Next generation Porsche Macan will be full EV only.

[DJM]

On 27 February 2019 at 15:10, Philbee said:

Right on, @Simonk... this is a big Achilles heel of electric cars. They will never work long term I feel, unless they can zap a battery in 60secs from flat to full - there’s a few top gear shows highlighting this very point. 

Not to mention weight, replacement costs and the rare minerals  & manuf cost issues (where’s the greenies on this front?)

Not sure why they all keep developing this stupid technology. 

Never say never.  It'll drive a change in behaviour.  Most of us have a sub 100km commute to and from work which is well below the typical range.  Every night when you park, car charges to 100% by morning (plug in = PITA, inductive mat on the garage floor = easy).  The old paradigm of stopping at a servo to top up will become a thing of the past.  Upside, no more bags of chips on fill up 😂

maybe on the drive to Sydney you'd need a 15m stop to juice up, who cares.  By the time you've stretched the legs, had a leak and grabbed a coffee, you're ready to go again.

towing the caravan to the coast, hmmmm, don't see that working.  Better keep the diesel bus just for those occasions.

All the "waste of time", "never gunna happen" chatter reminds me me of a video I watched recently (and now can't find). In it was an early 1900s photo of New York City, everyone on horses and 1 car visible.  No one would accept giving up the horse in favour of the car.  Same photo taken 10 years later, everyone in cars, 1 horse visible.  It's happening folks, like it or not. Now the major manufacturers are heavily invested in EVs, it's only a matter of time before we all reach a point of at least contemplating an EV future.  

consider my daughter who just turned 16, L plates next week, absolutely zero interest in cars/driving (despite my best efforts I get told they don't understand what I see in cars, driving fast, track events etc).  If she can buy a car that's quiet, easy to drive, cheap to run, requires little maintenance and no smelly service stations to navigate then I will guarantee that she and her friends will all be in EVs but say 2030?  Why wouldn't they.  Meanwhile the number of us who love the sound, emotion, feel of ICE cars will slowly dwindle and die out.  VW will happily sell us a GT3 for now but their focus is on my daughter and what she wants in 10 years.

[D2000]

For a commuter car, I wouldn’t mind the idea - at least it means you can drive the car hard straight out the door as no need to get the oil up to temperature first (or at least that is my understanding of electrics)

[ANF]

1. The ranges they talk of are for normal driving, hammer it and watch it drop, especially at night time!

2. We still don't have the means to mass charge hundreds of thousands of cars! And I don't see changes being made to fix this...

Other than that, great idea 🙄

[81SC]

20 hours ago, JV911 said:

</facepalm>

Fixed it for you JV.

 

[Philbee]

@DJM... yep good points & agree young kids today like to have no petrol, agree , it stinks.

but my main point above was not so much on the range but also the weight, manufacturing processes on batteries, infrastructure  and their life span. Yes, they’ll get better but the technology is a heavy manuf. industry and a whole new infrastructure needed to support it. Batteries need replacement... there’ll be a whole new battery waste and recycle industry.... how is that lithium supply going anyway? (90% supply from just one country, lucky them)

For example hydrogen cells can use existing infrastructure, less manuf. and refill in a min, limitless supply,no recycle or waste industry. But focus and advance is all battery... atm.

[LeeM]

 @Philbee

Funny you mention about the greenies.

 I once watched a news story about a bunch of hippies blockading some mine or whatever it was, and they also made tree houses to stop them cutting trees down to make way for a new power plant. I thought it was a bit hypocritical when said greenies (who had all arrived in a vehicle being propelled by fossil fuels with the genius invention called the 'internal combustion engine') were keeping the rest of Australia informed by using their laptops and mobile phones which all have lithium ion batteries!

  Re the EV argument. I totally get it for the daily commute, and if I could have my daily work van electricity powered, I'd save a lot on fuel, yet most EV's are too expensive to buy for the average punter, and the resale/trade in prices I imagine would be shockingly low within 5 years due to the battery life being diminished, and replacement costs I imagine being pretty horrendous.

 To own an EV as your sole transport is a bit nutty to me

[Coastr]

Surprisingly to me, Tesla actually leads the competition when it comes to depreciation, topping the list currently for the Model S and the Model X.  This is probably attributable to lots of buyers and limited supply as they were ramping up production (there are a lot more around now they have the factory running properly).   Some data here : https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/12/tesla-model-s-tesla-model-x-hold-their-value-better-than-gasmobile-competitors/ - I don't expect it to last forever but the battery life is holding up very well in the cars with higher mileages.  They don't seem to die like a 5 year old laptop, I guess that is the amount of tech that goes into keeping the battery pack healthy to make it last longer (none of which is in your laptop or drill)

Nissan leafs tend to drop pretty hard, but then so do lots of new economy cars.  I don't think they are actually any better or worse than the equivalents.  We all forget about the increasingly expensive repairs that our cars require to keep on the road.  Even the resale on the hordes of Pri-ii that are getting around as Uber fodder seem to be lasting OK.  Lots of cars now will be economic write-offs within 10-15 years because of expensive engine failures like timing chain guides, vanos units, 'sealed for life' auto transmissions etc etc. 

8 hours ago, D2000 said:

For a commuter car, I wouldn’t mind the idea - at least it means you can drive the car hard straight out the door as no need to get the oil up to temperature first (or at least that is my understanding of electrics)

This is why I want one.  Actually, not so much for me, but for the other driver in the household who has very limited supplies of mechanical sympathy and a deaf ear to pleas to develop some.  Shopping/errand/pickup/mums taxi cars get killed by all the stop starts, and the fuel economy is horrible.   I'm at the point where I want an electric minivan with an all-rubber hose out interior, cast iron wheel trims and plastic body cladding.

The new V3 Tesla Superchargers can fill batteries at 1600km/hr.  That means if you're adding 400km range to a new Tesla which are wired to for it, you're only there for 15 minutes.  Given all the other times you save by filling up at home, I think that's getting to the acceptable point.  Still not great coverage in Australia (35 only), but they're going full steam on the rollout and within the next 10 years there will be 10-20x - who knows how many.  In 2014 they had 120 in the USA - there's now 1441 worldwide - 10x in 5 years.

As DJM says things can flip fast.  Kids who are 10 now will be 20 in 2030 and driving cars.  They'll look at petrol cars the way many of us looked at wheezy old column shift, leaf spring'd cars from the 50s - old hat.  

[JV911]

On 20/03/2019 at 06:47, D2000 said:

at least it means you can drive the car hard straight out the door as no need to get the oil up to temperature first (or at least that is my understanding of electrics)

Yes and no. Some instances need 10 mins to warm the batteries.

 

Surely hydrogen is a better option; Internal combustion, unlimited resources and zero emissions. It seems no one is taking it seriously, why?

[ANF]

18 minutes ago, JV911 said:

Yes and no. Some instances need 10 mins to warm the batteries.

 

Surely hydrogen is a better option; Internal combustion, unlimited resources and zero emissions. It seems no one is taking it seriously, why?

Making, distributing and storing the Hydrogen is the issue, for either Hydrogen ICE or Fuel Cell cars..... EV plug in is unfortunately just too easy, even if we cannot provide enough clean of it.....

[Coastr]

Yeah the big advantage of Hydrogen is the filling.  If battery tech can get to the point of solving the filling issue relatively well, it's not a big enough advantage to invest in the infrastructure.  Range with hydrogen is not that great with current tech, and the storage containers (fuel tank) is pretty pricey.  You also lose energy in the process - you only get (x-y)% power out of x% power into the process.

The 'every house is a filling station' part of battery EV is a big plus as the infrastructure is already there, and if you want more efficient filling nobody pays it but you (or the business you work for).  Where I work there are free battery charging stations in the carpark, although I see that perk lasting only a little while longer because everybody is buying an EV an arbitraging the free power, and the snarky notes and passive-aggressive behaviour has kicked in.  Time for a market price to sort that lot out.

The big disadvantage for battery EV (apart from range) is high density citiies were cars are street parked and there are very few garages.  It's possible to solve this with tapping the street lights with chargers (this has been tried I think) but still ends up with the problem.   It is a solveable issue - if they can spend all that money on parking enforcement it shouldn't take long to solve the issue of creating pay-per-charge parking spots in a city.  Money from fines and money from selling electricity - councils will wet their pants with excitement over new ways to fleece the residents.

 

[Nick987]

On ‎11‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 13:21, edgy said:

I am not sure how to feel about this! 

http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2017/porsche/macan/porsche-macan-to-go-all-electric-107964 

 

They won't sell in anywhere near those numbers, especially in AUS and the US. The Porsche boss sounds like a climate cultist, and I bet his days will be numbered once this EV push falls flat.

[Philbee]

3 hours ago, Nick987 said:

They won't sell in anywhere near those numbers, especially in AUS and the US. The Porsche boss sounds like a climate cultist, and I bet his days will be numbered once this EV push falls flat.

Yep, he’s a full-on greenie for sure but at least he’s trying to get rid of diesel - I hate diesel!

[Merv]

"Climate cultist'? I doubt it.  Nothing really wrong with Greenies, they are only trying to promote a more sustainable world. That's no sin. Porsche needs to spread its bets.  Their brand is a winner and they need a car range that responds to public demand and changing times.  A Porsche EV for everyday use makes sense. They know their business.  Charging stations are everywhere now and home charging with overnight off-peak is very cheap. Not quite yet reaching Henry Ford's mantra yet, "any car you like as long as it's black" (substitute EV for 'black').  I love the sound of my flat six (and my flat 4) but an EV is certainly in my future. With the latest building oil crisis in the Gulf and Australia's need to import much of its oil, it just makes sense. 

[Philbee]

Oh boy, where do I start....”nothing wrong with greenies”  🤪

[Redracn]

40 minutes ago, Merv said:

"Climate cultist'? I doubt it.  Nothing really wrong with Greenies, they are only trying to promote a more sustainable world. That's no sin. Porsche needs to spread its bets.  Their brand is a winner and they need a car range that responds to public demand and changing times.  A Porsche EV for everyday use makes sense. They know their business.  Charging stations are everywhere now and home charging with overnight off-peak is very cheap. Not quite yet reaching Henry Ford's mantra yet, "any car you like as long as it's black" (substitute EV for 'black').  I love the sound of my flat six (and my flat 4) but an EV is certainly in my future. With the latest building oil crisis in the Gulf and Australia's need to import much of its oil, it just makes sense. 

The push to EV is driven by government regulation particularly the fleet average consumption requirements and not consumer demand. This is demonstrated by how much the sales of EV dry up when subsidies are removed.

If you think we will have an issue with liquid fuel in the future then it will be insignificant compared to the shortage of electricity when everyone tries to plug their EV in. Neither the ability to produce electricity or the ability to distribute it in the quantity required currently exist and will cost $$$$$$$ to implement. And you won't get far on a 15Amp charge for the limited duration on the off peak supply which is variable and controlled by your supplier. 

So glueing yourself to the road or sabotaging logging equipment or raiding farmers properties and putting them out of business are all ok as long as you label yourself as green?

[Troubleshooter]

1 hour ago, Philbee said:

Oh boy, where do I start....”nothing wrong with greenies”  🤪

Phil, Greenies = watermelons, green on the outside  red on the inside

[ArthurK]

I'm all for an EV and its got nothing to do with being green. If anything an EV in Australia is not very green unless you are charging from solar. We export a truck load and would rather use it than give it back to the grid. So with a 400v DC solar system it would make for a great charging station into a Porsche/VW/Audi platform.

[Merv]

I have never understood the almost irrational hatred of anything that can be described as 'Greenie" politics or views in Australia.  I guess it is good to hate some group to make our own position seem more comfortable.  It used to be the "Commies" in the 60's.  We need balance in all things and by daring to show concern for our environment, some Green views attempt to provide balance. You don't have to agree with any of their views, but they do have an influence in the overall scheme of things.

Australia has one of the world's lowest take-up of EVs.  I expect that will change as we need to find ways to exploit renewable power generation in this hottest and windiest of continents.  There are lots of opinions on this issue and like most opinions are not always informed by the economic (not only environmental) factors at play.  Mine included I admit. I love my gasoline-powered Porsches but I will also have an EV in the not too distant future, for economic reasons as well as environmental.

[Nick987]

1 hour ago, Merv said:

I have never understood the almost irrational hatred of anything that can be described as 'Greenie" politics or views in Australia.  I guess it is good to hate some group to make our own position seem more comfortable.  It used to be the "Commies" in the 60's.  We need balance in all things and by daring to show concern for our environment, some Green views attempt to provide balance. You don't have to agree with any of their views, but they do have an influence in the overall scheme of things.

Australia has one of the world's lowest take-up of EVs.  I expect that will change as we need to find ways to exploit renewable power generation in this hottest and windiest of continents.  There are lots of opinions on this issue and like most opinions are not always informed by the economic (not only environmental) factors at play.  Mine included I admit. I love my gasoline-powered Porsches but I will also have an EV in the not too distant future, for economic reasons as well as environmental.

EVs are actually really bad for the environment, but that's another story. If it wasn't for the government regulations and subsidies then EVs wouldn't exist. What's worse is our grid will collapse if significant numbers do buy EVs, so the only way the grid would survive is if we build more coal power or nuclear, but the 'greenies' are simultaneously doing everything they can to stop that. It's not going  to end well.   

[Redracn]

3 hours ago, ArthurK said:

I'm all for an EV and its got nothing to do with being green. If anything an EV in Australia is not very green unless you are charging from solar. We export a truck load and would rather use it than give it back to the grid. So with a 400v DC solar system it would make for a great charging station into a Porsche/VW/Audi platform.

A week of clouds in Melbourne which is common in winter may mean you can not drive your Porsche/VW/Audi and this is the problem with the unreliable intermittent power sources. You can not use some long term average number to determine if power will be available when needed. Wind has essentially been MIA these last few weeks and it is coal and gas doing the heavy lifting. Reality is that wind and sola require backup which is almost entirely fossil fuel. 

2 hours ago, Merv said:

I have never understood the almost irrational hatred of anything that can be described as 'Greenie" politics or views in Australia.  I guess it is good to hate some group to make our own position seem more comfortable.  It used to be the "Commies" in the 60's.  We need balance in all things and by daring to show concern for our environment, some Green views attempt to provide balance. You don't have to agree with any of their views, but they do have an influence in the overall scheme of things.

 

Could it be that greenie politics hurts and tries to control people rather than help them?

[JWM]

14 hours ago, Merv said:

A Porsche EV for everyday use makes sense. They know their business.  

My wife just bought a new daily driver. If an EV Macan was available today, I would got that. 

Can we just get a “Combined I hate EVs mega-thread” so we don’t have to read the same posts recycled over and over everywhere it comes up?

[Redracn]

1 hour ago, JWM said:

My wife just bought a new daily driver. If an EV Macan was available today, I would got that. 

Can we just get a “Combined I hate EVs mega-thread” so we don’t have to read the same posts recycled over and over everywhere it comes up?

A mega thread for virtue signalling EV buyers showing off their purchase or desire to purchase one also seems appropriate. 

 

[Merv]

4 hours ago, Redracn said:

A week of clouds in Melbourne which is common in winter may mean you can not drive your Porsche/VW/Audi and this is the problem with the unreliable intermittent power sources. You can not use some long term average number to determine if power will be available when needed. Wind has essentially been MIA these last few weeks and it is coal and gas doing the heavy lifting. Reality is that wind and sola require backup which is almost entirely fossil fuel. 

Could it be that greenie politics hurts and tries to control people rather than help them?

Could it be that politics controlled by large corporations does the same?

[Coastr]

4 hours ago, JWM said:

My wife just bought a new daily driver. If an EV Macan was available today, I would got that. 

Can we just get a “Combined I hate EVs mega-thread” so we don’t have to read the same posts recycled over and over everywhere it comes up?

Did you look at the Jag e-pace?  Or are they not out in Aus yet?

[Redracn]

2 hours ago, Merv said:

Could it be that politics controlled by large corporations does the same?

Review of the Jag I pace.

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-reviews/jaguar-i-pace-se-73253

Seems EV manufactures lie about EV range even more than they do about ICE fuel consumption.