Tit-Wagon - 964C2

[Tit]

Finally got the firstmajor (20,000km) service since the top-end rebuild done yesterday.  We had ambitious plans, so didn't get everything completed that we wanted, but we still got the following done:

• Valve Adjustment (plus we put those lovely Rennline billet valve covers on!)
• ISV Clean
• Fuel, Oil, Air filters
• Distributor cap and rotor replacement
• New belts on fan and air-con
• Spark plugs
• Decent clean of the engine and 'bits'
• Rear brake-pad change
• Oil change - I've gone back to mineral (Penrite 20W-60)
• Ate Jame's freddo frogs...

Am happy we did this 'engine out' - made everything so much easier.  It was nice doing it in a proper shop, having access to a hoist, compressed air, oil-stands etc...I ran out of time to clean up that dirty engine fan, mainly because we determined the bearing and alternator were fine and didn't require replacing.

She runs a bit smoother now.   It's still a constant battle with leaks, we found a new weep on the crank-case ventilation an didn't have the gaskets to deal with that, so we tightened up and will deal with it next time...

Yes, we zip-tied those CV joints  up while we were working!

Lovely billet valve cover...but that engine tin is letting the team down!  Also, whenever I look at the exhaust, I dream of a stainless steel set up...so much cleaner!

There's still a few projects in the pipeline over the next 12 months:

• Install wing computer (yes! I still haven't done that)
• Repair leaky air-con and repatriate OEM hose onto the compressor
• Engine-out detail.  General clean-up, Powder-coat the engine tin, replace or powder-coat the engine fan and housing, steam-clean everything.  Thinking of replacing the bushings in the gearbox mounts as well.

[poli84]

I'd love to be able to drop the engine and do a service like this Tit, well done. You certainly get to know the engine a lot better by doing these things yourself and have it all out and in front of you. I need a friend with a shop, the tools and the skills to guide. Or maybe my mechanic will let me watch and pass tools one day.

[Tit]

I'd love to be able to drop the engine and do a service like this Tit, well done. You certainly get to know the engine a lot better by doing these things yourself and have it all out and in front of you. I need a friend with a shop, the tools and the skills to guide. Or maybe my mechanic will let me watch and pass tools one day.

Yep. I'm lucky my mechanic tolerates my lack of competence in his workshop!  I'm learning a lot working with him!

[Tit]

Not really that exciting, but this being my maintenance and modding log, I thought I'd put it here.

Have been doing some painting at home.  Reinforces my respect for those of you that can paint successfully at home...

The black parts of the bumpers and skirts were showing a few years of degredation, so I thought I'd re-paint them.  Followed the usual process.  Thoroughly cleaned the area, sanded it (800 and 1200), wax and grease remover, then primer, then bumper black. Used the repco stuff which turned out to be a bit less glossy than what was on there before. 

All taped covered up:

Satisfactory result...now I have to do the side-skirts...

[turboT]

 

All taped covered up:

 

bad experience with overspray in the past mate?

[Tit]

bad experience with overspray in the past mate?

Yeah, I got a bit carried away :P.  Actually. This was the only sheet I had. I had to tape it up and away to somewhere!

I've also been fiddling with a set of Cult-Werk Brake Ducts.  They are really nice quality pieces.  I prefer how the mounting screws are hidden as well.

For these, I made the mistake of mixing brands of primer with a different brand of paint.   I followed "good" procedure - pre-sand, wax and grease remover, put primer in hot water then shake for five min and lay on multiple light layers.  I thought it was all good, but when the grand-prix white undercoat went down it blistered when it dried:

Blistering - if you look closely at the bottom of the duct

So I had to sand it back down and try again...THREE TIMES! grr... this happened over the course of two weeks because I was trying to let the coats dry properly in case that was what was causing the blistering..

Finally, I did the gloss-coat.  They took three primer coats, four white coats, and four gloss coats.  Plus a bit of sanding and correction here and there.  They still need a polish and wax once the clear-coat has had a few days to dry.

(Next time I'll just pay someone who knows what they are doing...this took way too much time and rattle-can dizziness - Yes..I used breathing protection!)

I'll be pulling the bumper off soon to install these, fix the classic 964 'smile' and poor fitment of the black bodywork underneath the bumper.

Finally, I've just send a few thousand Aussie paesos overseas.  Hopefully, in return, I'll receive some suspension upgrades in time for Tassie... 

Edited 21January, 2017 by Tit

[Mike737]

 

Finally, I've just send a few thousand Aussie paesos overseas.  Hopefully, in return, I'll receive some suspension upgrades in time for Tassie... 

KW V3's?

[Tit]

KW V3's?

V1's.  I'm not likely to fiddle with settings.  I've got V1's on the mini, and had ST's (KW Valving and springs) on the golf and am very happy with them.  Other than the rebound/damping settings, everything about the 964 V1's are identical to the V3's.  I couldn't justify the extra $$.  In that $ gap, I shoved monoball camber plates and a carbon strut brace...I considered thicker sway-bars, but I thought I'd see how the coil-overs go before I start messing with the under/over-steer...plus a more agressive alignment might get me what I'm after, handling wise.

This is, of course, going to take several weeks to arrive.  In the meantime, the car will be residing at my mechanics house while he sorts out the aircon and possibly the spoiler (he's an auto-electrician by trade). 

[Mike D'Silva]

Curious... what is the purpose of buying coilovers? I'm not a suspension person so I just put Bilstein HD and H&R springs in mine.. 

Can you dial in much better handling with cooilovers?

[Mike737]

Curious... what is the purpose of buying coilovers? I'm not a suspension person so I just put Bilstein HD and H&R springs in mine.. 

Can you dial in much better handling with cooilovers?

Yes you can dial in things, particularly when you're lowering the car further which can be great if you're trying to get the CoG lower to the ground. If it's at standard height you probably wouldn't get much out of it other than adjusting the ride so it becomes a bit softer or harsher if you weren't a fan of the standard ride.

[Tit]

Curious... what is the purpose of buying coilovers? I'm not a suspension person so I just put Bilstein HD and H&R springs in mine.. 

Can you dial in much better handling with cooilovers?

 Depends what you get. It's mainly about adjustability. You can get coil overs with, height rebound and damping control. Plus some have remote resovoirs for more temperature and damping control.

I like KW oem spring rates and damping. Plus the stainless steel bodies are nice. I'm trying to tighten up the handling, so putting on monoball strut tops will also help. Adjustable camber plates will give me some more camber at the front, too.

At the moment, my RS assignment settings are still too neutral for my tastes. I'm mainly looking for sharper turn in and a little less understeer.

btw, the bilstein hd and h&r doing combo is essentially a bespoke coilover equivalent to KW v1s. I think they have adjustable height on the shock bodies?

Edited 22January, 2017 by Tit

[MFX]

Blistering - if you look closely at the bottom of the duct

So I had to sand it back down and try again...THREE TIMES! grr... this happened over the course of two weeks because I was trying to let the coats dry properly in case that was what was causing the blistering..

 

Finally, I did the gloss-coat.  They took three primer coats, four white coats, and four gloss coats.  Plus a bit of sanding and correction here and there.  They still need a polish and wax once the clear-coat has had a few days to dry.

 

If you start to get that blistering, the best way to get around it, is as soon as you see it start. Let it dry, then do several very light dust coats, letting them thoroughly dry in between. Once it is covered then you can start working up to slightly heavier coats. It is always a pain in the ass though, and it is so tempting to just keep putting more paint on it, only to watch it get worse.

Edited 22January, 2017 by MFX

[Tit]

If you start to get that blistering, the best way to get around it, is as soon as you see it start. Let it dry, then do several very light dust coats, letting them thoroughly dry in between. Once it is covered then you can start working up to slightly heavier coats. It is always a pain in the ass though, and it is so tempting to just keep putting more paint on it, only to watch it get worse.

 That's kinda what I did. I think it was either the awkward angle I was spraying into that 'tube' or mismatched primer and base coat. I was putting the cans in hot water, lots of shaking and light coats.

[MFX]

 That's kinda what I did. I think it was either the awkward angle I was spraying into that 'tube' or mismatched primer and base coat. I was putting the cans in hot water, lots of shaking and light coats.

Spraying into a tube like that is always hard work.

[Tit]

oh...hello...

[Tit]

Getting ready for the Tassie trip provides a good excuse to get some upgrades sorted out!

Suspension

Namely, finally get some refreshed suspension in the car!

I’m a KW fanboy, and admittedly didn’t really consider any alternatives. I’ve had KW in two of my other cars and love the product.  For this car, I went with V1’s because I know I’ll never really fiddle with the rebound and compression settings once the car is set.  I’ve also got a set of Rennline camber-plates and a carbon strut-brace to top it all off in the front end.

Now, when I was doing my research, some things weren’t clear to me - such as - I’d read that the KW V1’s and V3’s for the early 964’s (pre ’92) come with mono-ball top-mounts on the rear struts.

Guess what; they do!  Bonus!

So that saved the expensive of buying additional mono-ball top-mounts for the rear. :thumbup:

Now. Some of you might wonder about NVH with mono-balls in a street car.  For me, this is a fun weekend car and I’m fine with that risk.  Also, the top-mount bushings were pretty old in my car, so they needed replacing either way.

My other car is a 2010 JCW mini, with KW’s and camber-plates.  That thing is the proverbial go-kart.  Which makes the 964 feel a bit mushy in comparison. So again, I welcome the firmness of the mono-balls.

The Products

Rennline Mono-ball top-mounts and Camber-plates:

KW V1’s

Sorry - didn’t get a pre-install photo of the strut brace.

The Install

First of all, I had to ‘build-up’ the suspension parts. Mainly the camber plates and then mate them to the front coilovers.  This was pretty straight forward. I read a few threads about interference between the plate and the struts when deflected.  The shaft of the strut isn’t a long as I would have liked. 

So, when assembling the plates, I used the 6mm spacers (the ‘step bushing’ in the diagram below) on bottom and top, and an additional 6mm to try get the clearance for strut deflection.  Don’t forget to set the bottom spacer in with the dust boot.  I also used loctite on all of the nuts and bolts.

Here’s Rennline’s install instructions borrowed from another thread on RL:

Yes! There’s two spacers in there!  I deflected the struts as far as possible, and they didn’t touch the base of the plate or the dust boot.

Also, that top nut is 26mm deep, so most of the nut is on the thread...

Some threads that helped me for the rennine plates:
http://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/812465-anyone-running-kws-with-rennline-camber-plates.html
http://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/756208-installing-rennline-camber-plates-some-questions.html
http://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/752739-solid-sides-and-monoball-tops-noise.html?referrerid=93689

Once that was all assembled, next I had to start getting the old gear out of the car.  I found these threads helpful (noting that the are 993, there are some similarities):

http://p-car.com/diy/sus/
http://www.jackals-forge.com/lotus/993/993_suspension.html

Rear Suspension

I found the rears more difficult than the fronts.  In the rear, you have to get the heater blower out on the left side of the car, and the airbox out on the right side of the car. 

First you have to undo the rear sway-bar.  No need to fiddle with the drop links, just undo the bushed mounts on the body of the car:

Undoing the top-nuts was a giant pain as they were difficult to access, but got it done..

Rear Right:

Rear Left:

Then undo the bolt going to the trailing arm.  This is torqued to 200NM, so you’ll need a long breaker bar:

That’s it, really.  With a bit of patience, it should all come out:

When you’re putting it all back in, you’ll need another person.  Someone down on the ground positioning the strut, and someone up top guiding the top-mount bolts into their respective holes and getting the nuts on.  I found lightly putting in the trailing-arm bolt and using a jack to move the whole assembly up was helpful.  With a bit of colourful language it is possible.  Beware the mono-ball deflecting, making it hard to position the bolts!

In!

Don’t forget to torque everything up.  My torque wrench only goes up to 150NM, so my alignment guy will have to help me out there (and on the front suspension torquing as well).   I also used nickel anti-seize on all the bolts.

Front Suspension

I found the front’s less difficult, except for dremelling out the brake-line bracket.  This was ok, as the old struts were ready for the bin anyway.  As with the rear, there aren’t that many bolts.  Undo all the cable holders and cut the brake line bracket open to get the line out.  The assembly should come out no problem:

Everything out:

You might note that I set the suspension at maximum height. Not sure why I did that….but will get to setting the height later…

So, now you transfer the electrical and brake line connections over to the new struts and install:

There was some kind of thick double-sided tape between the old strut tops and the body of the car.  When I removed the old suspension, some of it tore away.  I added some additional double-sided tape to fill the gaps. I assume this was to prevent NVH and keep junk out of the trunk area…

I tried to match the camber plates.  I’m not going to drive the car much until it gets aligned…

Rinse and repeat for the other side of the car.  Then I put on the strut brace.  The previous owner installed this stereo amp. I’d like to remove it, but that’s a project for another time. For now, the brace goes nicely between the amp and fuel-tank sender.

Setting Ride Height

To set the ride height, I looked around for RS specs.  There were a few threads, but used this one:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/243754-good-ride-height-my-964-c2.html

Carrera RS spec
V=125mm
H=218mm

ROW Spec
V=165mm
H=258mm

I basically measured the distance from the floor to those points, then measured the current height setting on the coil-over sleeve.  Then I subtracted the amount that would get me those ‘V’ and ‘H’ measurements to get the sleeve height on the strut body.  I understand that the suspension would settle, but I assumed that a factory height setting wouldn’t be too crazy.   I was wrong.  The rear tires were tucking! I double checked this, and in the end, I added 20mm either side on the rears to get a visually equivalent wheel gap front to rear.  The car now sits with a slight bit of rake, but it’s not too bad.  

Looks the same as before!

I’ve taken the car around the local suburbs, and the difference is night at day (noting that the alignment still needs to be set).  Everything is firmer, the steering is a lot lighter and the turn-in is improved quite a bit.  I’m looking forward to the alignment!!

Sparco Seat

For tassie, I’ve temporarily installed a Sparco Evo 2 that has previously served time as my office chair.  I’ve owned this seat for years, and it has been in two of my previous minis as well.  It’s quite comfortable.  I’ve used a generic Recaro runner and the old side-mounts that are with the seat. 

I had to drill a new hole in the side-mounts to fit the belt buckle. There is very little space between the seat and the centre tunnel.  Everything else was generally predictable:

Lots of spare change under that seat!  You’ll note the absence of a spoiler computer, which is a project I’d like to complete this year:

The standard seat will go back in after the Tassmania trip…

[KGB]

I don't know...can you get those dampers, like, in a more colorful version?

[Raven]

Yes you can .............

 

[tk111]

Nice project Tit!

who is doing the alignment for you?

[Tit]

Nice project Tit!

who is doing the alignment for you?

I know a guy in Philip. Used to be Craig Hall Mechanical (not the same company as the smash repairer). He's just moved to new digs - not sure if he's changed his name though.

[Tit]

Finally! I'm sorting out the spoiler and the aircon...this it he first part as the car is still in pieces.  Car will be off the road for probably four weeks in total, accounting for ordering parts once we've examined the bits and pieces we pull out.

Main goals:

- Get aircon working again

- Get spoiler working again

- Remove after-market stereo junk (except head unit)

Air-Con

Previously, at least under my ownership, this car has had a bunch of dye shoved through it looking for leaks, as well as the goo designed to plug small leaks.  We've looked at every part of the A/C under the blue-light for dye leaks and couldn't find anything. Ultimately, the last bit we couldn't see was the evaporator, TX valve, and the connections in the back of the frunk...  So it had to come out...

Luckily my mechanic has 20 years of air-con experience under his belt, so diagnosing this is all second nature for him...plus he's an auto-electrician by training, so that will help with un-mucking the damage caused by the stereo wiring as well as sorting out the spoiler.

Out comes the carpet, strut brace, the ghetto-mounted amp and also loosten up the fuse box:

Of course, I'd filled up the car a few weeks prior, and didn't drive it at all. So guess what...we had to drain an almost full fuel tank...

Finally, the fuel-tank came out...

I didn't take enough pictures at this point, or they sucked due to low light (so apologies for poor focus).  We had to go into the cabin and pull out the head-unit and CCU to get to the screws behind the evaporator 'suit-case' (technical term!). I also yanked out all of the recalcitrant stereo wiring that went back out to the amp.  We had to be careful to not damage the ancient heater ducts, as they also attached to the evap suit-case in the frunk...

Getting the Evap 'suit-case' out was a right PITA.  Because our steering column is on the same side as the fuse-box, there was quite a bit of faffing about getting it out.   All of the heater duct connections in the cabin had to be disconnected as well as the fresh-air duct from under the windscreen.  It was a two person job, but we finally got it out..

And it's out on the bench to assess:

[Tit]

Some things we have noted in the process:

• The sins of previous stereo installers and mechanics were obvious.  
• Stereo - the amp was mounted with tec screws (F#@$@#), and they sika-flexed some of the cabling (rather than using a gromet) through the firewall.
• A/C - it looks like someone has previously had a go at this, and decided it was all too hard and just replaced the T/X valve. So the valve is brand-new, but on inspection, the evaporator is full of crud.  It is clearly leaking, as the A/C oil is all through the ducts.
• The heater fans ('squirrel cages') are out of true and a bit worn down, hence the squealing from the interior vents at certain fan speeds...

I have a whole pile of stuff on order from @JustJames , with more to come once we assess what is required.

Spoiler

This one has been a slow project. When I got the car, it had a heinous wing on it. The deck-lid it has now, is actually off @JV911 's mighty 964 RS4.  I had it painted GPW, but hadn't gotten around to making the spoiler work, as the spoiler ECU under  the driver's seat was missing.  I finally got hold of an ECU and my mechanic wired up the motor and everything.  AND IT WORKS!! WOOOO!!!

Just need a spoiler-curtain and to make sure it's properly calibrated on the micro-switches (extension and retraction limits), make sure all of the mechanisms are lubricated, and we should be good to go.  

One thing I did learn was that as my car is an early 964, it had a different part number (964 618 212 00), from the newer (>'91) models (964 618 142 00). But the later ECU does work.  In later cars, the ECU was under the dash, not the right-hand side seat...

Here's a related TSB: https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/248171-spoiler-control-module-pn.html

The module as it arrived in it's parcel...

Sorry for the terrible photos!

[ANF]

Well done, looks like you are getting on top of it

One of my previous. Mercs the stereo head unit was held in with silicone and nothing else.. 

[Tit]

3 minutes ago, ANF said:

Well done, looks like you are getting on top of it

One of my previous. Mercs the stereo head unit was held in with silicone and nothing else.. 

urgh...stereo installers...

I'm looking at this amp, to mount under the dash or seat to go with a Kienzle head unit:

https://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/p/RetroSound-QUAD4-Amplifier/RetroSound+Quadraphonic+Amplifier

https://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/p/Kienzle-Car-Radio-CR1225DAB/Kienzle+CR+1225+DAB+Bluetooth+Car+Radio

 

Stereo is a project for next year. I'd like to do all of the speakers, head unit and amp.  I also have an original head unit, but I think I'd like the blue-tooth/USB stuff for long trips...

[Peter M]

Good work Tit!

Could I suggest you take some photos of the evaporator case before you split it so you know which orientation the actuator arms are and you have to do less headscratching.  I wish I had taken some at the time.....

I also found Jaycar self adhesive sound absorption foam good for making new seals and gaskets to replace the old seals that have long turned to dust.  Usually the seals are on the internal vent flaps.