Jump to content

3.2 Carrera Market Watch


Recommended Posts

I've concluded that the 3.2 is one model where the "Oz delivery premium" makes no sense at all.  To me the "pick of the litter" is an 87-89 UK car with the 930.20/26 engine . . . full 231 bhp, G50 and the better AC.  Well, actually the Club Sport is my true pick of litter, but at £160,000 for a good one I may have missed the boat. 

For me the pick of the litter is my Aus delivered 85 930/26 231bhp 915 equipped car for the full experience ! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Talking about sunroof delete.........

So as you all know, my car is a dirty import and converted to RHD, even though there is a pretty good back story to that. As such, it is worth significantly less than an Oz delivered equivalent.

I am doing some hot rod mods, but my philosophy is to keep all the parts and ensure it can be returned to original. The one thing that bugs me is the sunroof and i would love to remove it and the weight it has so high up on the car. People who know me and my driving say I will be able to tell the difference, but it also gets rid of a number of issues that you can have with a sunroof. I also like the look of cars with no headlining and simply something suitable glued to the skin so that you aren't in a "tin can".

The question is, what impact does deleting the sunroof have to the value. My gut feel is that it makes zero difference, but is that just wishful thinking? It goes against my "return to original" concept.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Talking about sunroof delete.........

So as you all know, my car is a dirty import and converted to RHD, even though there is a pretty good back story to that. As such, it is worth significantly less than an Oz delivered equivalent.

I am doing some hot rod mods, but my philosophy is to keep all the parts and ensure it can be returned to original. The one thing that bugs me is the sunroof and i would love to remove it and the weight it has so high up on the car. People who know me and my driving say I will be able to tell the difference, but it also gets rid of a number of issues that you can have with a sunroof. I also like the look of cars with no headlining and simply something suitable glued to the skin so that you aren't in a "tin can".

The question is, what impact does deleting the sunroof have to the value. My gut feel is that it makes zero difference, but is that just wishful thinking? It goes against my "return to original" concept.

My 2c: Zero difference in a lefty->righty car.  The car will always be judged on price alone, not options list correctness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

+1. It's been converted, the critics will already be unhappy, do what you want to it! 

Not sure you can do what you want. At the moment with the spec it is and the history, I have a queue of people wanting to buy it off me. I believe it would be easier to sell than any oz delivered car because there are a fair number of people looking to get into Porsche ownership but who cannot or won't pay the value of an Oz delivered car. Because there are less imports and of those, many have been modified to less than desirable specs, when a car with good providence and a good spec comes on the market, those who don't have Oz delivery money are all over it.

If I do whatever i want to it, the chances are that it would lose the desirability that comes from being able to by a 3.2 for something like $40k less than an Oz delivered car, while the cars are essentially the same. Small, reversible things seem to be OK, but I am trying to understand where the boundary between acceptable and unacceptable is. We see modified imports come up reasonably often that stay on the market for years. 

I believe that body kits and engine changes are out. I also accept that unless you get it absolutely spot on, anything more than minor styling changes will never see the money back. Well sorted and upgraded suspension and brakes seem OK, fitting an RS style interior also seems Ok so long as you have the original but the thing I have never seen tested is the desirability of more engine power. Removing the sunroof on an oz delivered car hits the value, but I am not sure it does on an import.

I hope i don't need to sell for a long time, but when I do, i don't want ine of those cars that takes months (or longer) to sell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personal opinion here I know, but I'd deliberately avoid a 911 without a sunroof, purely because I think the additional ventilation on a warm day makes them more useable here in Oz. Even with effective AC (bloody rare in a 911), the additional cooling offered by the roof would be a must have for me. I'm less concerned about the LHD or a converted car but a prerequisite is a sunroof. Having driven an SC sans sunroof on a 28+ degree day to Bendigo and back, it was bloody uncomfortable given the dash vents are so small. Windows down was ok, but noisy and I often find an open sunroof is quite quiet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've concluded that the 3.2 is one model where the "Oz delivery premium" makes no sense at all.  To me the "pick of the litter" is an 87-89 UK car with the 930.20/26 engine . . . full 231 bhp, G50 and the better AC.  Well, actually the Club Sport is my true pick of litter, but at £160,000 for a good one I may have missed the boat. 

That is the model I bought, an '88 ex-UK matching numbers, though no AC. The UK 3.2s are also optioned up with the factory sports seats (Recaros) which is a nice add-on as well!

As per Mike-S above, I too wanted a sunroof as prerequisite for the air-in-the-cabin feel, noting though that I am not a track guy and am not overly fussed around weight reduction.

Cheers

Craig

Edited by crsedge
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting view, Mike. I would have thought that with the roof open, you are "condemned" to having the same cabin temperature as the outside. So if it is 28 degrees outside, it will be 28 degrees inside. If you have a/c, it will never work properly with a constant supply of freshly heated air replacing the cooled air in the cockpit. Even with the small vents on my early 3.2, with 28 degrees outside, I can easily get the inside temperature down to 22-23 degrees. With 37 degrees outside, the inside was 26-27 degrees and enough cold air aimed at me to make things pretty bearable. Surely the last thing I would want to do is open anything so that heated outside air can get in.

I guess it comes down to how good your a/c is. Contrary to popular belief, when new, the Porsche a/c while not great was actually adequate. Over time and without being cared for, it just gets worse and worse. I am not actually sure why  people accept that with a 30+ year old car you need to maintain and replace parts such as hoses and maybe even oil coolers, or fit better ones, but with the a/c, they think that all they should need to do is charge it up! Give your a/c the same love as you give the rest of the car and it will be more than adequate and if you really want cool, there are some good alternatives that replace the original gear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is the model I bought, an '88 ex-UK matching numbers, though no AC. The UK 3.2s are also optioned up with the factory sports seats (Recaros) which is a nice add-on as well!

As per Mike-S above, I too wanted a sunroof as prerequisite for the air-in-the-cabin feel, noting though that I am not a track guy and am not overly fussed around weight reduction.

Cheers

Craig

JUST cut a hole in the roof and get an aftermarket one put it.

Easy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This might be a new record . . . highest asking price for a privately owned 3.2?

Owner is asking $179,000 for a relatively low km (119,000) Aussie delivered super sport (M491).  It looks like a minter but I just can't see the market being there at $179k.

 

https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Porsche-911-Carrera-1987/SSE-AD-4346777/?Cr=7

 

HIGHLY SOUGHT – SELDOM FOUND

One of the most collectable 911’s on the market has now presented itself - The 3.2 Carrera Supersport or factory optioned Wide-body, produced from 1984 through to 1989. Known as option code M491, the costly wide body package wasn’t just cosmetic, offering aggressive wider wheel arches, rear spoiler and wider Fuchs wheels, it also included cross-drilled discs with four-piston aluminum calipers and suspension taken directly from the 930 Turbo. The option to upgrade to M491 didn’t come cheap with price premiums ranging from $20,000-$30,000 depending on the year of manufacture, which kept production numbers low, making genuine M491 equipped models incredibly hard to find and very collectable today.

Delivered new to Melbourne via Hamilton’s of South Yarra, this original right hand drive 3.2 Carrera Supersport, was ordered in Guards Red over Black leather interior and still presents itself in stunning condition, featuring the desirable G50 gearbox. Retaining its original and no expense spared factory options including Air conditioning, Full leather, Recoil bumpers, Heavy duty battery, Passenger side mirror, Eurovox radio cassette ( not fitted but provided ) Sports seats (driver and passenger) with electric height adjustment, Central locking system, and electric sun roof, this example is exceptionally well-appointed. In excellent condition as you would expect from a car with such low mileage, it might arguably be the best in Australia.

All telltale signs show just how well this car has been maintained from the mint condition Fuchs wheels wrapped in near new tires, through to the pristine stitching within the original leather sports seats. The drive is also phenomenal - well balanced with characteristic 3.2 litre torque and the spine tingling air-cooled soundtrack from the rear. One of just 269 right hand drive Wide-body coupes produced worldwide, rarely are these cars found in such original condition and even less often are they made available to own and drive. With both local and international interest beginning to soar, if there was ever a time to invest in a rare Porsche, this example without a doubt presents a very sound acquisition.

This car comes with its original document wallet and all its service and maintenance handbooks. 2 sets of keys, which include 1 spare with the original keyhead. The original jack with the correct decals. The original date stamped spare wheel with paper tag. The original compressor The complete tool kit & roll. The original spare wheel bag & paper Porsche gloves.

911-491 Plates not included

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's been for sale a llllllllllllllllloooooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggggggggggggggg time Nick and is a great example of the difference between an asking and an a selling price.

So what exactly are you trying to tell us Pete?? ........  :ph34r: 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure you can do what you want. At the moment with the spec it is and the history, I have a queue of people wanting to buy it off me. I believe it would be easier to sell than any oz delivered car because there are a fair number of people looking to get into Porsche ownership but who cannot or won't pay the value of an Oz delivered car. Because there are less imports and of those, many have been modified to less than desirable specs, when a car with good providence and a good spec comes on the market, those who don't have Oz delivery money are all over it.

If I do whatever i want to it, the chances are that it would lose the desirability that comes from being able to by a 3.2 for something like $40k less than an Oz delivered car, while the cars are essentially the same. Small, reversible things seem to be OK, but I am trying to understand where the boundary between acceptable and unacceptable is. We see modified imports come up reasonably often that stay on the market for years. 

I believe that body kits and engine changes are out. I also accept that unless you get it absolutely spot on, anything more than minor styling changes will never see the money back. Well sorted and upgraded suspension and brakes seem OK, fitting an RS style interior also seems Ok so long as you have the original but the thing I have never seen tested is the desirability of more engine power. Removing the sunroof on an oz delivered car hits the value, but I am not sure it does on an import.

I hope i don't need to sell for a long time, but when I do, i don't want ine of those cars that takes months (or longer) to sell.

I find this suprising Simon, unless the car is super cheaply priced.  At what price point are people interested in it?  I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer I just find it odd given how hard it appears to be to sell a converted car.

Another point worth considering is the value attributed to $'s spent.  In my experience, big ticket items like resprays, engine rebuilds, gearbox rebuilds etc improve the value of Aust/rhd etc cars but do little to the value of converted - its as if the mere mention of converted orverides anything else (condition etc).  I think this might be linked back to the buyer's pool mentioned earlier - ie the people prepared to spend up to get something special aren't in the mix. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find this suprising Simon, unless the car is super cheaply priced.  At what price point are people interested in it?  I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer I just find it odd given how hard it appears to be to sell a converted car.

Another point worth considering is the value attributed to $'s spent.  In my experience, big ticket items like resprays, engine rebuilds, gearbox rebuilds etc improve the value of Aust/rhd etc cars but do little to the value of converted - its as if the mere mention of converted orverides anything else (condition etc).  I think this might be linked back to the buyer's pool mentioned earlier - ie the people prepared to spend up to get something special aren't in the mix. 

Without wishing to discuss exact figures, as I said above, the sort of level we are talking about is something like $40k less than it would sell for as an Oz delivered car, or about a 3rd less. Besides it being a really good spec and people liking the modifications done (suspension, ride height etc), you also need to know the back story, which is why people like the car. First there is the conversion, done by the Porsche factory which is rare (actually the only one I can find out about). Then, for the last 14 years, it has been maintained by PR Technology and had a lot spent on it. PR then bought it for themselves and one of the directors used it. It's had the gearbox rebuilt, good leak down numbers and nothing to worry about on the PPI. The funny thing is that it has a certain level of patina which people seem to like, because they feel they can actually use it without worrying about anything. overall, there is a degree of honesty about the car you don't always see in cars like this.

Every time I mention I am thinking about buying another car, I get offers. I also get regular pm's and phone calls from people asking advice on car because they are looking for 3.2's for around $80k, which they realise means an import or converted car, but that is their budget and they don't want earlier cars (even SC's). The problem is that many imports and converted cars have rather dodgy histories, so price alone isn't enough to sell them.

I also disagree that engine and gearbox rebuilds add very much value to any car. I haven't spotted any difference in price between a good car with low leak down numbers and one with a rebuilt engine. Same with the gearbox, although an average 915 will drag the value down. i would suggest that most of the cars that have sold for top end money by tghe likes of CTS and Duttons haven't had rebuilds.

But what really determines the price is the market and it rarely gets it that wrong. We can have our views and prejudices and these infuence what we think of the market. If you are in the Oz delivered camp and are suspicious of converted cars, you probably aren't in a good position to say what somebody who is OK with imports and converted cars will pay. Same the other way around. I am probably not the best person to be valuing top end Oz delivered cars.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm selling it on behalf of a friend and thats the price he had in his mind 

I'm sure he'd negotiate - I think the feeding frenzy for Porsches has definitely subsided though

I would have to agree with you, I think the market has come off in the last couple of months.

Of course he is entitled to ask what he wants for the car, but the reality is, if he wants to sell it, then he would have to reduce the asking price substantially.

I recently sold my Concours winning 3.2 Carrera prior to the "dip", but should I be selling it now, I would have had to reduce the asking price.

 

Cheers,

Geoff.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I would have to agree with you, I think the market has come off in the last couple of months.

Of course he is entitled to ask what he wants for the car, but the reality is, if he wants to sell it, then he would have to reduce the asking price substantially.

I recently sold my Concours winning 3.2 Carrera prior to the "dip", but should I be selling it now, I would have had to reduce the asking price.

 

Cheers,

Geoff.

 

Was yours the Red one at Rennsport that was like new?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Without wishing to discuss exact figures, as I said above, the sort of level we are talking about is something like $40k less than it would sell for as an Oz delivered car, or about a 3rd less. Besides it being a really good spec and people liking the modifications done (suspension, ride height etc), you also need to know the back story, which is why people like the car. First there is the conversion, done by the Porsche factory which is rare (actually the only one I can find out about). Then, for the last 14 years, it has been maintained by PR Technology and had a lot spent on it. PR then bought it for themselves and one of the directors used it. It's had the gearbox rebuilt, good leak down numbers and nothing to worry about on the PPI. The funny thing is that it has a certain level of patina which people seem to like, because they feel they can actually use it without worrying about anything. overall, there is a degree of honesty about the car you don't always see in cars like this.

Every time I mention I am thinking about buying another car, I get offers. I also get regular pm's and phone calls from people asking advice on car because they are looking for 3.2's for around $80k, which they realise means an import or converted car, but that is their budget and they don't want earlier cars (even SC's). The problem is that many imports and converted cars have rather dodgy histories, so price alone isn't enough to sell them.

I also disagree that engine and gearbox rebuilds add very much value to any car. I haven't spotted any difference in price between a good car with low leak down numbers and one with a rebuilt engine. Same with the gearbox, although an average 915 will drag the value down. i would suggest that most of the cars that have sold for top end money by tghe likes of CTS and Duttons haven't had rebuilds.

But what really determines the price is the market and it rarely gets it that wrong. We can have our views and prejudices and these infuence what we think of the market. If you are in the Oz delivered camp and are suspicious of converted cars, you probably aren't in a good position to say what somebody who is OK with imports and converted cars will pay. Same the other way around. I am probably not the best person to be valuing top end Oz delivered cars.

I'm not really in the aust delivered camp, despite owning a few.  I also mod/race/rally etc my cars.  I even once owned a converted car and currently own a 924 Porsche station wagon...  I just think they have a (very?) small buying pool.  Maybe that pool is getting bigger as prices rise (unless they have stopped rising - who knows?)

Your numbers work out to $80k (120 less 1/3 or 40k). That seems high for a converted car but who knows maybe your right?  I have no dog in the fight, just an opinion. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...