991 GT3 Market watch

[luzzo]

On 21/06/2017 at 14:01, edgy said:

Well I am not in the market for it, but its an interesting one to watch right now! 991.1 GT3 is now starting to hit the market with price tags that begin with a 2. 

 

It's been a price ride for the 991.1 GT3,  It was news when the price dropped to start with a $2 in front, then it nearly broke into the $1's. 

Now is this one trying to reset the mark..?

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2015-porsche-911-gt3-991-auto-my15/SSE-AD-6097090/?Cr=0

 

 

Ps. Stunning looking GT3

[DJM]

Another newbie.  Ad copy says $330k but advertised price is $350k........whoops.  Last minute decision to chase a bit more.....?

2018 Porsche 911 GT3 991 Auto MY18

• Coupe
• 6cyl 4.0 L Petrol
• Automatic
• 16,589 km

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2018-porsche-911-gt3-991-auto-my18/SSE-AD-7190979

[SS 3]

10 hours ago, luzzo said:

It's been a price ride for the 991.1 GT3,  It was news when the price dropped to start with a $2 in front, then it nearly broke into the $1's. 

Now is this one trying to reset the mark..?

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2015-porsche-911-gt3-991-auto-my15/SSE-AD-6097090/?Cr=0

 

 

Ps. Stunning looking GT3

Had to do a double take with this originally thought it was a reasonably priced .2 - lovely car but !!

[HWY]

4 hours ago, Scott SS964 said:

Had to do a double take with this originally thought it was a reasonably priced .2 - lovely car but !!

Not too sure how heartbroken you'd be with $310 in the bank account.

[SS 3]

2 minutes ago, HWY said:

Not too sure how heartbroken you'd be with $310 in the bank account.

For the owner i'm sure they'd be in a much better position than having 310K in a 991.1 GT3

[edgy]

14 hours ago, luzzo said:

t's been a price ride for the 991.1 GT3,  It was news when the price dropped to start with a $2 in front, then it nearly broke into the $1's. 

Now is this one trying to reset the mark..?

One can always try... to actually achieve is another thing!

One thing the 991.1 will always have to deal with is the engine failure stigma!

I suspect when once the 10 year engine warranty runs out, and the aftermarket decides to re-invest in those more permanent fixes successfully .. we could see renewed interest? If not.. who knows? 

[NBTBRV8]

Given how many of the .1s currently for sale were all listed pre-covid at much cheaper prices, I think they will struggle given the asking prices.  At this price point I found most buyers were savvy to the .1 issues.

When you start getting the sub $200k offers the buyers are more aspirational and not as well versed in the .1, so I can't see them selling at the current prices.  I would argue that Covid has stopped the .1 depreciation and not increased their value like that of the .2s.

I guess if the owners can afford to sit on them then go for it.  However if they want to trade in at some point the dealers will offer them a lower price because they can see how long a car has sat on Carsales and the price changes.  That was one lesson I learnt the hard way as mine got a reputation by me asking one dealer for a trade in price.  I will never do that again and I would kill aging ads and create a brand new one at a cost (don't pause it).

[Shedpest]

On 24/04/2021 at 18:10, DJM said:

355k drive away now looks cheap compared to several in the 375-380k bracket

If that is the case my new neighbor just stole the .2 that stayed over at my house recently.

[wilson59]

26 minutes ago, Shedpest said:

If that is the case my new neighbor just stole the .2 that stayed over at my house recently.

A fair price is what sells a car so all involved happy . I know who did steal it 

I like this colour 

[SS 3]

Any Market Predictions?

I'll have a go for a bit of fun

991.1 Current asking prices will see a lot of owners that purchased their cars 3 + years ago put them to market seeking to take advantage of the Covid bounce in perceived value.

This will probaly do 2 things

1) saturate the market 

2) if the cars don't sell in the mid to high 2's (which I don't believe they will) the seller will be in the market and mentally wanting to sell; chasing buyers down a rabbit hole.

991.2 Values settled and bench marks were established in and around the high 2's for a PDK early 3's for a manual, sure there's a bounce but I can see a return to these prices next year as the 992's find homes. ATM I think a lot of demand for these cars is coming from those that don't want to shall out/wait for the new car and are impatient!!. The increase in price of the 992 doesn't mean that the 991.2 is worth the same bump.

992 It looks like the average price will be 430-440 drive away - its looks like a great car however its a lot of money for a 911GT3 meaning that its starting to compete with some very serious Supercars.

All in all its still a sellers market so my tip is if your a seller try and snap up one of the impatient buyers and if your're a buyer have a holiday until early next year.

All in fun

[wilson59]

7 minutes ago, Scott SS964 said:

Any predictions?

I'll have a go for a bit of fun

991.1 Current asking prices will see a lot of owners that purchased their cars 3 + years ago put them to market seeking to take advantage of the Covid bounce in perceived value.

This will probaly do 2 things

1) saturate the market 

2) if the cars don't sell in the mid to high 2's (which I don't believe they will) the seller will be in the market and mentally wanting to sell; chasing buyers down a rabbit hole.

991.2 Values settled and bench marks were established in and around the high 2's for a PDK early 3's for a manual, sure there's a bounce but I can see a return to these prices next year as the 992's find homes. ATM I think a lot of demand for these is coming from those that don't want to shall out/wait for the new car and are impatient. The increase in price of the 992 doesn't mean that the 991.2 is worth the same bump.

992 It looks like the average price will be 430-440 drive away - its looks like a great car however its a lot of money for a 911GT3 meaning that its starting to compete with some serious Supercars.

All in all its still a Sellars market so my tip is if your a seller try and snap up one of the impatient buyers and if your a buyer have a holiday until early next year.

All in fun

While I try to shy away from predictions I think you are correct on all points .  

[Shedpest]

 Is it time to get on the un-wanted 991.1 train.

 They can't even give this one away.

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2014-porsche-911-gt3-991-auto-my14/SSE-AD-6613618/?Cr=0

[wilson59]

1 minute ago, Shedpest said:

 Is it time to get on the un-wanted 991.1 train.

 They can't even give this one away.

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2014-porsche-911-gt3-991-auto-my14/SSE-AD-6613618/?Cr=0

It’s yellow 

[edgy]

35 minutes ago, wilson59 said:

It’s yellow 

Hall & Oates strike again... "I can't go for that... no, no, no" 

[wilson59]

36 minutes ago, edgy said:

Hall & Oates strike again... "I can't go for that... no, no, no" 

I was waiting for it 

[Stephen Tinker]

Educate me - I'm assuming that the advertised "G Series motor" fitted to this particular GT3 was the later upgraded engine installed because of an earlier failure of the original.

Do these G Series engines still suffer from the original problem or are you relatively safe buying a car like this - disregarding the Yellow colour of course?

At $225k it seems a bargain..... I mean, if that was a Metzger engined GT3, it would be barely run in @ 42,000km.

[wilson59]

18 minutes ago, Stephen Tinker said:

Educate me - I'm assuming that the advertised "G Series motor" fitted to this particular GT3 was the later upgraded engine installed because of an earlier failure of the original.

Do these G Series engines still suffer from the original problem or are you relatively safe buying a car like this - disregarding the Yellow colour of course?

At $225k it seems a bargain..... I mean, if that was a Metzger engined GT3, it would be barely run in @ 42,000km.

Yes they still suffer the same issues but have a longer life span where the later .2   4 litre motors are proving themselves to be somewhat bullet proof much like the Metzger from my understanding 

[NBTBRV8]

16 minutes ago, Stephen Tinker said:

Educate me - I'm assuming that the advertised "G Series motor" fitted to this particular GT3 was the later upgraded engine installed because of an earlier failure of the original.

Do these G Series engines still suffer from the original problem or are you relatively safe buying a car like this - disregarding the Yellow colour of course?

At $225k it seems a bargain..... I mean, if that was a Metzger engined GT3, it would be barely run in @ 42,000km.

The engine numbers which start from G2 from memory are regarded as the best and so far very few seem to have failed. Basically any car with a replacement motor after Q3 2018.

[Stephen Tinker]

That's interesting - you would think that if the new G series motor was fitted by a kosher Porsche OPC, then the car would be snapped up by the dozen or so OPC / private dealers around the country and sold on with a healthy profit.  Looking at the Melbourne / Sydney / Adelaide dealers who have very low stocks of good GT3's, this car's owner should have been peppered with attractive offers. I wonder if the dealers know better ??? 

[SS 3]

1 hour ago, Stephen Tinker said:

That's interesting - you would think that if the new G series motor was fitted by a kosher Porsche OPC, then the car would be snapped up by the dozen or so OPC / private dealers around the country and sold on with a healthy profit.  Looking at the Melbourne / Sydney / Adelaide dealers who have very low stocks of good GT3's, this car's owner should have been peppered with attractive offers. I wonder if the dealers know better ??? 

They know better there is lots of information on Rennlist regarding the 3.8 engine issue - its a design floor which starves the head gear of oil hence the premature wear of the finger followers - the fix - they have increased harding to finger followers and increased the oil pressure - 

To be noted : most cars do not spend consistant time in a track environment bouncing of the redline, Porsche when increasing the capacity for the RS to 4L reduced the rev limit to 8800rpm. This is something that should be considered by .1 owners even say an 8600 RPM limiter. Porsche will never suggest this as the marketing campaign is centered around the 9000rpm redline. 

its such a shame as we all know GT cars are very robust normally. There will be a fix for the issue however it wont be cheap and wont be fully developed until the 10 year engine warranties start to expire in late 2023. Unfortunately the 991.1 will be the GT3 to avoid for the purist as engine issues and GT cars don’t stack up.

[firstone]

So how is the .2 any better?

 

 

[1q2w3e4r]

1 hour ago, firstone said:

So how is the .2 any better?

 

 

Its a totally different engine.  Dry sumped, out of the Cup car

[SS 3]

9 hours ago, firstone said:

So how is the .2 any better?

 

 

I'll elaborate a little

The issue with the (MA175 991.1 GT3) engine (and this applies to the variants in the 911R and 991.1 GT3RS) is an architectural one. The hydraulic tappets "pump down" when run above 86-700 rpm for sustained periods. This in turn means that the pressure that the finger follower is contacting the cam lobe with is varying in pressure. This variance creates bruising on the DLC coating on the finger follower which eventually scabs and falls away allowing the steel cam lobe to start scoring the followers pad. The ECU on these cars measures individual cylinder timing and will put the car in limp mode should the tolerance be exceeded.  

PAG tried addressing this with DLC coated cam lobes to meet the metal hardness of the already DLC finger followers and ally the bruising. They also tried new software with each engine iteration (F and G) to regulate a higher oil pressure to try and feed the hydraulic tappets more oil. Later they tried extra oil galleries in the G series heads to help again with feeding more oil but unfortunately these measures mean that certain cylinder valve train received more oiling than other cylinders. the issue is occurring in the high 8700-9000 rpm range.

For the 991.1 GT3RS they tried a new method to eradicate the issue. They reduced the max RPM to 8800 (but only in 1st gear so they could claim the headline number!). The engine then brings the maximum rpm down incrementally to approx. 8650 in top gear! they also incorporated the DLC coated cam lobes and the additional oil galleries of the G series engine heads. Whilst issues with the 991.1 GT3RS engines are much rarer, they have still occurred in instances where the car has been used in Sport Auto mode repeatedly at the track although data points here are very hard to establish.

For the 911R they opted to get even more conservative with a 8600 hard limiter! This should in theory eliminate the issue as with a manual box its very difficult to shift above 8400 on track in the heat of the moment without hitting the limiter in any case. IMAGE 991.1 valvetrain

The reason Hydraulic lifters were used in the 991.1 GT3 is that they were concerned that the rocker would float from the cam lobe at high RPM. They included a hydraulic dampener remedy this float/slap at high RPM. Unfortunately, as we now know that this is a design flaw that caused the cam lobe to score because there was too much force on the lobe as there was not enough oil running, thus introducing a new oiling system for the G engines. 

(Opinion) The only reason Porsche utilized Hydraulic lifters is because of cost/economics. Hydraulic lifters are prone to valve "pump up" or "bleed down",. Solid lifters are not. Solid lifters are superior in every aspect wrt performance. Period. 

Porsche understood this limiting factor and incorporated "anti-pump-up-lifters", as almost every manufacture does. Which accounts for the stiffer/heavier plunger. This extra cam lobe drag/mass in conjunction with relatively high oil pressures is why they have scoring issues. Excessive mass/drag is an inherent issue with hydraulic lifters. This is why virtually every high RPM motor utilizes solid lifters. They are superior. 
 

 

991.2 GT3 engine

The engine was re-designed with solid lifters in the 991.2 variant, and these were a direct result of the GT3 Cup Car test program after the weakness was identified in the 3.8 road cars MA175 engine. The 3.8 was a 'toe in the water' exercise which led to the 4.0L engine we see in the 911.2 GT3/RS and Cup cars today.
Technically the solid lifters have addressed this and also benefited the engine by allowing a lower oil pressure to be used and this less parasitic losses due to less work for the oil pump and less draw on the crank

The .2 engine also has a new stronger crank that now has an oil feed running through it to feed the cranks bearings. (No evidence to suggest that this was an issue in the .1) Porsche is most likely re-engineering the oil delivery to ensure no oil starvation for the crank bearings, as well as providing a stronger crank to cope with the increased stresses/forces is probably a safeguard  

991.1 Opinion has it that Porsche neglected to obtain sufficient empirical data wrt oil pressures and valvetrain cam lobe stresses at 9k under lateral loads. 

991.2 That is why they have approached this issue from both angles. Eliminating both the inefficient lifter design, and decreasing oil pressure in the valvetrain.

For interest - A graph comparing the HP and torque curves of the 991.2 GT3 and the .1 RS

 

[Stephen Tinker]

Great writeup Scott - thanks for the clarification.

As I understand it, hydraulic lifters are great for lower revolution motors and of course they make servicing a breeze, as setting valve lash "tappets" with solid lifter can be a very time consuming exercise.

You don't often see high revving engines with either the old style screw adjust or hydraulic style valve tappets. Of course, the big downside of solid lifters is the time and effort to remove the camshafts and replace shims when the valve lash needs adjusting because if valve seat pocketing or stretched valve stems - bloody fiddly on multi valve, multi cylinder engines....  🥵

[SS 3]

1 hour ago, Stephen Tinker said:

Of course, the big downside of solid lifters is the time and effort to remove the camshafts and replace shims when the valve lash needs adjusting because if valve seat pocketing or stretched valve stems - bloody fiddly on multi valve, multi cylinder engines....  🥵

I have read somewhere that the current design (991.2 4L) is such that the need for adjustment (shims) is greatly reduced with an expected 250,000kms before being required. I guess time will tell.