996 values coupe/cab manual/tip

[smit2100]

6 minutes ago, Joz said:

Hmmm , I m recently new around these parts but have been watching and sniffing for a while. Does in your opinion a manual C4S trounce a tip turbo with similar Ks?

Purely a hypothetical question 😊
I feel like I’m playing scars game 🤭

Not in a drag.   many car lengths even with only 0.7 bar of boost .  even more from a roll starting in second

[Fishcop]

19 minutes ago, Joz said:

Hmmm , I m recently new around these parts but have been watching and sniffing for a while. Does in your opinion a manual CS4 trounce a tip turbo with similar Ks?

Purely a hypothetical question 😊

Both wear the same clothes - so visually the impact is nearly same.  I could have chased a couple of auto/tip 996 Turbos that were on the market at the same time - and from all accounts the Mezger turbo and tippy work brilliantly together.  But I was drawn the C4S I bought purely on the condition and colour combo AND Manual. Oh and the beautiful unique C4S back end!  But if I could have had the same car/condition/kilometers in turbo for the same price - then I'd definitely have gone turbo!  The unkind amongst you could call the the C4S a poor man's Turbo, but I call it a superb compromise

[Joz]

Ok there are still some lovely auto turbos still available on CS  , other than say color preferences ( which can be significant)  why would you choose a CS over a turbo at the near same price?

Perhaps Ive answered my own question? But?

[Fishcop]

1 minute ago, Joz said:

Ok there are still some lovely auto turbos still available on CS  , other than say color preferences ( which can be significant)  why would you choose a CS over a turbo at the near same price?

Perhaps Ive answered my own question? But?

You won't see the two variants at the same price.  I don't see a manual turbo and a manual C4S (same condition and miles etc...) as comparing apples and apples - the Turbo is going to be the more desirable car and the pricing will reflect this - maybe $100k vs $150k, and that difference drives me personally firmly back into the C4S .  But there are extra things to consider such as running/maintenance costs, insurance etc...

[DT]

12 minutes ago, Joz said:

Ok there are still some lovely auto turbos still available on CS  , other than say color preferences ( which can be significant)  why would you choose a CS over a turbo at the near same price?

Perhaps Ive answered my own question? But?

Doesn’t make sense to me why C4S’s are heading into turbo territory, but then not much makes sense to me in the 911 pricing world these days. C4S’s at double the price of a decent .1 C2 just makes my head hurt. Arguably the C2 is the ‘better’ drive, so I guess you’re paying double for a nice bum. I’m more of a legs man myself.

[Dreamr]

26 minutes ago, Joz said:

Hmmm , I m recently new around these parts but have been watching and sniffing for a while. Does in your opinion a manual C4S trounce a tip turbo with similar Ks?

Purely a hypothetical question 😊
I feel like I’m playing card game 🤭

So .. there are a number of differing opinions and none of them are right or wrong .. just personal.

For me it always had to be a manual. I enjoy driving the car whilst changing gears. As mine is a weekender only, I want maximum enjoyment. So in answer to your question, it would be a manual C4S over a tip turbo.

Besides .. that rear reflector (C4S only) had me at first sight.

 

4 minutes ago, DT said:

Doesn’t make sense to me why C4S’s are heading into turbo territory,

They're really not ...

A 996 Turbo (manual) is now $150k - $160k .. 😲

[Fishcop]

I just had a quick look at the current crop of Turbos on CS... No AU delivered coupes in manual I could spot... (same could almost be said for the C4Ss though too) - it's a tough buyers market at the moment.

The other thing I learnt when I owned early aircooled 911s was that anoraks love numbers... The 996 C4S was delivered in much lower numbers than the C2 AND they made it unique with the rear reflector (heckblade sp?) and the only NA with AWD - better drivers than me can comment on whether one is truly a quicker/better drive than the other.  Add in the roughly 6:1 ratio of tippys to manuals and then consider 20 odd years of varying ownership meaning only a few have the low-low kilometers and book work one looks for when chasing something special for the garage.  For the price bracket - the C4S ticks lots of boxes. 

[smit2100]

48 minutes ago, Fishcop said:

Both wear the same clothes - so visually the impact is nearly same.  I could have chased a couple of auto/tip 996 Turbos that were on the market at the same time - and from all accounts the Mezger turbo and tippy work brilliantly together.  But I was drawn the C4S I bought purely on the condition and colour combo AND Manual. Oh and the beautiful unique C4S back end!  But if I could have had the same car/condition/kilometers in turbo for the same price - then I'd definitely have gone turbo!  The unkind amongst you could call the the C4S a poor man's Turbo, but I call it a superb compromise

Note quite wearing the same clothes.  Doesn't  the turbo have some decent holes stitched in around the hips on both sides. Much more air-cooled in nature.   That's a nice looking stock ride height

[Fishcop]

1 minute ago, smit2100 said:

Note quite wearing the same clothes.  Doesn't  the turbo have some decent holes stitched in around the hips on both sides. Much more air-cooled in nature.   That's a nice looking stock ride height

Well, the Turbo definitely needs it's own point of difference - it gets a flash rear spoiler too   But the C4S gets the Turbo brakes/suspension and hips.  Having had hot rod 911s, I was looking for my first total stocker - the factory ride height on 18" rims is a boon on NSW mid-north coast goat tracks!  Hard for me to pass this ass  

[smit2100]

22 minutes ago, Fishcop said:

Well, the Turbo definitely needs it's own point of difference - it gets a flash rear spoiler too   But the C4S gets the Turbo brakes/suspension and hips.  Having had hot rod 911s, I was looking for my first total stocker - the factory ride height on 18" rims is a boon on NSW mid-north coast goat tracks!  Hard for me to pass this ass  

In terms of washing cars and detailing under my spoiler few weeks ago, I did  ponder how  that reflector could of been put  on the turbo under the rear spoiler,   I would  of then not given two hoots if they then were stuck with relegating the turbo badge being stuck on the reflector .  Could of used the  same epoxy they use on the water cooling pipes. the badge and reflector are then a take it or leave it single part number.   Whats the go with the weeding. the pressure washer missed a few gaps in the pavers,  

[DT]

9 hours ago, Dreamr said:

They're really not ...

A 996 Turbo (manual) is now $150k - $160k .. 😲

Errrr….

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2003-porsche-911-carrera-4s-996-manual-awd-my04/SSE-AD-7238400?pageSource=details&id=SSE-AD-7238400

and

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2002-porsche-911-turbo-996-manual-awd-my02/SSE-AD-5883229?pageSource=details&id=SSE-AD-5883229

 

And a price drop on this C2. I’ll take two C2’s thanks, C2 + C2 = C4S right…?

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/1998-porsche-911-carrera-996-manual/SSE-AD-7306115?pageSource=details&id=SSE-AD-7306115

[P-Kay]

20 minutes ago, DT said:

 

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2002-porsche-911-turbo-996-manual-awd-my02/SSE-AD-5883229?pageSource=details&id=SSE-AD-5883229

 

I am not sure you can compare that vehicle as it is an import and the interior is not to everyone's taste. I believe the statement of @Dreamr is very valid

[DT]

10 minutes ago, P-Kay said:

I am not sure you can compare that vehicle as it is an import and the interior is not to everyone's taste. I believe the statement of @Dreamr is very valid

OMG I clicked on it… someone pass me the hand sanitizer

[KGB]

11 hours ago, Dreamr said:

Talk about being thrown in the deep end .. thanks @Fishcop! .. 😅

I also follow the market quite closely and to find a manual C4S for sale in the past few months is like seeing a unicorn .. doesn't happen.

In saying that, one was just listed and sold. Don't know what it sold for but it was listed for $90k .. waaaay to underpriced unless there was something untoward about it.

My current educated guess on pricing for a manual C4S is between $100k - $110k. The gap is dependent on condition and k's. I also believe that one in really good condition with lower than average k's "could" get to $115k. Might have to wait a bit and for the right buyer .. one like this though is easily a $110k car ...

N.B ... this is my own personal opinion on the current C4S market. Am I right or wrong?? .. who knows, but it's where I'm at.

Mine was sold to a mate at market a fortnight ago.  You’re spot on with your price assumptions. Mine was definitely  at the upper end quality wise. 

Atlas Grey, manual, immaculate condition, 63k, fully serviced, 12 months rego. Body perfect. Mechanically excellent. Very desirable car, sorry to tease.

If you’re in the market get your ducks in a row and pounce when the right car comes up.

Ive said it before; no other 911 offers as much bang for your buck (and looks as good).

 

[Niels]

1 hour ago, P-Kay said:

I am not sure you can compare that vehicle as it is an import and the interior is not to everyone's taste. I believe the statement of @Dreamr is very valid

Ok. But it begs the question… why are personal imports so odious? 

Or has this been a ploy of the importers to keep Australian new car prices up by virtue of their higher resale value? 

I asked on another thread about the discounted price of an import and the rule of thumb given was c. 25%

I too am reluctant to even look at an import because of the stigma of it being perceived as a lesser quality car. 

Logic tells me that a good PPI, complete service history and an owner who only drove it to church would trump a ratty Australian delivered one. And yet I am fearful.

 

On a seperate note…. I can’t say I find the interior objectionable. I called and spoke to the owner a while back but not having the turbo twist wheels put me off the car. Trying to pretend it’s a 997 is, to me, a tad tacky. Why do so many do it?

[P-Kay]

@Niels I am not sure there is logic as to why.

Your reasoning is sound regarding a PPI as the buy in is discounted - just need to make sure that is the car you really want as moving it will be a challenge.

I too loath the 997 wheels on a 996. Suspect the reasoning is updated wheels, therefore looks better? Perhaps something similar to the aftermarket LED tail lights to emulate the 997.2?

Maybe people just prefer the look of the later model wheels - I am guilty of personalising my cars, so who am I to judge!

[Sherpa]

1 hour ago, Niels said:

Ok. But it begs the question… why are personal imports so odious? 

They’re all the same car from the same factory. But I think one of the key considerations is environmental conditions these cars face in counties like UK, where corrosion is a pretty big issue. And therefore a perceived higher risk?

Having said that, I wouldn’t worry about a car from somewhere like HK. But, again, that’s my perception.

[Fishcop]

2 hours ago, DT said:

Errrr….

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2003-porsche-911-carrera-4s-996-manual-awd-my04/SSE-AD-7238400?pageSource=details&id=SSE-AD-7238400

and

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2002-porsche-911-turbo-996-manual-awd-my02/SSE-AD-5883229?pageSource=details&id=SSE-AD-5883229

 

And a price drop on this C2. I’ll take two C2’s thanks, C2 + C2 = C4S right…?

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/1998-porsche-911-carrera-996-manual/SSE-AD-7306115?pageSource=details&id=SSE-AD-7306115

The $125k C4S has been sitting a while - it is over priced and the market is speaking.

The blue turbo as noted is a UK car - yep, in Australia, that's an issue 😕

The C2 is lovely and I'd absolutely respect someone preferring that car over spending $100k for a C4S.  But as discussed, they are not the 'same' cars. 

1 hour ago, KGB said:

Mine was sold to a mate at market a fortnight ago.  You’re spot on with your price assumptions. Mine was definitely  at the upper end quality wise. 

Atlas Grey, manual, immaculate condition, 63k, fully serviced, 12 months rego. Body perfect. Mechanically excellent. Very desirable car, sorry to tease.

If you’re in the market get your ducks in a row and pounce when the right car comes up.

Ive said it before; no other 911 offers as much bang for your buck (and looks as good).

 

@KGB your car was superb - new owner has bought well.

 

46 minutes ago, Niels said:

Ok. But it begs the question… why are personal imports so odious? 

Or has this been a ploy of the importers to keep Australian new car prices up by virtue of their higher resale value? 

I asked on another thread about the discounted price of an import and the rule of thumb given was c. 25%

I too am reluctant to even look at an import because of the stigma of it being perceived as a lesser quality car. 

Logic tells me that a good PPI, complete service history and an owner who only drove it to church would trump a ratty Australian delivered one. And yet I am fearful.

 

On a seperate note…. I can’t say I find the interior objectionable. I called and spoke to the owner a while back but not having the turbo twist wheels put me off the car. Trying to pretend it’s a 997 is, to me, a tad tacky. Why do so many do it?

@Niels I'm actually with you on the combo too...  The Lapis blue over Savanna leather was a sought after combo in the UK so you see it there regularly - like any lighter leather you need to clean it regularly or it quickly looks gross.  And I know I'm being unkind to some, but the light grey leather in the 996 is worse, it's the same hue as camry/hilux vinyl (and it really highlights the Toyota assistance provided to Porsche's 996 interior 😕 )

Imports to Australia, particularly Porsche, have always had a stigma - some of it is justified, UK roads remain brutal on cars (just watch some of the Friends Green Porsche videos on youtube) and corrosion is a genuine issue if the car didn't come here early in its life; it's why SA and HK have generally been the preferred RHD import locations.  US cars generally mean the car has been converted from left to right hand drive - which actually isn't a big deal in an early 911 if you know their history and how there were constructed, but they are not 'original'.  The modern stigma relating to imports I suspect is more artificial and self-perpetuating as those that have committed to the AU delivered cars and the associated high costs do not want that value diminished by grey imports.  There is certainly no escaping that 'Australian Delivered' is a selling point and essential for the top end of the market.

"Forward dating" is recognised as the scourge of early 911 ownership and it has crept into some of the later cars   But honestly, if it's just a set of wheels putting you off, that's super easy to resolve!  My main issue with a UK import (and it's probably lame) is the MILES speedometer... Yes I know it can be changed digitally, but I love analogue dials and I'm a metric kid at heart.

[KGB]

38 minutes ago, Fishcop said:

 

@KGB your car was superb - new owner has bought well

Very kind of you.

Speaking with a forum member prior to selling I kinda felt if I were selling on the open market it would have been advertised at $119,900, settling at $115'ish.  In the end I settled for a tad less for a super easy transaction with a friend.  Happy  all 'round.

[Fishcop]

6 minutes ago, KGB said:

Very kind of you.

Speaking with a forum member prior to selling I kinda felt if I were selling on the open market it would have been advertised at $119,900, settling at $115'ish.  In the end I settled for a tad less for a super easy transaction with a friend.  Happy  all 'round.

I think if you're selling to friends, there has to be a little compromise And a first right of refusal if they don't hang on to it!

[LeeM]

 Watch the videos of 'that911guy on Youtube. He's the editor 911 magazine who bought a 996, and has been documenting the mods and repairs he's had to do. Just looking at the underneath of his car shows what to expect from a UK car

[st3ve]

Anyone watch Harry's Garage?  All three present rebuilds (Lancia Zagato, XJ12C and Rolls) all looked a bit daggy but decent enough cars on video and once taken apart they are absolutely riddled with significant structural rust!  Even the 996's over there really rust out in the sills etc, especially ones with aero body kits.  That in addition to badly rusted fasteners, exhausts, brake lines, aluminium parts...   It's a harsh environment alright.

[Sherpa]

or check out Chris Harris’s recent Ferrari Mondial purchase as another example. It was a total mess underneath.

[KGB]

2 hours ago, Fishcop said:

I think if you're selling to friends, there has to be a little compromise And a first right of refusal if they don't hang on to it!

He also got a spare set of OEM wheels and tyres and some other bits, fair price for both of us.  Plus it was a once in 100 years car! 😂

And selling to a friend is perilous, you need to be sure the bloody thing is 200% right, otherwise...

[Dreamr]

7 hours ago, DT said:

Errrr….

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2003-porsche-911-carrera-4s-996-manual-awd-my04/SSE-AD-7238400?pageSource=details&id=SSE-AD-7238400

and

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2002-porsche-911-turbo-996-manual-awd-my02/SSE-AD-5883229?pageSource=details&id=SSE-AD-5883229

 

And a price drop on this C2. I’ll take two C2’s thanks, C2 + C2 = C4S right…?

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/1998-porsche-911-carrera-996-manual/SSE-AD-7306115?pageSource=details&id=SSE-AD-7306115

It's a fair point you're making but I've just read through others posts and my opinion still stands ... although I really should have written "Aussie Delivered" manual Turbo is $150k - $160k .. my bad! 😅

As for the $125k C4S .. @Fishcophit the nail on the head when he said that it's been for sale for far too long being a C4S. The market is definitely speaking. Had it been priced right, it wouldn't have lasted a week ...