996 GT3 Purchase

[bear924]

Even considering the rarity of a touring .1 GT3, I'm still thinking a touring would be valued lower than a club sport? Personally I'm actually more inclined towards a touring version however given two cars of the same condition, I would value the touring at ~$10k less. Thoughts??

[On the Limit]

I've been reading this thread for a while gents and thought I'd share my own personal story.   I previously owned a 2003 996 TT Manual in Arctic Silver.  Car was immaculate and a great drive, however I always craved a GT3 MK1 and watched on the sidelines for the 'right' car while the asking prices for these cars were not in pause mode waiting for me to do a deal. Talking to PCM I knew there were only around a dozen or so MKI Touring's sold in Australia and I wanted one with the std C23 touring seat which was the hard backed racing bucket seat (same as in the CS), but trimmed in black leather as opposed to black nomex.  I still think this seat is the most comfortable sports seat Porsche has made for the GT3 especially for blokes like me who need the shoulder width.  I recall someone at PCV saying there were about 6 or so cars that shipped to Australia from the factory with the C23 touring sets (someone on this forum might have the actual numbers). Anyway, along the way I drove and looked at various different models in Melbourne and Sydney.  Even though the color was not to my liking I just missed out on the white 2001 MK1 import that Autohaus had for sale at a very keen price.  Congrats to the Forum owner that picked up that car, it sold in less that a week.  The car was advertised on a Monday, I rang Anthony from Autohaus late morning Monday and arranged to view the car at their Nth Sydney Service centre the following Monday (as I'd be in Syd for a couple of days).  I received a call on the Friday to advise me that they had received a deposit on the car and subject to finance it was sold.  Autohaus later called me to confirm it's sale.   I also looked at the immaculate and very low km's 996 MK2 Touring at the Classic Throttle Shop, asking price $189K I recall.  By the time I saw the car it had been on the market for nearly 3 months.  Multiple offers received all rejected.  $175K was also rejected very quickly with the advice that another buyer was circling.  About a week later the car was sold to a NSW collector who did a deal on two cars -  the MK2 plus a Ferrari.  The seller of this MK2 GT3 had originally bought the car on advice from Rob Raymer at RSR (may you rest in peace Rob).  I had spoken to Rob earlier in 2017 and at the time his view was that I should budget $145K+ for a MK1 and $155K+ for the MK2 depending on Kms & condition.  He never did find that car for me.  But by Spring  prices seemed to have moved on from those levels, at least the asking prices had and not many were willing to haggle either by the way.   Like forum member DJM I too was intrigued when PCM advertised a white 997 GT3 CS for $179K. This was way below where the market was for these cars at the time with many being offered around $220K so I had to see it in the flesh.   I dropped into PCM and inspected the car before it had gone through their PPI.  Without going into all the details, short version of the story is that PCM was not able to offer this car for sale.  A little time went by and I came across a MK1Touring.  The gentleman selling this car had two MK1's in his garage!  The one I bought was never advertised but ticked all the boxes (including the seats!).  And I paid close to the asking price too.  Now back to the turbo.  I enjoyed the turbo, I especially enjoyed pressing the loud pedal to the floor as often as possible.  Those that have owned one of these cars will know what I mean when I say the acceleration is intoxicating and you just want to keep repeating the process over and over again.  Out of any corner you just floor it and hang on.  The thing just hunkers down, grips and catapults you out the other side.  Go in too hot and there is a strong tendency (with std factory settings), for understeer which is exactly what Porsche intended.   It's a heavy car and mine felt heavy under braking and turn in.  It's not a car I was able to throw around and I learnt to drive it a particular way that worked for me. More experienced drivers among you may have other thoughts.  The MK1 I have to say is nothing like the turbo in the acceleration stakes but the car is off the scale for driver involvement and I mean off the scale. Even compared to my track special 370Z, the steering and chassis feel is from another dimension/design compared to the turbo and I want to drive it allot more than I did the turbo. That steering in the MK1 with factory suspension settings is just incredible and tactile. I could go on - sorry about that.   Anyway that's my story gents.  

May you each find what you are looking for. 

[bear924]

Great post OTL and welcome to PFA.  I wasn't aware of the C23 option, I'll have to go googling and get some examples.  I really appreciated your comparison between the turbo and GT3, its rare to read a comparison from someone who has actually owned both. 

[hugh]

Amen @On the Limit , feeling the MK1 love. 

[On the Limit]

Hey thanks bear924 and hugh.  Much has been written on the 996 MK1 and 2 GT3.  Many comparisons done throughout the UK Porsche mags we've all read.  For me I always just loved the look and sound of the car.  The driving dynamics are just an unbelievable bonus.  In the many articles I've read about the cars, I haven't come across much explanation as to Porsche's marketing of the car back in 1999 in terms of existing owners they were enticing to trade-up to this car.  Porsche went out of it's way to explain why they didn't call the MK1an RS.  The extra 20KGs of weight over the std 996 Carrera had a lot to do with it even though the MK1's running gear (engine, transmission was vastly different and gave much greater performance gains over the std Carrera than the jump from 993 Carrera to 993RS did) and it used the heavier Carrera 4 body.  It's interesting to note that when the MK2 GT3 RS did come along it was actually heavier than the MK1(Porsche figures said about 10KG).   The MK1 CS was also heavier (by about 10KG I think), than the touring (due mainly to the half cage).  By the way, the RHD GT3's were even lighter than their LHD counterparts due to the roughly 30 litre smaller fuel tank.  During my GT3 search I had the opportunity to speak to a number of sellers that previously owned and in some cases raced the 993RS when these cars were relatively new.  In general they said the MK1 was about as close as you could get to the 993RS in handling and the Porsche sales teams used this pitch with potential buyers (can anyone confirm this?).  Most agreed that of the two they would chose the RS because it was even more telepathic in the way it communicated to the driver even though it was not as fast as the GT3.  I've read a Chris Harris track test where he compared a 993RS with a 993GT2, 996MK1 and 996MK2 and he describes a similar experience with the 993RS being his pick followed I think by the MK1 car (someone might correct me on this).  A couple of the owners also commented that the MK2 car was even further removed from the 993RS and even more a track oriented car with clearly superior mechanicals to the MK1 but with a chassis that was less forgiving.  They recalled stories of the period 2000-2005 where numerous owners of 993RS's that had traded their cars for the 996GT3 MK1 and MK2's cars, that later traded these cars back for the RS, having not been able to come to grips with the handling of the GT3 esp the MK2 car.  I haven't driven the 993RS so I don't know if these comparisons are valid or just opinions based on personal driving styles.  One thing for sure though - when/if I do get the chance to sample a 993RS I'll gladly share my experience in this Forum.

Cheers

[hugh]

24 minutes ago, On the Limit said:

One thing for sure though - when/if I do get the chance to sample a 993RS I'll gladly share my experience in this Forum.

Where is @Skidmarks to maybe add to this conversation? 

[edgy]

13 hours ago, On the Limit said:

 I wanted one with the std C23 touring seat which was the hard backed racing bucket seat (same as in the CS), but trimmed in black leather as opposed to black nomex.  I still think this seat is the most comfortable sports seat Porsche has made for the GT3 especially for blokes like me who need the shoulder width.  I recall someone at PCV saying there were about 6 or so cars that shipped to Australia from the factory with the C23 touring sets (someone on this forum might have the actual numbers).

I'm confused by this "C23 seats", C23 is the country code for Australian equipment (M Code 479 too), from memory, the leather recaros were an option for the touring, it is also possible they were standard equipment for the Australian market, and that the "sports seats (both mechanical & electric adjustable)"  were options (like they were in the 968 CS). 

M Codes exist for both 

XSE - Bucket Seat, Left 

XSF - Bucket Seat, Right 

Then for example: 

537 - Seat Memory, Left 

538 - Seat Memory, Right 

I'd be interested to run a VIN with PCA and find out what the case was, my old 996 GT3 was configured like this, I agree, they are the best seat especially if you're a bit wide, like me... I liked them so much I got a set and put them in the 7. 

 

[On the Limit]

Hi edge, Anthony from Autohaus advised me that the leather hard backed bucket seat was std equipment for the Australian Market on the GT3 MK1 Touring.  He referred to it as C23.  I also have some documentation from PCM and will double check.

[MichaelF]

4 hours ago, On the Limit said:

I've read a Chris Harris track test where he compared a 993RS with a 993GT2, 996MK1 and 996MK2 and he describes a similar experience with the 993RS being his pick followed I think by the MK1 car (someone might correct me on this). 

I haven't seen this particular test, but Chris Harris has always been a bit hard on the MK1 compared to the MK2 in the reviews I've read. He had some interesting quotes from Andreas Preuninger on what he though was wrong with the MK1 (brakes too small, engine not quite gutsy enough), and how they went about 'fixing' them for the MK2. Preuninger wasn't involved in the MK1 FYI...

 

From my experts armchair having never driven either, I've got a slight preference for the MK1 based on reviews. But when the time comes (it will!!) I would be happy with either and buy on condition / spec.

[GTP911]

54 minutes ago, MichaelF said:

 MK2. Preuninger wasn't involved in the MK1 FYI...

The above point adds to the credibility/status of the MK1: Built by Porsche Motorsport division, and not the Marketing/Product development team 

[On the Limit]

Hi MichaelF, agree CH was not backward in describing the deficiencies of the MK1.  By the way the Chris Harris article I referred to appeared in the August 2005 edition of GT Purely Porsche and the test was at the Croft circuit.  I still have that edition buried somewhere in the garage.

Cheers

[MichaelF]

Thanks, will have to track it down. Sounds like it would be a good read.

[edgy]

23 hours ago, On the Limit said:

Hi edge, Anthony from Autohaus advised me that the leather hard backed bucket seat was std equipment for the Australian Market on the GT3 MK1 Touring.  He referred to it as C23.  I also have some documentation from PCM and will double check.

Out of curiosity, I ran my old VIN with Porsche Cars Australia, here is the response:

WP0ZZZ99Z4S69**** comes up as a 2004 MY, Australian delivered GT3 (model 996811). 
Arctic silver metallic with grey leather interior. 
Options list below: 

567		Top tinted windscreen
573		Air conditioning
581		Front section of centre console
697		Porsche CDR 23 radio
E73		Carbon package (large)
P74		Bi-Xenon lighting system
X99		Leather interior in natural leather
Y05		Gear lever and handbrake lever in carbon

So it is the case that, the Recaros were standard for the Australia (and probably everywhere but USA) delivery cars, seems all motorsport cars came this way until recently!

Again C23 is only the country code for Australia, all cars delivered here will wear it. Our spec is similar to Euro in most cases. 

Also, what is often referred to as a touring, does not seem to be accounted for by Porsche, it would appear you buy a GT3 (Model 996811) and add a M003 option to it...  

Therefore we've all been labelling these cars wrong!  

 

 

[symsy]

has anyone seen this car that sparked all the convo??

 

[On the Limit]

Hi Edgy, this is a snapshot of what I have from Porsche service from last year on mine.........No mention of a bucket seat option just the seat finish being in black leather.  They also followed up via email to confirm the car was delivered with the Recaro's.  Also nothing to identify the car as a 'Touring' 

 

[edgy]

14 minutes ago, On the Limit said:

Hi Edgy, this is a snapshot of what I have from Porsche service from last year on mine.........No mention of a bucket seat option just the seat finish being in black leather.  They also followed up via email to confirm the car was delivered with the Recaro's.  Also nothing to identify the car as a 'Touring' 

Cool, as my old 996 had “full leather” option, that would have covered the seats too. 

So it is clearly the case that you bought a “GT3” and proceeded to option it, the seats we often call “touring or komfort” are to be optioned in place of the recaros but not in conjunction with 003 (Clubsport) option which adds rollbar. 

That all makes sense to me, my 968 Clubsport was a sales type 968411 which had “optioned”  382/382 reclining/mechanical adjustable front seats (again in place of the recaros) and 685 rear seat option... 

This has been enlightening  

[Brow]

On 1/17/2018 at 9:55 AM, edgy said:

Out of curiosity, I ran my old VIN with Porsche Cars Australia, here is the response:

 

um where about's on that web site can you do such a search ? many thanks 

 

 

[On the Limit]

With plenty of spare time while holidaying with the family, I thought I'd do some analysis on the UK, US and Australian GT3 markets.  Throws up some interesting numbers once you compare averages and median values across the geo's.  It's only a point in time view and to get statistically meaningful results you'd need to keep this analysis running for 6-12 months.  As I'm marginally handy in the software analytics dept I'm going to automate this report and see what results come in.  I'll leave it those interested to comment.

 

US Market and UK 996 GT3 price analysis 21 jan 2018.docx

[symsy]

14 minutes ago, On the Limit said:

With plenty of spare time while holidaying with the family, I thought I'd do some analysis on the UK, US and Australian GT3 markets.  Throws up some interesting numbers once you compare averages and median values across the geo's.  It's only a point in time view and to get statistically meaningful results you'd need to keep this analysis running for 6-12 months.  As I'm marginally handy in the software analytics dept I'm going to automate this report and see what results come in.  I'll leave it those interested to comment.

 

US Market and UK 996 GT3 price analysis 21 jan 2018.docx

@smit2100   you two must be related      , love it @On the Limit

 

[smit2100]

12 minutes ago, symsy said:

@smit2100   you two must be related      , love it @On the Limit

 

Nah.   numbers and word files don't mix  e.g. where is the excel file  .  Forget the tables.  Graph with labels me thinks e.g. picture gives you the trend .

[Troubleshooter]

I admire your endeavour OTL, and is interesting to see how much we get gouged on new car cost but doesn't change the usual that they get advertised at around 150000 give or take, and sell somewhere there or just below give or take - and have done for a year or 2 and will most probably continue for another year or two -- interesting work though

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22 minutes ago, symsy said:

@smit2100   you two must be related      , love it @On the Limit

 

Nope Symsy, not one mention of the word boost

[symsy]

11 minutes ago, smit2100 said:

Nah.   numbers and word files don't mix  e.g. where is the excel file  .  Forget the tables.  Graph with labels me thinks e.g. picture gives you the trend .

Man the right numbers 996 Come on ..

[bear924]

Great share, thank you OTL. I find it interesting how all the Aus. cars are in the top 1/3 of the uk pricing, however certainly within the established uk selling band. Then comparing the new car prices and the % of initial purchase price, our cars look like a bargain. I have a view that as Porsches age, the international price becomes an important factor in local pricing, more so than initial purchase price. This then suggests that the major value loses with new Australian Porsches probably happen in the first ~10 years of ownership as the 'Aussie Porsche tax' is depreciated and the actual international value is established.  

I do generally find it interesting how pricing in the UK market tends to be a little different to ours. Seems 993 are less loved there at the moment for example. This becomes more relevant once you start considering the proposed rolling 25 year rule which would allow 993 era cars to be imported in the next few years.

[On the Limit]

Once I've got about 6 months of data I'll graph it and post again.  A picture is worth a thousand words as they say.  

[MezgerMan]

On 14/01/2018 at 5:45 PM, Windsor289 said:

Just for the record (again) _ rare as!

 

Which commentator said what after the release of the 6.1 that convinced so many more buyers to opt for the Touring spec 6.2?! It's a significant shift in the stats.