964 Market Watch

[Andy73]

17 minutes ago, Rick V said:

Great looking cars, and not wanting to offend anyone, but when I see this sort of thing I can’t help but think what an absolute bargain my 996.2 GT3 was..... and still are.

 I appreciate that in some ways I’m comparing apples & oranges, but the price differential amazes me.

But then I’m old enough to remember how hated the 964 was for such a long time.

You’re right on both counts. 996.2 GT3 is bloody great value. What a weapon. 

But you’re also right - it’s an apples and oranges comparison. If values were only a representation of performance, I’d probably be driving a WRX. So much comes down to irrational considerations. For me, it was the 964 being the current shape when I really started to obsess about all things Porsche. I never lost that love and when the time came, a 964 became the only choice for me. 

 

1 hour ago, symsy said:

White a colour hated for so long but really the stayer  hey 😀

Yellow calipers and E88’s with black centers and that thing would look perfect!

[hugh]

3 hours ago, Rick V said:

Great looking cars, and not wanting to offend anyone, but when I see this sort of thing I can’t help but think what an absolute bargain my 996.2 GT3 was..... and still are.

 I appreciate that in some ways I’m comparing apples & oranges, but the price differential amazes me.

But then I’m old enough to remember how hated the 964 was for such a long time.

Yes, apples & oranges in many ways but there are comparisons that can be made. 

I’d regard the 964 as the best of the old 911’s, old school but with a touch of new school. 

996 is the best of the new stuff. New school but still with a touch of old school. 

Obviously the simplified version but hopefully you get what I mean. Each bridge a gap in era, just in different ways. 

 

[Harold996tt]

6 hours ago, Troubleshooter said:

I know it was a thing but why was the 964 hated?

Because they weren't fully developed cars being done when Porsche had no money. Hence the fat bumpers and nothing else much done to make the car better looks wise (subjective). Car still didn't handle great, 4wd version was over complicated. It was deemed not enough of anything at the time. 

6 hours ago, Rick V said:

Great looking cars, and not wanting to offend anyone, but when I see this sort of thing I can’t help but think what an absolute bargain my 996.2 GT3 was..... and still are.

 I appreciate that in some ways I’m comparing apples & oranges, but the price differential amazes me.

But then I’m old enough to remember how hated the 964 was for such a long time.

Was thinking of adding back another 964 coupe to the garage but prices are not aligned with my views on the 964. And having owned one through the era when the 964 was reviled as much as the 996 is today, I can't ever justify spending so high on a 964 (unless it's a Speedster or a special model). And when thinking about where the real value is today... Your car is it. New school with enough old school and genuine rarity. Will wait till 964s get back to below 993s before I get back into one. And if they don't, will just live with the 964 cab. Or buy a 996 GT3. 

[Zelrik911]

6 hours ago, Troubleshooter said:

I know it was a thing but why was the 964 hated?

3 things I recall:

bad reputation for leaking oil - even newish cars

Twitchy handling - even on the  C2

battery draining voltage leaks - couldnt be relied on to start in the morning

All b/s; but that was the reputation. 

[Rick V]

Many great comments and a fair discussion by all.  Whilst I went from an ‘85 Carrera to my 996, I can certainly appreciate where the 964 fits into the continued evolution of the legend that is Porsche 911.

I didn’t want to hijack the thread to being a 964 Vs 996 argument, so I’ll bugger off back to the ‘996 GT3 Market Watch’  thread, and leave you 964 lovin’ guys to enjoy & discuss all things 964.  

Ultimately if it has a Porsche badge, I‘m a fan, except maybe the 914 (sorry, couldn’t help myself!) 👍

[Andy73]

32 minutes ago, Rick V said:

Many great comments and a fair discussion by all.  Whilst I went from an ‘85 Carrera to my 996, I can certainly appreciate where the 964 fits into the continued evolution of the legend that is Porsche 911.

I didn’t want to hijack the thread to being a 964 Vs 996 argument, so I’ll bugger off back to the ‘996 GT3 Market Watch’  thread, and leave you 964 lovin’ guys to enjoy & discuss all things 964.  

Ultimately if it has a Porsche badge, I‘m a fan, except maybe the 914 (sorry, couldn’t help myself!) 👍

Haha. It’s always a fair point with the valuations mate. Like I said, doesn’t always make rational sense. 

For me it’s simple. Just always wanted one. I loved the styling from day one and always will. Love how well they take to customizing too. 

Oh here’s mine!

[Mike D'Silva]

1 hour ago, Zelrik911 said:

3 things I recall:

bad reputation for leaking oil - even newish cars

Twitchy handling - even on the  C2

battery draining voltage leaks - couldnt be relied on to start in the morning

All b/s; but that was the reputation. 

Not sure about the handling but yes, the battery draining and oil leaks are real things, even on newish cars. As you know, first lot didn't have headgaskets, and the fact that Porsche issued a TSB for upgrading them to a headgasket, suggests that there was indeed, a decent problem with them. Second gen 964 came standard with head gaskets. And I have personally experienced the battery draining on my old auto 964.. turns out it was the clock.. all it needed was the pins re-soldering (or soddering if you are a 'Merican) and it was fine after that. (till the next issue).

 

58 minutes ago, Andy73 said:

Haha. It’s always a fair point with the valuations mate. Like I said, doesn’t always make rational sense. 

For me it’s simple. Just always wanted one. I loved the styling from day one and always will. Love how well they take to customizing too. 

Oh here’s mine!

Nice stance.. what susension and spring mods did you make to achieve that?

 

[Andy73]

2 hours ago, Mike D'Silva said:

Nice stance.. what susension and spring mods did you make to achieve that?

 

Nothing too dramatic. Running on Bilstein PSS10 Coilovers. Hasn’t been an easy relationship with them but I’ve got them in a good place now. Softer springs for slightly better compliance and sitting slightly lower than RS (it’s pretty low but I love it looking that way). Camber has also been tweaked to get that stance. 

Some more change on the way too...😉

[LeeM]

9 hours ago, hugh said:

 

I’d regard the 964 as the best of the old 911’s, old school but with a touch of new school. 

996 is the best of the new stuff. New school but still with a touch of old school. 

  As usual, Hugh has the answer. I've never been a fan of the 964 bumpers, as they look too plasticy. Been told they're great to drive though.

 Which begs the question. If you had the decision to only grab a 996 GT3 or a 964, what would you buy? Hands down a GT3 for me

[Harold996tt]

1 hour ago, LeeM said:

  As usual, Hugh has the answer. I've never been a fan of the 964 bumpers, as they look too plasticy. Been told they're great to drive though.

 Which begs the question. If you had the decision to only grab a 996 GT3 or a 964, what would you buy? Hands down a GT3 for me

The bumpers were actually something I always liked alot together with the side skirts even if a bit incongruous. For me they are great cars and the perfect modernish old school Porsche.... Especially in wide body form. Gorgoeus to look at. 

But faced with the question... The 964 to my eyes lost its value the day it priced itself into 993 territory. Its just nonsensical given what we know of the 964 and what it used to be considered to so called Porsche experts (heck I sold my 964 coupe back when it was like trying to sell ice to an Eskimo... Or is that selling a 996 to a Porsche expert today.. Bugger it). 

Comparatively, to me, the 996 GT3 is rare by comparison to a C2 964, drives with a very old school feel to it (tail happy for sure but in a fun way) with zero driver aids, with not too much power to kill you, and still small enough to position perfectly--I still cherish my one and only drive in one. And it's price level is still being dragged down by the continued hate for the 996.

Sort of like when the 964RS was undervalued because of the hate for the 964 when it was just an old car... 

Bear in mind the 996 GT3 mk 1 and 2 had just over 4,100 units made collectively. Not a lot in the grand scheme, when considering the 964 RS had around 2,400 units made.

When you think that a 996 GT3 goes for less than a 964 Carrera 2 (19,400 cars made) or 4 (13,300 cars produced give or take) currently....  I just feel my money may be safer in a 996 GT3 until the 964 comes back down to a more realistic price level. 

Just my two cents. But I love both.

[LeeM]

 Well put @Harold996tt

 I think you can say that about most air cooled Porsches with regards to pricing/values.

[Harold996tt]

1 hour ago, LeeM said:

 Well put @Harold996tt

 I think you can say that about most air cooled Porsches with regards to pricing/values.

True mate. The 996 GT3 is a bloody bargain compared to any air cooled currently. Its a hell of a lot of car for the money and anyone who buys into any air cooled 911 at current prices is more likely to lose money than someone who plonks their cash into a 996 GT3 long term. 

[Jason A]

5 hours ago, Harold996tt said:

Bear in mind the 996 GT3 mk 1 and 2 had just over 4,100 units made collectively. Not a lot in the grand scheme, when considering the 964 RS had around 2,400 units made.

When you think that a 996 GT3 goes for less than a 964 Carrera 2 (19,400 cars made) or 4 (13,300 cars produced give or take) currently....  I just feel my money may be safer in a 996 GT3 until the 964 comes back down to a more realistic price level. 

Probably in the wrong area, but such a great convo.

20% of GT3’s we’re Clubsport, so that the one you want

PS - I love 964’s, particularly the ones with wings

[symsy]

964 with a worked 3.8 or 4.0 and a suspension setup for me , ooh and a set of real nice sports seats and a bigger brakes  please then we are getting to it.

Mine is 99 percent stock but they do call to be played with and in terms of AC cars the 993 is much better handling .

They are for a weekender heaps and bounds ahead of a G series in terms of comfort, the chassis light years ahead and I feel offer more liveability if your a one car owner , especially if u got the female fun financial controller in the mix 

They are plenty capable in standard form in the mountains 😂 trust me I know I tested the S  M T arga theory 

That all said we rarely get to tax the tech capabilities of any of theses cars SC , 3.2s or 964s or 993s but we do love to compare .

As an addict of NA 8k plus cars with a further boost addiction , I will confess the 964 I thought I knew from forums and in my mind TOTALLY BLEW MY SOCKS OFF driving all weekend and impressed no end with the speedy drive, fun, smiles .  I repeat the fun that I had in this little vanilla baby in my last two drives outta Melbourne A+

PS real world I feel they they don’t leak oil (yet!), buy a trickle charger and C2 in the rain handles fine under pressure 

PPS Targas don’t even have scuttle shake or flex on the road , I challenge anyone to feel it ., it’s forum banter , I love a Targa with the roof off on an icy road 

Are they a 150k car ??? It is more like  most liveable vs most exciting is vey hard to compare 😆 when u got TT and GT        Options in that price arena , a question left open for more debate , for sure they are 100-150k if SC and 3.2s are 100k plus 

 

[symsy]

PPPs check out that carport .. future classic for sure , I know where you can get one organised ..

What price do I put on the Targa after I go for another spin? 

[JLD]

3 hours ago, symsy said:

PPPs check out that carport .. future classic for sure , I know where you can get one organised ..

What price do I put on the Targa after I go for another spin? 

Don’t sell the Targa yet, my ducks aren’t in line 

[reggiegums]

On 21/04/2019 at 12:41, hugh said:

Yes, apples & oranges in many ways but there are comparisons that can be made. 

I’d regard the 964 as the best of the old 911’s, old school but with a touch of new school. 

996 is the best of the new stuff. New school but still with a touch of old school. 

Obviously the simplified version but hopefully you get what I mean. Each bridge a gap in era, just in different ways. 

 

Love that reference.

[JLD]

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/Porsche-911-Carrera-1993/SSE-AD-5880520/?Cr=0

Jubilee 😍

[Stephen Tinker]

Pheeew... That well into and past 996 GT3 territory.

Its virtually up against that beautiful red 997 GT3 posted on the forum a couple of days ago by Mafia 88 for $198 k IIRC - and I know where my money would go if I was in the market...

[JLD]

21 minutes ago, Stephen Tinker said:

Pheeew... That well into and past 996 GT3 territory.

Its virtually up against that beautiful red 997 GT3 posted on the forum a couple of days ago by Mafia 88 for $198 k IIRC - and I know where my money would go if I was in the market...

True! The car is beautiful, not the price

[Stephen Tinker]

But the price of the 997 is beautiful compared with that particular 964 pricing - whether we can afford either is not so beautiful JLD......

[JLD]

1 hour ago, Stephen Tinker said:

But the price of the 997 is beautiful compared with that particular 964 pricing - whether we can afford either is not so beautiful JLD......

On my current budget, it is purely vehicular admiration 

[sam911]

On 02/05/2019 at 15:25, JLD said:

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/Porsche-911-Carrera-1993/SSE-AD-5880520/?Cr=0

Jubilee 😍

Does anyone know this car or the owner? Thanks

[bear924]

On 22/04/2019 at 07:40, Jason A said:

 

20% of GT3’s we’re Clubsport, so that the one you want

 

The vast majority of 996.1 GT3s were CS versions, so I wouldn't buy 6.1 CS purely for rarity.  My understanding is that with each successive version of GT3 there is a greater % of touring.

[Jason A]

19 hours ago, bear924 said:

The vast majority of 996.1 GT3s were CS versions, so I wouldn't buy 6.1 CS purely for rarity.  My understanding is that with each successive version of GT3 there is a greater % of touring.

@bear924 I should clarify, 20% of global production.

We did get a big allocation of CS in Aus, I suspect quite a few were dealer fitted. There are some telltale signs, such as air bags in door cards.

Each to their own, for me I would prefer the CS, but get the comfort spec as being more practical