'm straight up with that before we work out the nitty gritty of the time it will take and the cost of materials (which I don't add any percentage on top of but all mechanics do). That's why I'm getting work.

 I understand the shops all have wages and all the other overheads to factor into their charges, yet what Porsche shops are charging compared to Joe Bloggs mechanical repairs, I just think it's exorbitant.

 

[911CJT]

8 minutes ago, LeeM said:

What Porsche shops are charging 😅

 With respect. In all seriousness and if you want me to be specific and trying not to sound like an asshole, $185-$250/h. Yes they (you) are marque specialists, yet if I was to quote the same hourly rates for my expertise and years of experience in the building trade to do the work correctly and to building code, as opposed to an "I can do that" DIYer, I'd never get any work.

 Is a Porsche shop' hourly rate negotiable? Not that I'm aware of. What if I was $185-250/h, would people just pay that? Of course not, they'd shop around for a better deal, yet people still whinge about having to pay $60-$80/h for their home repairs/additions and try to knock me down a bit, so I just walk off.

 I've now switched to a day rate whether I'm there an hour or 8 hours to save any negotiation, and I'm straight up with that before we work out the nitty gritty of the time it will take and the cost of materials (which I don't add any percentage on top of but all mechanics do). That's why I'm getting work.

 I understand the shops all have wages and all the other overheads to factor into their charges, yet what Porsche shops are charging compared to Joe Bloggs mechanical repairs, I just think it's exorbitant.

 

Workshop rate for autohaus I've been quoted is $200 per hour but I am sure that GST will be on top of that. 

I have a broken down quote of nearly $58,000 to complete the work. I ended up getting a lot of parts sent from Pelican as I could source them far cheaper (like 30-35%) than Autohaus suppliers could. The cars been there since first week of Jan and at this stage I have no ETA on completion but I would be surprised it isnt another month or so. I am still hopeful of getting the work done for close to $50k by supplying some parts, and their quote being a worst case scenario. 

Lucky I can afford it and I enjoy the car I guess - otherwise I would be really conflicted on if it is remotely worth it. 

I can see a number of 996 and 997's becoming economic write-offs if the engine / trans fail and the rebuild costs keep ballooning. 

[Mike D'Silva]

Interestingly, I've had two people reach out to me this week asking if I rebuild the water-cooled motors that suffer bore scoring. (no I don't fyi)

[mc968cs]

On 22/01/2023 at 13:48, mc968cs said:

Yep.  I was hunting a good 996 gt3 cup as my next toy.  Intent was restore and make it mint, apply launch car graphics and go nuts using it on track.  Looked at 5 cars, and was keen till found out what metzger engine rebuilds now run at…..so back to the drawing board.  It doesn’t stack up anymore for me - engine rebuild cost was the turning point.  
Anyway, good luck with your rebuild. 
 

That eye water engine rebuild cost is exactly what struck me as not worth it - hence this post from earlier this year.  
Having rebuilt (paid for) multiple 997 gt3 engines either stock or hot rod myself, the prices have just gone so high now.  
From my journey they (996 997 gt3) used to be $32k, then $40k for a proper refresh and rebuild, incl parts. That can now be a good $80k for a full gt3 engine refresh w pistons etc . The thing is it’s the prices of Porsche gt3 engine parts that’s gone nuts apparently, not just labour.  It led me to conclude tracking a 996 997 gt3 ….ain’t worth it anymore. I empathise re your build costs  

[LeeM]

 @911CJT

Mate, $50k would mean my car would develop a mysterious spontaneous combustion episode (probably fuel related), as that's outta my league.

 I'm not at all against anyone making money, and I totally understand shops of all sorts need to cover their overheads etc, yet how much is too much to be justifiable to the customer? I'm sure their employees are paid award or just above, so they can't be doing it tough when their booked solid for weeks on end.

 About 10 or 11 years ago I had quote to rebuild my 912 engine by one local shop ($20k) and AH in Sydney was a bit more plus freight to and from. Fortunately I tried another Porsche shop here in Adelaide (Buik Motorworks with the previous owner) and Craig there took pity on my poverty and helped out a lot, BUT, I couldn't buy the parts, as they would've been unable to warranty them, so I'd be checking on that before you proceed.  Nowadays I'd hate to even get a quote locally, as I know a coupla guys who have spent similar to your quote or more, so someone is making some good money! 

 Re my last post, due to a so called 'mate' ripping me off a few grand very recently, I'm now solo in the building game doing all sorts of tasks (except tiling and painting...they suck and I'm crap at it), yet again, if I charged what a Porsche shop does, I wouldn't get any work. A wise man once told me "Make a little on a lot and you'll be right", and I've lived by that for years. 

 

[Harsh]

3 hours ago, Mike D'Silva said:

Interestingly, I've had two people reach out to me this week asking if I rebuild the water-cooled motors that suffer bore scoring. (no I don't fyi)

probably the $53k 997 0n CS

[911CJT]

Yeh the parts are all fine - they checked them and I had to get genuine parts or they wouldn’t warranty it. The main cost is parts really. Lifter kits for inlet and exhaust 6k locally. 4K for mahle pistons etc. Its nuts how exy it is. 
 

My engine is getting pretty much everything rebuilt or replaced, including cooling and oil systems plus pistons, bearings, head reconditioning block recon, full balance, upgraded IMS etc . I’m also putting in new pulleys and engine mounts etc so it’s literally a new motor effectively - but that doesn’t change it’s a shit engine design so far from bullet proof. 

[mc968cs]

Yeah. They ain’t Toyota costs (or lotus) when something goes wrong hey.
fun toys but exxy.

My point is the bulk of the bill is parts not the labour. Good luck with it. 

[911CJT]

22 minutes ago, mc968cs said:

Yeah. They ain’t Toyota costs (or lotus) when something goes wrong hey.
fun toys but exxy.

My point is the bulk of the bill is parts not the labour. Good luck with it. 

Sorry was replying to two responses at once - yeh the labour ironically is the one area I may save a little one from AH. I have no idea who is making the crazy parts mark up but the parts aren’t sophisticated or much different to so many other motors but they’re a lotttt more expensive. 
 

what will you get now if it isn’t a gt3? I am seriously considering getting a cheap track focused car to have fun with as the Porsche is getting too exy to take near a track. 

[hugh]

You’ll get several years of Motorsport out of a well built Porsche engine with basic maintenance. Not many other manufacturers come close in terms of reliability in a track/competition setting. Yes, it’s a high entry price but there is value long term not to mention the cars if well looked after are still worth good $$$. 
 

For example, I have mates running Evo’s & WRX’s, engine builds are 1/3 the cost but need to be done in a 1/4 of the time I’ll get out of my 911 (plus they tend to be temperamental!!!) 

[LeeM]

57 minutes ago, hugh said:

 

For example, I have mates running Evo’s & WRX’s, engine builds are 1/3 the cost but need to be done in a 1/4 of the time I’ll get out of my 911 (plus they tend to be temperamental!!!) 

 True, as I've done a fair amount of investigation with the WRX engines, and although they're 'cheap' to build to make them quick, yet depending on which engine you have, they can be a hand grenade with the pin half hanging out. 

 I'm playing in the wrong game with owning a Porsche, but it is the price to pay when it's what you've dreamt of owning for 40 years

[hugh]

8 hours ago, LeeM said:

 True, as I've done a fair amount of investigation with the WRX engines, and although they're 'cheap' to build to make them quick, yet depending on which engine you have, they can be a hand grenade with the pin half hanging out. 

 I'm playing in the wrong game with owning a Porsche, but it is the price to pay when it's what you've dreamt of owning for 40 years

I’m yet to add up what I’ve spent recently rebuilding my 77 engine but I got 6 or so years (of solid competition) out of my last engine and it was still strong - but it felt like it was time. If I can get the same out of the new one I’ll be pleased. 
 

I don’t have any liquid cooled cars in the stable but at the time when I did, I was dreading the thought of either needing a rebuild. My fetish for early Mezgers does mean that if I decide to get back into one a rebuild needs to be factored in as they are all getting on now. 
 

Like building a new home, the bills will be significant so just make sure you engage someone you can trust. It’s really not worth cutting corners as you’ll end up paying for it twice! 

[Fishcop]

Makes an LS swap sound sensible!

 

[Buchanan Automotive]

On 24/03/2023 at 15:54, LeeM said:

What Porsche shops are charging 😅

 With respect. In all seriousness and if you want me to be specific and trying not to sound like an asshole, $185-$250/h. Yes they (you) are marque specialists, yet if I was to quote the same hourly rates for my expertise and years of experience in the building trade to do the work correctly and to building code, as opposed to an "I can do that" DIYer, I'd never get any work.

 Is a Porsche shop' hourly rate negotiable? Not that I'm aware of. What if I was $185-250/h, would people just pay that? Of course not, they'd shop around for a better deal, yet people still whinge about having to pay $60-$80/h for their home repairs/additions and try to knock me down a bit, so I just walk off.

 I've now switched to a day rate whether I'm there an hour or 8 hours to save any negotiation, and I'm straight up with that before we work out the nitty gritty of the time it will take and the cost of materials (which I don't add any percentage on top of but all mechanics do). That's why I'm getting work.

 I understand the shops all have wages and all the other overheads to factor into their charges, yet what Porsche shops are charging compared to Joe Bloggs mechanical repairs, I just think it's exorbitant.

 

 

With Respect Lee

I guess lucky for us we are currently $145+gst per hour, but we are also a very small garage with myself and Bruce the only workers. before 2018 we had been $110+gst per hour for as long as I've worked here. I think it total we rent 135square meters at around 4k a month. Some months the business is in the red some months the business is in the black but we both pay our wages at well below 100k a year. We both work 6 days a week, Bruce from 1994 and myself from 2000 when I started here.

Im not defending Autohaus or any other big specialist shop but their overheads would be enormous and so would the stress to make sure those cars keep coming through the doors. Ive been up there a few times and its the size of a dealership and extremely well maintained 

Interesting enough we have a few general mechanic shops right next to us and just for example one is $155+gst per hour, one is $158inc and the other general mechanic is $135+gst. This is what you need to charge in Sydney metro to stay afloat as a business owner. 

We generally put on up to 10% on parts that we source, I have to say also we spend an incredible amount of time finding parts from all around the world. The amount of time we spend looking up part numbers, calling people overseas is just ridiculous and I feel I have the right to charge for my time finding some of this stuff. Yes we do also buy spare parts locally from Porsche, Autohaus and BWA but I would say over 70% of the parts we find through supplies and garages overseas. 

I would also say that if Porsche give you 100hrs to rebuild a GT3 engine for example and you were to take it to a general mechanic at say $150+gst per hour its most likely that they will spend more hours on it then what's quoted from Porsche. They would also have to buy the special tools needed for the job which im sure you will end up getting a charge for that's if they even say yes to doing the job. I would also say that if you were to sell that GT3 soon after rebuilding it would be far beneficial to have Autohaus or PR tech or Buiks motorworks for example as the builders rather then Joe Blogs mechanic repairs business as it shows the buyer that the engine has been built by a specialists and it can be trusted and backed by them to perform as it should

Regards

Sean

[flamingporsche]

Well said, Sean.  Mechanics are people too and often wonder about how the rates they charge affect their customers.  It's a finely balanced exercise - not too high that you have no customers, but covering overheads, insurance, training, holidays, wages, and actually getting a return on the risk you're taking.

[LeeM]

 @Buchanan Automotive 

 Thanks for the reply Sean 👍

Your hourly rate is the cheapest I have heard of in Porsche world, as even my local 'Joe Bloggs' is now $140 just to service our Kluger.

 As I've mentioned, I understand the overheads with rent etc, and I know Sydney is much worse than Adelaide, yet at the same time the rates of the bigger shops like AH are just taking the piss really. Yeah they've got the big flashy shop that's costs a fortune in rent, plus employees and they need to charge what they do to justify staying in business, but ultimately that is their choice to 'go big or don't bother'.  I'm sure they have many of the well healed who don't sniff at the final invoice to cover that, so whatever a pleb like me says doesn't mean a thing really.

 I hadn't considered small shops like yours that have to source the parts etc which takes time, as even I have just spent hours over 3 days sourcing materials and information for a big job coming up that I've not done before, yet I personally don't count that as part of the job. Maybe I should add that to the bill though! 

 I also understand the cost of living and everything going up in price which you have to add to the job, and it's no different in the building game, yet how much is too much? If I add just $10/h for 5 days work, that's $400 extra on the bill, and many people would question that and probably haggle to reduce their costs which I'd probably have to reduce my rates, yet do that to any mechanical shop, doctor, physio or even a butcher and they'd laugh at you.

 I don't begrudge anyone making money to stay alive, especially a specialist, yet to me it seems a lot of these specialists are charging their much higher rates because they know they'll get the business from those who can afford it. 

 Again, all respect to you and every other Porsche specialist for providing the service, yet some shops really need to have a think about how far they can push their clients financially when changing one set of plugs will set them back up to $1000

[911CSR]

With these hourly rates I am starting to feel I shoudl have stayed in the automotive world 

[911CJT]

Sorry forgot to update this thread as I've had the car back a little while now.

Firstly nothing against Autohaus - the guys are great and I enjoy how they welcome you into their workshop to see exactly what they are doing.

Total cost - close to $60k.

Basically short of the block being replaced - everything else was (excluding bolt on's like exhaust and alternator/airbox etc). Had new liners put in, and IMS delete upgrade at the same time. 

Engine was balanced so feels great, powerful, quite amazing.

I was able to source pistons, rings, tensioners, lifters etc so much cheaper from online stores which even they couldn't get close to matching by their supplier. They were fine with me to supply and would warranty as long as they were genuine parts. 

Happy to answer any questions.