997 Carrera S market?

[TwoHeadsTas]

1 minute ago, sengkeng said:

Thanks for the feedback and info!

Looks like currently all the 997.2's are $170k+ which puts them in the 991 range.

I do like how the 997.2 are somewhat the last of the analogues though. I guess that's what is driving the price atm.

 

You probably don't want to know, but there was a 997.2 PDK non S listed here in Tassie earlier in the week at $139 and sold same day.  I could have bought it at private sale at $130, in fact I had a short test drive and it was during that where I formed my opinion about the 7.2 PDK.  If I'd wanted to proceed I would have offered $120.  $150+ seems to be the manual 7.2S pricing

[sengkeng]

1 minute ago, TwoHeadsTas said:

You probably don't want to know, but there was a 997.2 PDK non S listed here in Tassie earlier in the week at $139 and sold same day.  I could have bought it at private sale at $130, in fact I had a short test drive and it was during that where I formed my opinion about the 7.2 PDK.  If I'd wanted to proceed I would have offered $120.  $150+ seems to be the manual 7.2S pricing

When you say the 7.2 PDK is quite a step back, in what way? Slower shifts?

I think at minimum I'm looking for a 7.2S, will look into the 991's as well

 

[P-Kay]

16 minutes ago, sengkeng said:

I do like how the 997.2 are somewhat the last of the analogues though. I guess that's what is driving the price atm

I think so...That along with the improved engine with it's Direct Injection plus none of the perceived foibles the previous generation seem to suffer with

[TwoHeadsTas]

8 minutes ago, sengkeng said:

When you say the 7.2 PDK is quite a step back, in what way? Slower shifts?

I think at minimum I'm looking for a 7.2S, will look into the 991's as well

 

Yes, 981/991 PDK is much "crisper" if I was to put a word to it

[WGA]

The worst thing about the PDK in the 997.2 is that the up/down shift pattern on the centre stick is the wrong way round. Its push forward for up and pull back for down. Totally counter intuitive. They switched it around for the 991.

[Grimmy]

16 hours ago, P-Kay said:

I think so...That along with the improved engine with it's Direct Injection plus none of the perceived foibles the previous generation seem to suffer with

P-Kay absolutely the .2 in the 997 and 987 was a SIGNIFICANT upgrade over the previous M96/97 engine. 

Of course the .2 saw the introduction of the superb PDK but the real story is in how much of a significant change was made in the powerplant.

Outside of that on all .2's (997 and 987) head lights and tail lights  (and bumper clip) rec'd a minor update and the centre console hvac plastics are finished in black with a minor revision to the hvac control unit and the introduction of the PCM 3.0 headunit.

Funnily enough I actually think the non DFI 2.9 variant of the new engine used in the 987.2 boxster and cayman has a sweeter induction sound at higher rev's than the DFI unit!

Here is a summary of the changes introduced the powerplant (bit of copy and paste 😉)and also see below a video showing the level of testing to ensure the 9a1 didnt suffer the same oil starvation issues the M96/M97 can suffer under high G forces.

----------

PORSCHE 9A1 ENGINE

This article is intended to provide a brief, technical description of the Porsche 9a1 engine. Its design is robust and advanced.

Main Differences from Predecessor M96 & M97 One of the main differences from the predecessors M96 & M97 is that the 9a1 engine has no IMS bearing or shaft. The timing chains on 9a1 engine are located on the front of engine for both banks as well as a small chain to drive the oil pump. Because of this configuration the chains are longer and the timing chain speed is faster. The engine block in the 9a1 engine is a monolithic-alusil (alloy material commonly used in sleeveless engine blocks, mostly used by German auto manufactures) with integral cylinders.  Its weakness is that it is not very forgiving to overheating and cannot be welded; however, its design is robust and powerful. The 9a1 has 8 main bearings as opposed to 7 on the M96 & M97 engine. The crankshaft of the 9a1 is forged and nitro-carburized heat treated with a .015 depth (as opposed to the M96 & M97 has heat treating of .003). The crankshaft has 12 counterweights and 63mm main bearing journals. Number 2,4,6 main bearing journals are grooved to supply oil;

the rest are smooth. All timing chains and the oil pump drive run off the front of the crankshaft. There is no crankshaft carrier in the 9a1 engine. The main bearings are built into the block. The engine block has a closed deck design as opposed to the open deck of the M96 & M97.  Just to note, the closed deck design is more robust; however, comes with higher coolant temperatures and higher oil temps under heavy load.

Pistons in the 9a1 are forged. The top ring land on the piston is hard anodized to handle the increased pressure due to the DFI (Direct Fuel Injection). On the bottom of the pistons are oil squirters for cooling. The compression ratio of the engine is 12.0:1.  The oiling system on the 9a1 is an integral dry sump with 4 scavenger pumps. Oil pressure is controlled by the DME (Digital Motor Electronics) on demand. The DME recognizes combustion and responds with the correct oil pressure.  The returning oil coming out of the scavenge pumps will be foamy and needs to de-aerate, which is done directly out of oil of the pump in anti-foam swirl pots.

HEADS/CAMSHAFT The 9a1 heads are die-cast (not sand cast), which is a good method of limiting and/or eliminating porosity issues and maintains more exact tolerances since the metal is forced into the die under high pressure; however, as a result they cannot be welded. There is no lifter carrier in the heads. The lifter bores are integral to the head. All 9a1s are variocam plus. The camshaft has hardly any duration but has huge lift and ramp speed. The camshafts are shorter on B2 because the fuel pump drives off bank 1. There are stronger cam caps, stronger gears (2014+ have module cam lobes like a 904 or a 4 cam Carrera). There is 5 mm more valve lift on 911 9a1 as opposed to the 9a1 Boxster and Cayman. Valves are bi-metallic with a 6mm stem and dual valve springs. Valve guides are short 31.75 mm or 1.25” long and made of manganese (Mn). The head gasket is a multilayer steel, coated with heat resistant plastic. Thermal heat transfer is good. There are coolant stabilizers to maintain and even coolant flow balance in the engine block. The water pump is a closed impeller, pretty much overkill but nice to have.  DIRECT FUEL INJECTION

Fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber under extremely high pressure (between 1400-1740 psi). Fuel pressure can only be checked using Porsche Scan Tool (PIWIS  or equivalent tool). As previously noted, the fuel pump is driven off the front of the engine B1, exhaust cam. Advantages of DFI are that engines can have a higher compression ratio and run leaner mixtures. The stratified fuel charge does not require long idle periods to warm up the engine.   CONCLUSION Best thing to do is go buy one, start the car and drive. Keep the RPMs under 3k until the engine warms up, which does not take long. Note: slow drives at low RPM are an unhealthy diet for this engine. Burn good fuel and drive hard. That is what this engine needs and loves.

 

 

[jman1974]

Hi Guys - I'm new to this forum, I grew up in Sydney but have been living a working in the UK for the last 10 years... will be returning to Australia to live end of next year and thinking of bringing my car with me - which I will likely sell shortly after arrival - early 2024....I have a 2012, 997.2, GTS4 Cab, PDK.  By the time I ship it back next year it will probably have just shy of 100,000 miles on the clock (160km) - I'm the 5th owner and I know the history of the car and it has always been taken care of a official Porsche service centres in the UK and is a really well maintained beautiful car....just higher mileage than maybe some would like to see....

I have only been able to find one 997.2 GTS on the market at the moment in Australia - it is a 2011, 997.2 coupe 2GTS but it has only done 33,000 (so big difference in mileage) - asking price is $286,000 + govt charges etc....

Is the 2GTS at $286,000 likely to sell at around that price?  

Got any idea  / thoughts on what my well maintained GTS4 Cab with 160k on the clock might be worth on the Aussie market - now / 12 months from now....???

 

 

 

[Sov]

1 hour ago, jman1974 said:

Hi Guys - I'm new to this forum, I grew up in Sydney but have been living a working in the UK for the last 10 years... will be returning to Australia to live end of next year and thinking of bringing my car with me - which I will likely sell shortly after arrival - early 2024....I have a 2012, 997.2, GTS4 Cab, PDK.  By the time I ship it back next year it will probably have just shy of 100,000 miles on the clock (160km) - I'm the 5th owner and I know the history of the car and it has always been taken care of a official Porsche service centres in the UK and is a really well maintained beautiful car....just higher mileage than maybe some would like to see....

I have only been able to find one 997.2 GTS on the market at the moment in Australia - it is a 2011, 997.2 coupe 2GTS but it has only done 33,000 (so big difference in mileage) - asking price is $286,000 + govt charges etc....

Is the 2GTS at $286,000 likely to sell at around that price?  

Got any idea  / thoughts on what my well maintained GTS4 Cab with 160k on the clock might be worth on the Aussie market - now / 12 months from now....???

 

 

 

Completely different car, however, my friend was selling a 991 GTS (3.8) and couldn't move it. The market just didn't seem to care about the GTS badge and as such he ended up trading it to a dealer.

IMO, and yours may differ, I think the only badges that carry a significant premium over a Carrera are GT2, GT3, and Turbo. Yes, there will be pricing differences between an S and a non-S, 997.1 vs 997.2, C4 vs C2, etc. but it's mostly small. What's going to play more into the price is going to be coupe/cab/targa, auto/man, local/import, kilometres and history.

If it were me I would be selling it before I left. Failing that I would be pricing it as a high mileage, imported, convertible, 997.2 Carrera 4.

[WGA]

Having been through what you are currently contemplating (lived in the UK and had a couple of Pcars I wanted to bring back last year) I ditched the idea.

Once the quotes came through for transport, import duty, GST, LCT plus the state based Stamp Duty/Rego cost, the numbers just did not stack up....or were so marginal as to make the risk of it not worthwhile. Especially combined with the 20% discount the local market applies to UK cars.

As a result, I reckon your GTS cab would be lucky to command a price over $200K. Like I did with mine, I would sell it in the UK before heading back to AUS.

[cc74]

2 hours ago, the_sovereign_man said:

Completely different car, however, my friend was selling a 991 GTS (3.8) and couldn't move it. The market just didn't seem to care about the GTS badge and as such he ended up trading it to a dealer.

IMO, and yours may differ, I think the only badges that carry a significant premium over a Carrera are GT2, GT3, and Turbo. Yes, there will be pricing differences between an S and a non-S, 997.1 vs 997.2, C4 vs C2, etc. but it's mostly small. What's going to play more into the price is going to be coupe/cab/targa, auto/man, local/import, kilometres and history.

If it were me I would be selling it before I left. Failing that I would be pricing it as a high mileage, imported, convertible, 997.2 Carrera 4.

That's interesting. When and how much was he asking?

[sleazius]

Cab + Import + high miles + that vintage of PDK.

100% sell it in the UK. You will struggle to sell it here, and I doubt you would crack $180k.

GTS (along with a bunch of other 911s here) don't sell at $286k, they just sit for 12 months and then get traded to a dealer for 60% of that. We're also in a falling market. No-one wants to try to catch the knife.

If you want to play the import game you'll need to buy something rare in the Australian market, or something that Boomers will buy.

Low mileage 993 Turbo is about the only mainstream 911 that I can think of that you'd have a chance of making money on.

[jman1974]

Thanks for your comments and advice guys...I was guessing that perhaps the price in the local market would be around $170k - $180k, at this money it is still worth the costs involved with shipping it back and landing it - duties, GST LCT etc.....IF I can move it!

On the weekend I just bought a 2015 981 Boxster GTS (10,000 miles), which I will bring back and will be my wheels in Australia...if I could flip the 4 GTS at $175k there is a enough profit in it to make the Boxster GTS a "free" car!

 

6 hours ago, the_sovereign_man said:

Completely different car, however, my friend was selling a 991 GTS (3.8) and couldn't move it. The market just didn't seem to care about the GTS badge and as such he ended up trading it to a dealer.

IMO, and yours may differ, I think the only badges that carry a significant premium over a Carrera are GT2, GT3, and Turbo. Yes, there will be pricing differences between an S and a non-S, 997.1 vs 997.2, C4 vs C2, etc. but it's mostly small. What's going to play more into the price is going to be coupe/cab/targa, auto/man, local/import, kilometres and history.

If it were me I would be selling it before I left. Failing that I would be pricing it as a high mileage, imported, convertible, 997.2 Carrera 4.

Thx Sovereign_Man - what in your opinion would be the approx price you would put on it as a high mileage, imported, cab, 997.2 4S?

[jman1974]

26 minutes ago, jman1974 said:

Thanks for your comments and advice guys...I was guessing that perhaps the price in the local market would be around $170k - $180k, at this money it is still worth the costs involved with shipping it back and landing it - duties, GST LCT etc.....IF I can move it!

On the weekend I just bought a 2015 981 Boxster GTS (10,000 miles), which I will bring back and will be my wheels in Australia...if I could flip the 4 GTS at $175k there is a enough profit in it to make the Boxster GTS a "free" car!

 

Thx Sovereign_Man - what in your opinion would be the approx price you would put on it as a high mileage, imported, cab, 997.2 4S?

and as you've mentioned Turbos potentially commanding a premium what would be your best guesstimate for a UK imported 2006 997.1 Turbo coupe with about 150,000km on the clock?

6 hours ago, the_sovereign_man said:

Completely different car, however, my friend was selling a 991 GTS (3.8) and couldn't move it. The market just didn't seem to care about the GTS badge and as such he ended up trading it to a dealer.

IMO, and yours may differ, I think the only badges that carry a significant premium over a Carrera are GT2, GT3, and Turbo. Yes, there will be pricing differences between an S and a non-S, 997.1 vs 997.2, C4 vs C2, etc. but it's mostly small. What's going to play more into the price is going to be coupe/cab/targa, auto/man, local/import, kilometres and history.

If it were me I would be selling it before I left. Failing that I would be pricing it as a high mileage, imported, convertible, 997.2 Carrera 4.

 

[sleazius]

You're talking about a hard car to move regardless what the price is. Cabs are normally 15% discount. UK import at least 20% discount. High mileage as well? Good luck.

Not trying to be negative, its just a very undesirable 911 in our market, and the market is falling. Things may be different of course in 12 months.

 

[jman1974]

1 hour ago, sleazius said:

You're talking about a hard car to move regardless what the price is. Cabs are normally 15% discount. UK import at least 20% discount. High mileage as well? Good luck.

Not trying to be negative, its just a very undesirable 911 in our market, and the market is falling. Things may be different of course in 12 months.

 

thanks for your thoughts Sleazius - so I do have the option of trading my car in the UK now and buying something different (maybe more desirable) at a price that makes sense and hopefully still potentially achieves what I am trying to do (which is make enough of a profit to recoup all or if not a lot of what I have spent and will spend importing the 981 GTS).... in such a case what would you suggest I try to buy?  (bearing in mind that a GT2, GT3 are out of my price range over here).... lets say a 997.2 Carrera, Coupe with no more than 80,000km on the clock....2S, 4S? Manual or PDK??

...and then what would you think I could expect to sell it for bearing in mind the UK import status?

[LeeM]

3 hours ago, jman1974 said:

 

...and then what would you think I could expect to sell it for bearing in mind the UK import status?

 Mate, even in this current market, trying to put a price on any UK import is a bit of a lottery. Unless it's a mint 60's air cooled, a GT2 993 or something uber rare and highly desirable by collectors,  trying to gauge what our market will do in 6 to 12 months time is even more of a lottery with shorter odds.

 Many people have a helluva lot more knowledgeable than myself on this adventure,  have gone down this path before and abandoned the idea, as any car that's an import (especially from the UK with your lovely salted roads) is usually hard to move unless it's priced very, very well to make it an attractive proposition to a potential buyer.

 Of course it's been done before, and you might get lucky, yet from what I've read on this forum by members who have bought and sold many Porsches, and those I've spoken to about it, sellers usually end up either coming out even or making a loss.

 Worth the financial risk? That's only up to you the seller to take the chance. 

 

[sjm]

9 hours ago, jman1974 said:

thanks for your thoughts Sleazius - so I do have the option of trading my car in the UK now and buying something different (maybe more desirable) at a price that makes sense and hopefully still potentially achieves what I am trying to do (which is make enough of a profit to recoup all or if not a lot of what I have spent and will spend importing the 981 GTS).... in such a case what would you suggest I try to buy?  (bearing in mind that a GT2, GT3 are out of my price range over here).... lets say a 997.2 Carrera, Coupe with no more than 80,000km on the clock....2S, 4S? Manual or PDK??

...and then what would you think I could expect to sell it for bearing in mind the UK import status?

You need to have proof of ownership of at least 12 months to qualify for import to Australia. At least it was when I researched a while ago. Just be aware of all the hoops you need to jump through. 

[jman1974]

7 hours ago, LeeM said:

 Mate, even in this current market, trying to put a price on any UK import is a bit of a lottery. Unless it's a mint 60's air cooled, a GT2 993 or something uber rare and highly desirable by collectors,  trying to gauge what our market will do in 6 to 12 months time is even more of a lottery with shorter odds.

 Many people have a helluva lot more knowledgeable than myself on this adventure,  have gone down this path before and abandoned the idea, as any car that's an import (especially from the UK with your lovely salted roads) is usually hard to move unless it's priced very, very well to make it an attractive proposition to a potential buyer.

 Of course it's been done before, and you might get lucky, yet from what I've read on this forum by members who have bought and sold many Porsches, and those I've spoken to about it, sellers usually end up either coming out even or making a loss.

 Worth the financial risk? That's only up to you the seller to take the chance. 

 

I appreciate what your saying and I know that nobody has a crystal ball....and I know this is my risk to weigh up....but let me ask my question another way....from what sleazius was saying cabs fetch less on the Aussie market compared to coupes....

So I guess what I'm asking is (forgetting the UK import status for a moment) if I could find a coupe that has a max km of say 80,000km - is there a configuration of 997.2 (e.g 2S v 4S, PDK V Manual) that seems to be a 'sweet spot' in terms of Aussie market values....and tends to be more desirable / valuable in terms of 'mainstream' 911's??  and what sort of price does that 'sweet spot' currently sell for in Australia - for an Australian originating car? 

Is a 997.2 manual more desirable and potentially worth more than a PDK?

At least if I know what 911 config to aim for in terms of trading / replacing my current 4GTS Cab here in the UK - I can give myself a fighting chance... see what sort of ££ I can buy for here - do my sums - and see if the numbers stack up (taking say 20% - 25% off for the UK import status).  Then I am at least armed with the info I need to decide whether it is worth taking the risk or not.

For instance I can buy a nicely spec'd 2011, 997.2 Coupe C2S PDK - with good providence, good service and maintenance history with equivalent of 79,000 kilometres on the clock for £43,000. £ is pretty weak at present, so to ship that and land it paying all duties, GST, LCT it will cost a total of about AUD$98,000 equivalent....that seams to me to be a pretty cheap 911...and I'm thinking there must be a reasonable profit in that - even if I do have to price it very very well and it takes me a while to move.

Casting aside the UK import thing....I would appreciate your thoughts / opinion on best possible 997.2 configuration for best potential value / widest appeal / desirability.

3 hours ago, sjm said:

You need to have proof of ownership of at least 12 months to qualify for import to Australia. At least it was when I researched a while ago. Just be aware of all the hoops you need to jump through. 

yes thanks sjm, I know that...hence why I have just bought the 981 GTS I want to bring back in a years time and will sell / trade my 4 GTS for something more broadly desirable ASAP (next few weeks)

[sleazius]

You're asking for advice but you're not really listening to it.

WGA owned some serious metal, and decided it made more sense to leave them in the UK. Those cars have the greatest potential to be worth the effort and he still left them behind.

You're talking about garden variety 911s, chances of making anything are slim (you'll likely end up with a bill).

I will answer your question but my advice is not to attempt it.

997.2 Coupe C2S, less than 40k kms, but lower is better, no rust anywhere, manual, something neutral like silver, impeccable service history, clean ppi.

If you persist with high mileage cars you're going to have a very bad time here. Australia is not the market to try to sell high mileage sports cars in. Especially ones that aren't that desirable to begin with. You have to remember carsales for sports cars here is 98% "no offers love, promise i'll sell it" or "some sucker will buy it". Genuine cars last a day, and are priced significantly lower than what you see sitting online. The caveat to that is something highly desirable.

Here is a great example - the only manual C2S 991 on sale, UK import, low mileage. Sitting and sitting. You're talking about bringing in cars that are far less desirable again. What do you think the outcome will be?

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2013-porsche-911-carrera-s-991-manual/OAG-AD-21254052/?Cr=6

 

[mystro]

@jman1974

My 2 cents (or pence). 
I own a UK Import 997, 
The mindset is wrong unfortunately. This is a factory built car which is right hand drive. It absolutely makes if you want a 911 regardless as long as it is well maintained and corrosion free. These cars are not made anymore and to find one specifically to the spec you want is the way to go. 
The objective is not to make a profit, the objective is to enjoy the flat 6. 
There will be a turn of events whereby a UK import will no longer matter as there will be less and less of them around and the mindset changes.  If people care about a sticker rather than a metal compliance plate then... I'll leave it there.

Note - Supply and demand will always win! 

[jman1974]

34 minutes ago, sleazius said:

You're asking for advice but you're not really listening to it.

WGA owned some serious metal, and decided it made more sense to leave them in the UK. Those cars have the greatest potential to be worth the effort and he still left them behind.

You're talking about garden variety 911s, chances of making anything are slim (you'll likely end up with a bill).

I will answer your question but my advice is not to attempt it.

997.2 Coupe C2S, less than 40k kms, but lower is better, no rust anywhere, manual, something neutral like silver, impeccable service history, clean ppi.

If you persist with high mileage cars you're going to have a very bad time here. Australia is not the market to try to sell high mileage sports cars in. Especially ones that aren't that desirable to begin with. You have to remember carsales for sports cars here is 98% "no offers love, promise i'll sell it" or "some sucker will buy it". Genuine cars last a day, and are priced significantly lower than what you see sitting online. The caveat to that is something highly desirable.

Here is a great example - the only manual C2S 991 on sale, UK import, low mileage. Sitting and sitting. You're talking about bringing in cars that are far less desirable again. What do you think the outcome will be?

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2013-porsche-911-carrera-s-991-manual/OAG-AD-21254052/?Cr=6

 

Appreciate your advice sleazius and thank you for answering my question.

[WGA]

43 minutes ago, mystro said:

@jman1974

My 2 cents (or pence). 
I own a UK Import 997, 
The mindset is wrong unfortunately. This is a factory built car which is right hand drive. It absolutely makes if you want a 911 regardless as long as it is well maintained and corrosion free. These cars are not made anymore and to find one specifically to the spec you want is the way to go. 
The objective is not to make a profit, the objective is to enjoy the flat 6. 
There will be a turn of events whereby a UK import will no longer matter as there will be less and less of them around and the mindset changes.  If people care about a sticker rather than a metal compliance plate then... I'll leave it there.

Note - Supply and demand will always win! 

Agree that the mindset is wrong. If someone wants to import a car to keep for the long term because they love the car, then I say go for it. However, if you are looking for a quick flip, then it's too risky. Especially if the seller needs quick liquidity because the car could (or most likely would) sit on car sales for 12months+.

[Sov]

21 hours ago, cc74 said:

That's interesting. When and how much was he asking?

Very recently. Traded for $230k

18 hours ago, jman1974 said:

 

Thx Sovereign_Man - what in your opinion would be the approx price you would put on it as a high mileage, imported, cab, 997.2 4S?

Here is a 997.2, Aus delivered, Manual, Coupe, 4S with 123k, and they're asking $159,500. My opinion is your car would fetch less than this.

[mystro]

1 hour ago, the_sovereign_man said:

Very recently. Traded for $230k

Here is a 997.2, Aus delivered, Manual, Coupe, 4S with 123k, and they're asking $159,500. My opinion is your car would fetch less than this.

This is a UK import. 

[Boosh]

3 hours ago, jman1974 said:

...

For instance I can buy a nicely spec'd 2011, 997.2 Coupe C2S PDK - with good providence, good service and maintenance history with equivalent of 79,000 kilometres on the clock for £43,000. £ is pretty weak at present, so to ship that and land it paying all duties, GST, LCT it will cost a total of about AUD$98,000 equivalent....that seams to me to be a pretty cheap 911...and I'm thinking there must be a reasonable profit in that - even if I do have to price it very very well and it takes me a while to move.

...

Early last year there was a 997.2 C2S PDK import from UK that had 160k on it. The asking price was $95k. Probably sold for a bit less. I realise prices have increased since then but I doubt you will make much of a profit on a UK import.