Fire - Don't let this happen to you

[OzJustin]

Very sorry to see the bad news Robert. Good to hear you're unhurt and hopefully you'll be back in action with a replacement shortly.

[Buchanan Automotive]

With the 928S4 , the 1987 year type ( one year only ) has a very very hidden rear of engine fuel return hose ( S shaped ) & its so hidden that one would not realise its there & yes in old age ( say 25 years etc ) with 25 years heat soak from the engine they will burst 
Hence why we are all over every 1987 928S4 we come across to change this out & its cheap to do ( every 5 to 10 years ) depending on usage 

The 1988 - 1991 928S4 & 1992 - 1995 GTS has a different better design fuel return hose at the rear of engine & its only better in the sense that its more noticeably with the air cleaner off & hence one can investigate "if you can see it "

The fuel hose at the front of all 5.0L & 5.4L engines , 1986 928S to 1995 GTS is more noticeable , but in old age will go hard & may leak ( like on any car ) and the factory hose is cheap to replace 

Power steering hoses , never really had a fire issue with them since 1978 , but its possible , seen plenty of neglected ones spay a fine mist , but only seen these smoke , buy smoke is only one step away from combustion , but then again this was a long time ago & we are constantly replacing these hoses every 15 years or so , so thats probably why we no longer see any issues with this & yes there are mods to reduce the possibility even further 

911 K-Ket , old fuel hoses in engine bay , lost count how many we have undone / removed while removing the engine to do a clutch etc , only to find on closer inspection the fuel hose is crumbling / falling apart or the end connection turning within its ferrule within the hose ( fire risk and can not be left that way )

911 3.2L  ( 1984 - 1989 ) engine fuel hoses in engine bay & there are a stack of them ( most hidden out of view under & behind inlet manifold  ) ,we have been changing these engine bay fuel injection fuel hoses ( all of them) in these cars for the last ten years or so . We had one just recently that was towed in with fuel leaking everywhere from one of these very old hoses & it didn't ignite ( just luck for the owner ) & it was towed in because it would start ( no wonder )

928 K-Jet 1978 - 1983 , two very hidden & dangerous ( in old age ) fuel injection hoses on the side of the engine ( not far from exhaust manifold ) & NO outer heat insulation , been changing these for 30 years

928 Luft Hotwire injection, 1984 & 1985 , one fuel injection hose on the side of engine & like above K - Jet , its completely unprotected & have been changing these for the last 25 years , at the rear of the engine there is the return hose & these are now that old they are crumbling if not replaced already 

944  1982 - 1985  , two fuel injection fuel hoses to & from the fuel rail ( engine bay ) coming from under the brake booster area ( over top of inlet manifold ), been changing these out for at least 20 years 

944 1986 - 1990  ( single cam ) turbo & NA , two VERY dangerous looking fuel injection fuel hoses , but this time on the worst side possible , directly ABOVE the glowing exhaust manifold & yes Porsche installed external heat shielding , but boy oh boy , are these are fire time bomb & yes we have been replacing these for at least 20 years & on the turbo we change these out every 5 or so years & with new outer heat insulation because of the intense heat in this area ( its a heat stopper once you realise what the fuel hoses have to deal with )

944S2 , 968 similar to above , but not as much heat as the turbo , but replace every 10 years or so & they simply will not be an issue

Remember , petrol spraying onto ignition leads & or a hot engine has been a fire issue since WW1 , so nothing new , but with knowledge & thinking , this came be turned into a non issue on any car 

Regards

Bruce Buchanan
Buchanan Automotive

[Mike-S]

The good news is you're ok, cars can be replaced.

Quite honestly, although I have an extinguisher in the daily driver it's not for that car, it's for any other poor individual I see in difficulty, I'd let the Ranga burn. Having had a car burn in my youth back when I was rallying, there is nothing worse than a fire damaged car for even attempting to repair it afterwards. The best advice I was given by my mech mates at the time was if it's burning, let it burn properly because you *really* don't want to repair it afterwards. Mine wasn't too bad, but 2 years later it was corroding like buggery even after being stripped back bare. Plus of course the wiring loom and everything else in the engine bay / back of the dash area. It was never right afterwards.

Might be hard now, but as long as the payout is good then go out and find another.

[Carrera28]

I have a Rennline mount in my Porsche, in my Honda I have one of these:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/370992508669?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

It's adjustable and if there isn't a bracket made for your specific car this may be an option.

[ANF]

Sorry to see such a nice car gone but so much more important that you are ok!

Good luck

[Rob]

Some more excellent advice from Bruce.  I hope you Sydney PFA-ers are supporting Buchanan Automotive...

[LeeM]

 I have one standard sized extinguisher bolted to the floor in front of the driver seat, and am fitting a 2kg one to the hump inbetween the rear seats once I ditch the backrests.

 From experience, one standard one isn't enough, so at least have 2 small ones

[Robert930]

Thankfully it was one of those cheap 928's. The fire seems to have transformed your wheels mate? 

(Too soon?)

seriously though rob, when you shared the news a few weeks back it was real shocking stuff. Something none of us want to experience. For NSW people a permanent reminder is etched onto the Tarmac just as you leave the national park. Gutting

you pick up a replacement in LA?

Haha Tom, far from a cheapy, factory options were manual 5 speed (nothing like the earlier 5 speeds, just magical to drive), sports seats, sports boge suspension, 60/40 LSD all ordered a few months BEFORE Porsche released the 928 GT's, unsure many like that exist

Also regarding the US, a phone agreement on the price was either a misunderstanding by me, or a reneg by the seller, so more broken dreams there, but I'm not bitter, it was a great trip with my son....hell I even got to race a 997 Cup car !!

 

[tazzieman]

Sincere commiserations Robert.

It's a known issue with all cars with high pressure hoses. The rubber gets really hard and brittle and I believe ethanol laden fuel weakens fuel lines also. I would think the 986/996 era cars are susceptible now?

Rust around the end fittings plagues the  salty road cars and probably also cars that live near the sea.

Every few months I go around with a torch at night and inspect every line for seepage. In the fullness of time , all lines will be replaced  ; I've done the S1 944 pressure lines (the S2s are especially at risk).

In the meantime I carry 2 extinguishers and an insurance policy. One might get lucky with putting out a fire,  but chances are one won't.

I hope you can replace like with like , cheers

 

 

 

[OZ930]

  911 K-Jet , old fuel hoses in engine bay , lost count how many we have undone / removed while removing the engine to do a clutch etc , only to find on closer inspection the fuel hose is crumbling / falling apart or the end connection turning within its ferrule within the hose ( fire risk and can not be left that way )

911 3.2L  ( 1984 - 1989 ) engine fuel hoses in engine bay & there are a stack of them ( most hidden out of view under & behind inlet manifold  ) ,we have been changing these engine bay fuel injection fuel hoses ( all of them) in these cars for the last ten years or so . We had one just recently that was towed in with fuel leaking everywhere from one of these very old hoses & it didn't ignite ( just luck for the owner ) & it was towed in because it would start ( no wonder ) 

Regards

Bruce Buchanan
Buchanan Automotive

I take it that this includes the 930.  Any other hidden hoses that can cause an issue?

Is this an engine out repair/replace ?

[P-Kay]

I have a sick feeling in the stomach seeing how adorable your 928 was and what is left of it @Robert930 Speechless!

[Buchanan Automotive]

Hi OZ930  , yes absolutely , the 3.0 1975 - 1977 & the 3.3L  1978 - 1989 911 Turbo's have multiple fuel injection fuel hoses in the engine bay , over the decades we generally replace them when we remove these engines to do a clutch etc , but most can be done in car , but its not as easy to do

When you look very closely with the inter-cooler & air cleaner removed ( 3.3 L ) you will see quite a few old ( in you're case 35 + years old ) fuel injection fuel hoses to the fuel filter side of engine & behind the engine / manifold  & these all have female threaded connections & these connections are connected to the fuel hoses with steel ferrules ( ferrules are a cheap in production hose clamp ) & you will find most all all of them will turn within their ferrules , meaning the hoses has deteriorated / collapsed to a point where the hose is no longer gripping the small dia pipe within & yes these can & do leak , but worse the K-Jet fuel pressures within most of the 35 year old hoses is only a waiting ( fire ) time bomb 

Regards

BB

[Diamond911]

This thread made me go back and double check what was replaced on my S4 928 recently when it had a major $15K engine out engine refresh. Yep, shows that the power steering hose, fuel hoses + all other hoses were replaced during that major refresh only 9 months ago, which you would expect.  I still feel sick every time I look at your photo Robert and hope you can replace it with one just a nice.

[Mike737]

Thats horrible. I'm really hoping point number 3 on your list wasn't an issue for you. 

[MFX]

In regards to extinguishing the fire. Once it takes hold it is very very difficult to extinguish. Being a Firie I have been to countless car fires and once they take hold it usually takes us at least 5 to 10 minutes to get it out. Having an extinguisher is worth while, but you need to get it early. If one won't put it out, chances are that it is too far gone for any number of those small extinguishers.

[TrevMcRev]

In regards to extinguishing the fire. Once it takes hold it is very very difficult to extinguish. Being a Firie I have been to countless car fires and once they take hold it usually takes us at least 5 to 10 minutes to get it out. Having an extinguisher is worth while, but you need to get it early. If one won't put it out, chances are that it is too far gone for any number of those small extinguishers.

Plumbed in fire extinguisher not too extreme? Usually rigged up to under bonnet and in cabin in race/rally cars. Pull the trigger and dump either/both full of foam!

I have a Lifeline 2.25lt foam in the rallycar, glad to have never needed it!

@MFX what are your thoughts on foam vs powder?  I were under the impression foam was better, particularly on "hot" fires like fuel/oil onto a red hot turbo...

Maybe not such a silly idea on some rare Pcars that are becoming near-irreplaceable, regardless of insurance.

@Robert930 Mate glad you got out ok, and real sorry to hear this news.

[OZ930]

Hi OZ930  , yes absolutely , the 3.0 1975 - 1977 & the 3.3L  1978 - 1989 911 Turbo's have multiple fuel injection fuel hoses in the engine bay , over the decades we generally replace them when we remove these engines to do a clutch etc , but most can be done in car , but its not as easy to do

When you look very closely with the inter-cooler & air cleaner removed ( 3.3 L ) you will see quite a few old ( in you're case 35 + years old ) fuel injection fuel hoses to the fuel filter side of engine & behind the engine / manifold  & these all have female threaded connections & these connections are connected to the fuel hoses with steel ferrules ( ferrules are a cheap in production hose clamp ) & you will find most all all of them will turn within their ferrules , meaning the hoses has deteriorated / collapsed to a point where the hose is no longer gripping the small dia pipe within & yes these can & do leak , but worse the K-Jet fuel pressures within most of the 35 year old hoses is only a waiting ( fire ) time bomb 

Regards

BB

Feels like another project coming on.  Thanks for the information.

[MFX]

Plumbed in fire extinguisher not too extreme? Usually rigged up to under bonnet and in cabin in race/rally cars. Pull the trigger and dump either/both full of foam!

I have a Lifeline 2.25lt foam in the rallycar, glad to have never needed it!

@MFX what are your thoughts on foam vs powder?  I were under the impression foam was better, particularly on "hot" fires like fuel/oil onto a red hot turbo...

Maybe not such a silly idea on some rare Pcars that are becoming near-irreplaceable, regardless of insurance.

@Robert930 Mate glad you got out ok, and real sorry to hear this news.

Foam has some cooling effect as well as just the starvation and smothering of the powder. We use foam on vehicle fires which is more effective than water as it can create a blanket smothering the fire from air as well as cooling. 

I am thinking on a normal road car a plumbed in extinguisher would be a bit extreme, I think prevention is better than the cure as BB said, replace the hoses regularly and just be aware of it (and make sure you have an up to date insurance policy). 

[Port 911]

Man that is bad news, I had these words told to me only recently when I got my 944, replace your hoses regularly he said.

Hope you can find another, but we all know, your first love is not ezly replaced.  :-( :-( 

1/ Replace fuel and Power steering hoses periodically (even if they look ok)
2/ Carry a fire extinguisher
3/ Have your car insured for its replacement value

[D-banger]

Sorry to hear.  This is very sad, but at least you are OK.

I good wake-up call for all of us.   I'll be checking ASAP, including dates on existing extinguishers.

[tazzieman]

   I'll be checking ASAP, including dates on existing extinguishers.

Do dates mean anything if the pressure gauge is still OK? Or does the gauge block up and give false readings? I give mine a little squirt every now and again. Only ever had one where the pressure spontaneously dropped out of the green zone ; took many years - and it did sit in my boat a fair bit..

[Robert930]

Do dates mean anything if the pressure gauge is still OK? Or does the gauge block up and give false readings? I give mine a little squirt every now and again. Only ever had one where the pressure spontaneously dropped out of the green zone ; took many years - and it did sit in my boat a fair bit..

A CAMS official once told me out of date extinguishers can be dangerous as they can block mid use, apparently the contents start to solidify over years of sitting

And considering how cheap they are I wouldn't risk it 

[tazzieman]

A CAMS official once told me out of date extinguishers can be dangerous as they can block mid use, apparently the contents start to solidify over years of sitting

Inspect fire extinguishers at least once a month (more often in severe environments).
Fire extinguisher maintenance is important for everyone’s safety.

You must ensure that:

• The extinguisher is not blocked by equipment, coats or other objects that could interfere with access in an emergency.
• The pressure is at the recommended level. On extinguishers equipped with a gauge (such as that shown on the right), the needle should be in the green zone - not too high and not too low.
• The nozzle or other parts are not hindered in any way.
• The pin and tamper seal (if it has one) are intact.
• There are no dents, leaks, rust, chemical deposits and/or other signs of abuse/wear. Wipe off any corrosive chemicals, oil, gunk etc. that may have deposited on the extinguisher.

Some manufacturers recommend shaking your dry chemical extinguishers once a month to prevent the powder from settling/packing.

I can see how race cars can sit around for months at a time & stuff like FEs get neglected.

Being an active maintainer of my cars I do the checky & shaky thing ; & I do carry 2 FE's per old car!

One other thing is not to ziptie the pin as you may not be able to free it with your bare hands. A thin wire twisted once or twice is enough to secure it.

[Ozvino]

Change the extinguisher every 2 years regardless, they are $40. 

My other suggestion (Greenies cover your ears) is to discharge your old extinguisher and understand how it works. Learning how the spray pressure ranges etc. isn't something to learn while your car is burning. 

[KGB]

Can I practice on your car?  I'll bring the FE...no need to set it alight.